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dischordia
Gallente
Knights Of Anarchy
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:03:00 - [601]
 

Originally by: Ethan Hawk
we get our walls back... this is how germanz like it!

thx CCP for yet another useless change instead of focusing on real problems. I would really like to know which school your project manager visited... in Germany we call it Baumschule!

Get your **** together and start working on problems your community, your CUSTOMER, is asking for as of the start of Dominion.


They have been with all the mass testing on sisi .... you cant cure cancer over night ya know

Nikita Takeaway
T-Wrecks
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:07:00 - [602]
 

Edited by: Nikita Takeaway on 14/04/2010 10:13:42
I personally have deepsafes currently. I understand the need to fix the "exploit" of the game mechanics (AKA Poseidon) that made it possible to create deepsafes since this method is also used to avoid gatecamps. This said, I believe that there should be a method of creating a deep safespot. Using the following criteria;

A. Deepsafe must be able to be found using probes.
B. Must be created using a valid game mechanic.
C. Usable by any player new or old

I have the following possible solutions;

1. Implement 6 warp to spots at a max range of 250AU or some other preset distance in the following locations N,S,E,W,Up,Down centered on the sun. Safespots could then be created using the normal warp between locations and drop a BM.

2. Implement a random warp command that warps you in a random direction for a max of 250AU or some other preset distance. This command could be issued from a BM or a celestial as an example.

In conjunction with either of these methods it would be a good idea to make the scan deviation on deepspace probes less otherwise someone probing with max skills using deepspace probes still has to deal with a possible scan deviation of 25% of the max scan range for the probe which would be around 64AU. It would also be possible to increase the scan range of deepspace probes to allow the creation of safespots using either method above at any desired distance.

All of the above would still allow the creation of deepsafes, would ensure that having the correct skillset still means you can find the deepsafe, and would be in keeping with the "The universe doesn't look like a dark scary place, it is a dark scary place" lore in that even when you think you are safe, you might not be.

As far as the deleting object or ships that are currently outside of the boundaries you have set, I completely disagree with this. It is obviously possible to modify the location of items in game as evidenced by previous patches. For example removing fitted items from ships.

If CCP desires to level the playing field as far as ""older "haves" and newer "have-nots" "" then there are additional steps required most notably removal of all items such as T2 BPOs or anything else that a newer "have-not" cannot obtain. While a desire to reduce the division between these two groups might be desired by some, it is not in line with your previous policies or the sandbox design of the game. If a player has been playing in the sandbox a long time and has built a sand castle ala Castle Neuschwanstein Wiki then a player who just started playing in the sandbox should have to invest a similar amount of time to achieve that.

* Edited to correct spelling error

Tarhim
Caldari
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:07:00 - [603]
 

Originally by: Kyra Felann

I read most of the thread, but I must have missed this part. All I saw was gnashing of teeth, whining, nerd rage, calling CCP names, and many tears being shed.


Naah, in this whole thread there are some three pages or so of reasonable concerns.

Melor Rend
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:09:00 - [604]
 

Originally by: Serpents smile
Originally by: Melor Rend
IRabblerabblerabble


Earth to Melor, Earth calling Melor rend.

Originally by: CCP Lemur
We've altered our plan addressing various concerns that you all voiced here in a reasonable manner. There will be a follow-up blog later today or tomorrow.



Didn't see that post early enough. I'm so terribly sorry good sir. I hope you can forgive me for my cataclysmic mistake.

My post still is totally valid though. If CCP had any devs that played EVE since Dominion then they could have invested the man hours for this crappy dev blog for something more useful (because they'd know that their "solution" doesn't actually solve anything). At least they wouldn't have had to rely on their customers to tell them that their design decisions suck.

Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:22:00 - [605]
 

I didn't know these deep safes existed. So it doesn't affect me at all, since I'm a poor sucker with no valuable ships anyways. However I can see several reasons why CCP would want to do this. For the technical people among us, this should be quite obvious... So I won't detail those reasons. In the end of the day, it seems a good patch. Those who don't understand the bigger picture are whining about the loss of their super-capitals (if not moved in time), as we have seen earlier in this thread.

If I got that right, then this is the case: Say a system is 100 AU in diameter, right? Like last planet to sun is 50 AU, and obviously to get to the other end of the orbit line is 50 AU. In total that means you have 120 AU space effectively available. Why 120?

| o -------- SUN -------- # |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - 120 AU

| = Limit for deepest bookmark
o = Farthest planet
# = Other end of orbit line

I could be wrong but this is the way I see it.

The question remains whether this is only horizontally applicable (line of celestial arrangement) or spherical (which would make more sense).

If I'm wrong correct me please.

Narfas Deteis
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:47:00 - [606]
 

I hope CCP will expand EVE using those vast amounts of space beetween solar systems - for example creating some kind of new, more realistic and exciting exploration content.

Instaed, we will probably receive bubbles of space connected via stargates.

Basically, it's dungeon, not galaxy. I'm disappointed.

BIZZAROSTORMY
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:47:00 - [607]
 

Cool, so I can make a bang on 10au SS and then just mwd over the edge into the void, whereupon nobody can warp to me, no matter what probe results they get?

Lovely. Thats even SAFER than a deep safe.

Amberlamps
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:47:00 - [608]
 

Edited by: Amberlamps on 14/04/2010 10:51:37
Edited by: Amberlamps on 14/04/2010 10:48:35
I don't usually swear but.... WHAT A ****ING JOKE.

Quote:
(docking, cloaking, warping around an awful lot)


Love the "Sandbox" that Eve apparently is.

Quote:
we strongly recommend that you move them prior to May 18th.


Sounds like instead of moving the items to the nearest station you'd prefer the people who have assets in space to have to subscribe for a month. Unfortunately for them they will subscribe for a month and likely not be able to move those assets. Theres a ****ing reason why people have GSC in deep space as they're usually unable to move the contents safely and its an easter egg to come back to in the future. To make it worse for those that do sub up for the month just to move the stuff they will be presented with one of the failest expansions going and most likely not be able to log on for a full week as the bugs will be so epic in proportions even your Nan would be horrified.

Quote:
What we're doing


Taking the easy route as ALWAYS, Nerf what you initially allowed. You cannot say you didn't allow it as it has been around for multiple expansions and has gone unhindered.

CCP... you fail, you really do. You bigged Tyrannis up like it was an epic expansion, T3 frigates, Comet mining and now.... we get Dot to Dot on the planets which has little content to what you implied it would. Currently there is no real reason to bother with Planetary interaction.

Originally by: BIZZAROSTORMY
Cool, so I can make a bang on 10au SS and then just mwd over the edge into the void, whereupon nobody can warp to me, no matter what probe results they get?

Lovely. Thats even SAFER than a deep safe.


I just read that... Amazing idea, thanks. Lets keep it quiet!

However I believe it would be hard to get a 10AU Bookmark if you're unable to driftwarp when you log off.



Xia Long
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:48:00 - [609]
 

ok there are just 2 points i don't find very "smart"

1- why do you (ccp) have to delete from the game every assets that r lyin in those deep safe spots?just 'cause it requires less time than moving them to a closer spot?

2- what's goin to happen to 0.0 warfare?those safespots r not legit? fine, but are the only way people can try experience that aspect of your game that u publicise on trailers, i've been on both sides, lost 3 ships waiting from 20 to 54 minutes to load a grid, and popped some hostile ships while they were doin the same

that said i have no deep space safe, and no expensive assets out in space aswell...but i never had the chance to win a T2 BPO lottery...will you remove T2 BPOs aswell?maybewithout givin a single isk/object in return Wink

cya

BIZZAROSTORMY
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:53:00 - [610]
 

Originally by: Amberlamps


Originally by: BIZZAROSTORMY
Cool, so I can make a bang on 10au SS and then just mwd over the edge into the void, whereupon nobody can warp to me, no matter what probe results they get?

Lovely. Thats even SAFER than a deep safe.


I just read that... Amazing idea, thanks. Lets keep it quiet!

However I believe it would be hard to get a 10AU Bookmark if you're unable to driftwarp when you log off.





Well I plan to just bring my deep safes back to exactly 10au by pingponging a few times. Ill get within a few hundred Km's Im sure.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:53:00 - [611]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: CCP Lemur
Dear players, the blog was published after I left the office and I just finished reading through all 11 pages.

This man posted a picture explaining all of the "but what with spots between two celestials?" concerns.

More changes are in discussion right now and I'll let you know as soon as we reached a decision.


Did you not think, even for a second, that that sort of clear, concise explanation should have been in the devblog? By not communicating clearly you are creating work for yourself and damaging your own reputation, and you only have yourself to blame.


Working as intended. Rolling Eyes
Also: same old same old

Viscount Hood
Gallivanting Travel Company
Band of Wanderers
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:55:00 - [612]
 

I have only one deep safe in JZV which is 300au out and I haven't been there for 3 years. Its no big deal to me.

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2010.04.14 10:59:00 - [613]
 

Good move CCP. I like the progress this game is doing and have done for the 7 years :D

Tarhim
Caldari
Posted - 2010.04.14 11:03:00 - [614]
 

Originally by: Narfas Deteis
I hope CCP will expand EVE using those vast amounts of space beetween solar systems - for example creating some kind of new, more realistic and exciting exploration content.



For those vast amounts of deep space, you may wish for either realistic or exciting content.

Unless odd hydrogen atom excites you, of course.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.04.14 11:05:00 - [615]
 

Originally by: CCP Lemur
We've altered our plan addressing various concerns that you all voiced here in a reasonable manner. There will be a follow-up blog later today or tomorrow.

You are probably better off posting it tomorrow morning than late today, oh and include pretty pictures. Wink

Narfas Deteis
Posted - 2010.04.14 11:19:00 - [616]
 

Originally by: Tarhim
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
I hope CCP will expand EVE using those vast amounts of space beetween solar systems - for example creating some kind of new, more realistic and exciting exploration content.



For those vast amounts of deep space, you may wish for either realistic or exciting content.

Unless odd hydrogen atom excites you, of course.


For example finding abadoned/wrecked ships (both players and NPCs) or mining comets. You don't need to be sarcastic.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.04.14 11:21:00 - [617]
 

Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Originally by: Tarhim
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
I hope CCP will expand EVE using those vast amounts of space beetween solar systems - for example creating some kind of new, more realistic and exciting exploration content.



For those vast amounts of deep space, you may wish for either realistic or exciting content.

Unless odd hydrogen atom excites you, of course.


For example finding abadoned/wrecked ships (both players and NPCs) or mining comets. You don't need to be sarcastic.


I think he does.

Tarhim
Caldari
Posted - 2010.04.14 11:34:00 - [618]
 

Originally by: Narfas Deteis

For example finding abadoned/wrecked ships (both players and NPCs) or mining comets. You don't need to be sarcastic.


Sure, wrecks, comets to be mined, hulks of odd generation ships and stuff like that would be exciting (for a while, at least).

However it will be as realistic as nonmoving celestias and respawning asteroids.

Grohalmatar
The Tuskers
Posted - 2010.04.14 11:59:00 - [619]
 

10 AU is just too small and seems very arbitrary. Why not 64 AU? Doesn't this change make Deep Space probes much less useful?

Dana Serenity
Caldari
Guerillaz
Posted - 2010.04.14 12:01:00 - [620]
 

While I agree with this in pricipal, I think the way its being implemented is not so good. I think deep safespots WITHIN THE CONFINES OF A SYSTEM are perfectly fine. Any player new or old can create them and therefore there is a level playing field. Obviously older legacy bookmarks that are 1000's of AU away from the sun should still be deleted.

Personally I think a better option would but to delete all bookmarks that fall beyond the distance from the sun of the furthest planet plus a few AU to allow for complexes to be bookmarked which fall outside this scope. Any bookmark within this range would remain intact. Creating good safespots is a tactical gameplay element to the game and should remain so.

JusCheckin Jita
Posted - 2010.04.14 12:03:00 - [621]
 

So wait, you can't warp to anyone past that point? Okay, great! Lets just watch as everyone makes bookmarks next to the border, moves there alt within 5km of it, brings in there carrier, crosses the border, and now assigns fighters into the system while probers and everyone else can't warp to them.

Broken. Already. New fix please

Tarhim
Caldari
Posted - 2010.04.14 12:18:00 - [622]
 

Originally by: Dana Serenity

Personally I think a better option would but to delete all bookmarks that fall beyond the distance from the sun of the furthest planet plus a few AU to allow for complexes to be bookmarked which fall outside this scope. Any bookmark within this range would remain intact. Creating good safespots is a tactical gameplay element to the game and should remain so.


Um, this is exectly what is planned - anything within distance of farthest celestial + 10AU from star is fine.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.04.14 12:31:00 - [623]
 

Quote:

You are probably better off posting it tomorrow morning than late today, oh and include pretty pictures



... and don't forget to put in a GREAT video, showing unique texture ships, huge lagless battles of hundreds, fantastic in game voice quality, fleets of carebears migrating in 0.0 and some of the best resolution detailed planet interactable structures!

And target painters, lots of them.


Quote:

Broken. Already. New fix please



New fix = solar system wide fish tub, you get to 10AU, you bounce over the glass walls!

Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.04.14 12:45:00 - [624]
 

After some research I believe the appropriate response for such an ill-concieved proposal expressed in the parlance of the Internet forum is ...

picard-facepalm.jpg


Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2010.04.14 13:19:00 - [625]
 

Wait 0.0 being safe?

Sajeera
Posted - 2010.04.14 13:26:00 - [626]
 

Making the sandbox even smaller, no deep space anymore??!!

Whos idea is this, Nozh again?

Its bad advertising for the game itself, imagine what will learn about space in EvE some newbie pilot in his first flying hours:

"So dude this is called stargate, behing the stargate there is an invisible wall."

"Lolwut??!!!!"

"Yeah, you heard me, its invisible wall dude, welcome to Age of Conan reloaded"

Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.04.14 13:33:00 - [627]
 

Originally by: Sajeera
Making the sandbox even smaller, no deep space anymore??!!

Whos idea is this, Nozh again?

Its bad advertising for the game itself, imagine what will learn about space in EvE some newbie pilot in his first flying hours:

"So dude this is called stargate, behing the stargate there is an invisible wall."

"Lolwut??!!!!"

"Yeah, you heard me, its invisible wall dude, welcome to Age of Conan reloaded"



I don't think that's entirely accurate. Space will expand behind the 10 AU barrier. It's just that you can't warp to it or scan things behind it. That's a subtle difference.

Punkt Landung
Posted - 2010.04.14 13:42:00 - [628]
 

I see they’ve changed their minds now, here’s my thoughts as I’d already written em!

I read once that the original Eve developers realized fairly quickly that the universe they created could function as a viable social experiment where player actions and interactions would create something truly unique that no team of software developers could hope to create with code alone. I suspect that the original hope would have been to support these unique player creations and allow them to be implemented into general game play.

Jules Verne said, "Anything one man can imagine, other men can make real." In Eve anything that can be discovered or instigated by players IS real, until it is destroyed by CCP. There are places within the virtual worlds of the servers that have never been discovered and still lie, secretly hiding, from both players and developers. Surely this is part of the magic of the game?

In seeking to circumvent some of the limitations of the Eve universe, players have demonstrated that virtual exploration can unlock areas of space that were believed to be inaccessible. By using a ‘bug’ or an ‘exploit’ they have not only facilitated smoother game mechanics but they have also created an impression of the vastness of Eve space and the epic scale that must be a cornerstone of any ‘space’ game. The concept of people storing ships and supplies unimaginable distances out in space is just really cool. I appreciate that CCP never intended this to happen, but the fact that it has, has actually made the game scale even more impressive.

You cannot have a void where all players are in direct sight of anyone who chooses to look for them. The central appeal of a wilderness is its ‘emptiness’ of other human life. Your own country of Iceland has only 320,000 inhabitants and epic landscapes to inspire the human soul – how inspiring would these landscapes be if your population was 3 million and the mountains were covered in houses?

OK, so your computers can’t cope with this sort of expansion? Fair enough, explain it and I suspect most people will grudgingly except that technology has its limits. If you can’t deliver the vast lonely universe we want then we’ll have to accept the one you give us. BUT, I, like many others, can live without sim city on planets, new ship models, planet textures, browsers, FPS interaction, walking on stations etc, etc, etc – we want a truly massive, deep, dark, immersive space game and all the meaningless fluff is just not necessary.

The Eve universe is already unique, artistic, beautiful, and awe inspiring. You can’t make it more so by squeezing it into smaller and prettier rooms. If so, the concept of ‘space’ becomes meaningless; you might as well call planets and stations, ‘cities’ and put them under fixed sized ‘bio-domes’ connected by motorways.

Sajeera
Posted - 2010.04.14 13:54:00 - [629]
 

Originally by: Dan O'Connor

I don't think that's entirely accurate. Space will expand behind the 10 AU barrier. It's just that you can't warp to it or scan things behind it. That's a subtle difference.


Thats exactly how it was in AoC, you see things, you just cant go there because there is an invisible wall that stops you.

One of the main 3 or 4 things people were pointing for the reason they don't like the game was this - invisible walls everywhere.

Funcom tried to improved it a little but they were limited by their engine and bad design decisions they made early during the development.

Now EvE is a game that don't have these problems and they want to implement them willingly??!! Rolling Eyes

Leave everything as it is just remove the mechanic for making deep safes or introduce a legal way for creating them.

This invissible wall will hurt your game more then you can imagine.

Tarhim
Caldari
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:04:00 - [630]
 

Originally by: Sajeera

Thats exactly how it was in AoC, you see things, you just cant go there because there is an invisible wall that stops you.



You don't understand. You will be able to still go anywhere where you could have before, even 5000AU from sun. Just without a warp drive.


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