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Zartrader
Posted - 2010.04.15 09:19:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Zartrader on 15/04/2010 09:19:43


Originally by: Yarinor
"I can ride my bike with no handle bars"

Just because you can do something and get away with it, doesn't mean it's supposed to be done that way.


Level 4's are designed to be solod.

Level 5's are not designed to be solod.

This is a new player forum please check your facts before posting.

Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions
Posted - 2010.04.15 09:57:00 - [32]
 

Cry MOAR

Yarinor
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.15 10:33:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Zartrader
Edited by: Zartrader on 15/04/2010 09:19:43


Originally by: Yarinor
"I can ride my bike with no handle bars"

Just because you can do something and get away with it, doesn't mean it's supposed to be done that way.


Level 4's are designed to be solod.

Level 5's are not designed to be solod.

This is a new player forum please check your facts before posting.


Lvl 4s were introduced into the game because people were complaining there were no pve content where being ganged would be advantageous.

Then people started to solo lvl 4s and a while later l5s were introduced.

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.04.15 11:53:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Zartrader on 15/04/2010 12:11:41
Pointless retort deleted.

Beki 250
Posted - 2010.04.15 12:38:00 - [35]
 

I don't want to break up the argument, but I have a couple of observations about Level 4s.

The first time I made it to Level 4, it took a long time, because I did it entirely in the corporation's Storage Division, declining all combat missions. I actually had a question, that didn't get answered, about whether I would need a freighter to do Level 5 Courier missions. Storage Division isn't anything like doing a kill mission agent course, naturally. Level 4 requires a small industrial and some of the missions require you to navigate more than two systems away.

I've since run several Level 4s as part of a fleet. I was not at Level 4 myself for these. They were kind of fun if you were with a decent group of people. I neither know nor care whether they were designed to be run solo.

This brings me to my current issue. One of my characters just moved up to Level 3. The last time one of my characters reached Level 3, I didn't make it through the first mission. At all. I had to have someone else finish it for me after losing two Drakes.

This time, though, I'm getting really bored after about ten missions. The last one I had, doesn't matter what the name was, had rewards of 700,000 ISK for finishing, about the same for the time bonus, and either 1300 or 1700 LPS. Time limit was 4 hours and 45 minutes.

It sucked. There were only about 12 - 20 reds, but it took me forever to kill them. I kited the whole mission with a Prophecy doing about 30 hp of damage per laser per salvo. My shields got down to about 10% once.

This is certainly nothing to brag about. I spent most of the mission hauling minerals on the other monitor once I knew my passive shield tank was sufficient. The only activity required on my part was to change targets.

Now let's forget about my fit. It works for me, so I don't care what you use. :) The problem is that the mission just didn't require much of anything from me. If I had been able to do more DPS, it still wouldn't have required much from me. It just wouldn't have taken so long.

As I said, I've only done about ten of these Level 3s, and one was a courier mission, but about the only way I can think of to make this particular mission interesting would be to bring in some other people and at least get some practice at small fleet tactics.

To me these seem like the kind of missions people are talking about when they say are 'grinding' missions.

I know that, if I want more of a challenge, I could just go back to an Executioner and try it again, but I'm not that much of a masochist.

So what is the general consensus? Are threes and fours just endless gun battles and I need to get used to it? Please keep in mind that I actually did 1s and 2s before the 3s, so I know they can be different.

BTW, the big difference between the Level 3 where I lost the Drakes and this set is that I can now use Core Defence Field Purgers. (Thanks to Lord Nagumo for the tip on that. I just didn't get a chance to try it until lately.)

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.04.15 13:10:00 - [36]
 

@ Beki: I think what you suffer from is not enough skills or high enough skill levels.

I have 2 characters both can do level 4's, one has more then 4 mil skill points in gunnery, the other a bit more then 1.2 mil. The damage the one does with the most skill points is 5 to 6 times more then the one with 1.2 mil skillpoints.
The 4 mil skill points char can pop frigs (in a BS) at 120 KM distance, the 1.2 mil char hits, if he's lucky some ships at 25 km though the most damage comes from his drones.

Yes when you start doing level 3's or 4's they seem like endless battles. I remember that the blockade took me 2 hours or more alone in a BS. Today I do that same mission in 20-40 minutes, if I'm alone.

But the more skills you acquire, the higher you train those skills, the faster you'll slice through missions. Which is good, since in the end missions are quite boring to do.

There are a few missions that can be blitzed, where you have to just go here or there or pick this or that up, and once you did so the mission completes so you do not have to blow up endless rows of rats. Like reckon 1-3, cargo delivery, and one where you need to blow up a repair station which is a level 3 mission.
Though you'll miss out on the bounties and salvage/ loot afterwards.


Zartrader
Posted - 2010.04.15 13:15:00 - [37]
 

Yes that's what they are. Basic AI and a few simple rules to follow will get you through. Of course mistakes can be punished, especially for a new player in a new ship he is not used to. I suspect we have all lost a ship or two in Level 4's, I have anyway.

But ultimately they are a grind fest. Someone with low DPS or tank will take a lot longer but there is not much more risk, except trying to push things too far and not warp out on time. Or miss the fact they are being scrambled until too late. Or forget to align when the tank is failing. All basic stuff you learn from level 3's.

Now I'm in a faction ship a mission that took me say 2 hours now takes me 30 mins or less so it does get better, but by that time you're on autopilot and watching TV. Even if I totally mess up the mission I'm at no real risk at all, there is no skill needed.

I really wish there was a level 4.5 where the AI was similar to the Sleepers or the missions were just more varied and challenging.

So yes your findings are right.

Beki 250
Posted - 2010.04.15 13:36:00 - [38]
 

I spent months figuring out how to work the agent system to my best advantage, and now this.

I think I'll throw myself off the back porch.

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.04.15 14:34:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Beki 250
I spent months figuring out how to work the agent system to my best advantage, and now this.

I think I'll throw myself off the back porch.


Well you can always do Sleeper sites, they can pay well. Exploration can be fun but in Hi Sec its not worth the rewards usually, they are more geared to smaller ships.

Beki 250
Posted - 2010.04.22 11:31:00 - [40]
 

That brings up some other issues, and there may be a question in here somewhere.

I mine almost daily for the first three hours after DT, and am currently working a fairly Hi Sec area (0.63). What are the chances that there will be any undiscovered Sleeper sites in the region after 1500 Eve? There are usually about 15 people in system, and three of them are me.

I'm also having trouble building up my confidence for using more than one character at a time for missions. After hundreds of hours using two for mining, I went up to three, and can handle two Retrievers and an Iteron V now with only occasional glitches, but I've only tried team missions a few times and wasn't happy about my personal multi-tasking capabilities. Is this something that will come with time? Will it always be harder than mining?

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.04.22 12:32:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Beki 250
That brings up some other issues, and there may be a question in here somewhere.

I mine almost daily for the first three hours after DT, and am currently working a fairly Hi Sec area (0.63). What are the chances that there will be any undiscovered Sleeper sites in the region after 1500 Eve? There are usually about 15 people in system, and three of them are me.

I'm also having trouble building up my confidence for using more than one character at a time for missions. After hundreds of hours using two for mining, I went up to three, and can handle two Retrievers and an Iteron V now with only occasional glitches, but I've only tried team missions a few times and wasn't happy about my personal multi-tasking capabilities. Is this something that will come with time? Will it always be harder than mining?


You only find sleepers in wormholes.
Exploration sites should dynamically appear through out all of EVE. Once one site has been cleared it moves to a new area with full content afaik.

About doing missions with 2 characters fleet them up then use (I forgot how you do thatEmbarassed I think it was in fleet just right click and then show damage modifications) a small window where you can see the members in the fleet and their damage. This way you can monitor if the character you don't have the window open for is taking too much damage.
On top of that when I combo mission, I play in windowed mode, then have the 2 screens so arranged that I can see the right part of the bottom client underneath the top client.
This way I can see agro, and how the drones are doing on the second client, combined with the fleet damage window things run pretty smooth this way.



FOX Nyris
Posted - 2010.04.22 13:00:00 - [42]
 

I am very new to EVE , But what help me see what i could fly the safest in terms of skills were the certificates.It helped me out understand that ships are take more then the skills to ride them. An I would try one more time before going to WOW.

Nikolai Bazarov
Amarr
Circus Mining Co.
Posted - 2010.04.22 16:24:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Faye taj
Well with the recent loss of my first raven that popped just like that i feel disillusioned to play eve so is there any way to make a ton of isk fast to recoup my loss or is it back to wow?


PLEX?

Cate Fenring
Caldari
Posted - 2010.04.23 08:18:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Cate Fenring on 23/04/2010 08:27:08
Originally by: Yarinor
"I can ride my bike with no handle bars"

Just because you can do something and get away with it, doesn't mean it's supposed to be done that way.

I think Zartrader is right. If I can solo some with an ill-fitted drake on a low SP character and do harder ones together with a corp member with equal gear and a little more SP then it should be easily soloable with a well fitted BS.

@Beki: you sure your mission wasn't against frigates when you had equiped just medium weapons and no drones? ;-) And if not: you could swap some low slot defensive modules for damage enhancers then.

Beki 250
Posted - 2010.04.23 11:37:00 - [45]
 

I didn't think Sleepers sounded right. Things might make more sense if I just said archeological sites. I was curious about whether they would be worth looking for 3 hours after DT.

I use two monitors, so keeping track of two ships during missions isn't much of a problem. The problem I've had was focusing more on one ship than the other. I usually focus on the ship with the aggro, and the other ship sits around more than 30% of the time. That's not bad, but kind of defeats the purpose of using two ships.

I don't remember any frigates at all in that Level 3 mission. I know how hard they are to kill with Medium lasers. :) The ship could, and, I think, did, carry three drones, but I don't usually use T1 Light Scouts against cruisers. They just don't seem to be able to do much damage.

Beki 250
Posted - 2010.04.23 11:42:00 - [46]
 

Oh. I don't use low slot defensive modules. Especially when I fly Amarr I fill up the lows with Tracking Enhancers and Power Diagnostics.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.04.23 19:46:00 - [47]
 

Ships go boom that's what they are for..

But I definitely understand that it can be frustrating at first. The jump from L3s to L4's pretty big. The biggest being that you now have to look for scrambling frigs. I found frigates to be the most dangerous thing to new players in L4's.
Because's they are are the ones that are going to keep you from warping out.

I'd say that T2 light drone skills should be considered a pre-requisite for running L4s.

As far as loosing ships it happens you gotta be able to take it in stride. I've a Myrmidon in the first L4 I ever tried because I didn't deal with the scrambling frigs and couldn't gtfo when my tank broke.
I lost a Brutix with a full rack of Modal neutrons when I decided it would be ok to try a L3 in a nearby lowsec system got a little tunnel visioned and missed the guy in local until his Covops had the point on me to hold me until his Domi got there.

My most recent loss was a Domi in worlds collide when I was helping a buddy on the phone to get his Vent working and forgot to turn on my tank until I looked down and thought hey where'd my armor go? to make matters worse I was so flustered and stupid that I forgot to actually loot my f-ing wreck afterwards so bye bye 4 350 prototypes at 9 mill a pop plus the ship was over 3 months old so plat insurance (I don't bother to re-insure if a ship survives it's first term) cost me about a 100 mill to replace the ship and all the rigs/fittings.

I will say this from my observation the Raven is a lot less forgiving than a Domi or a drake. The Raven pretty much has to be flowed aggressively with a lot of micromanagement of cap and shield boosters. Compared to the domi or drake that have epic tanks that can be pretty much turned on and ignored.

My buddy has lost a couple Ravens at this point typically because we missed a scram frig or some other bit of boneheadedness.

These are the things you'll laugh at later if you continue to play.

As others pointed out. You can't be getting too attached to your ships and you have to be able to roll with one getting blown out from under you. It's just a part of the game and it's part of what makes it interesting in the first place.

Because the only way you can ensure a ship isn't going to get blown up is to leave it docked up and what's the fun in that.

L4's are generally considered pretty low risk but that's usually by people who've been playing a while and have good skills (both character and player) They can indeed be quite risky if you are willing to push your limits as a new player.

When I started doing them I couldn't even fit large repers and guns on my Domi. I put medium arties and couple of medium armor repper 2s and an afterburner and kited everything mainly running around in a big circle with my drones chewing stuff up.

Nowadays unless there is some reason to move (The Score) I just warp in and sit in place with Sentry drones out. I know the missions I do well enough to know what kind of tank I need either got with light tank heavy gank or vise versa.

To give you an idea of the kind of time frame we're talking about my characters Birthdate was August 09 so that's about 8 months. I still feel like a newb ;-) and have another 6 months on my skill plan until I'll feel like I'm properly skilled for efficient mission running in my Domi.

I suggest getting EFT and EVEmon and spend some time building a skill plan. Take a typical Tech 2 build for the ships you think you'll want to fly and use the import function of EVEmon to get the skills you need for it loaded. Then look at the recommended certificates and add those too. Then go and look at EFT again and check each module for the affecting skills and add those too.

Well I could go on and on after that but I'm running out of characters. Basically if you can live with some differed gratification then this game might be for you. If you can't stand waiting a few months to accomplish something then you'd probably be best served by WOW.


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