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Belthog
Posted - 2010.04.13 22:47:00 - [511]
 

You jackasses are amazing. God forbid there should be any advantage to having played this game a long time. Or for using some strategy. Really there are 64AU probes and i can cover a lot of distance with those. So you make safes outside of scan range good on you, that proves your not ******ed. Unlike CCP who obviously is. **** off some more older players why don't you. Oh thats right it's what you guys spend your days doing for kicks.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.04.13 22:48:00 - [512]
 

Originally by: CCP on Sisi
When you log out in space, the grid you log out in stays in the database. When something is dropped in space ('cans, ships, drones, etc.), that grid stays in the database. Those grids exist in the database until what caused them to be stored is gone, even piloted ships that logged out years ago.

As I understand it, ANY object whatsoever (be it cans, unpiloted ships or frozen corpses), will VANISH after 30days of NOT tinkering with it..
Thus ANY grid, that has stuff on it will be removed from those database calls after 30days.
Cant see the problem here?!?!

If thats not the case yet - IMPLEMENT it ASAP!

Originally by: CCP on Sisi
When scanning in the system (ship or probe scan), the server looks through ALL those stored grids to see if you find anything there, no matter how far away they are. The more grids are stored, the more system resources are used for the scan.

This extra database load is one of the reasons for lag, and it has been growing as the game has grown older and players have logged out never to return.

Then the grid where NOTHING is in (logged out ships with pilots in them for example) should be deleted from that database THE MOMENT the ship vanishes due log-off.
Is that so hard to implement?

I mean.. if the ship is gone and nothing is on grid anymore (even when it takes 30days).. why keep the grid in the database for probe-scannable stuff?
Also.. if I can't probe for cans/corpses/whatever.. why keep those grid info in the database for probe-scanning in the first place?

Originally by: CCP on Sisi
CCP want to purge part of these stored grids, and want to make the system use resources more efficiently. As part of that change Deep Safes would not be scanable at all.

If it should become more efficient, then CCP please explain the above and why your server cant work efficient now..

ElanMorin6
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.04.13 22:49:00 - [513]
 

Originally by: Driven Marcelli
1) you guys explained in SiSi why 5k safespots were causing lag(for thoes who dont know if you log out in space at a safespot, the database still keeps a record of your loging and therfor "existing" in the grid because when you log back in you warp back to that grid point, and that when you scan the scan serverside looks through all posible grid cells that have Anything (even a unancored can or abandoned drone or one or both logoffski "markers" that only "exists" on the database)(reguardless of if the scan in question can actualy see them) them including the ones that are 5+kau out and have people who logofskied in that cell(reguardless of how long ago the logoffski happend), and haveing to go through all the posible grids including ones that basicaly dont realy exist anymore because the logoffski account is suspeded for whatever reason) is part of whats causing the servers to go nuts. (from what I understand they partly want to purge the ones that are from way back and partly want to make the individual system files more compact and thus faster for the system to page through when it has to do so and partly because some of the "WAY Deep space" safespots just will not be scannable AT ALL when you switch to the new database handleing)


This is not how grids work. Play around with grid-fu for a while and you'll understand why. "Grids" don't exist in usused space, they're created strictly on an as-needed basis. Basically, grids are just a figment of your imagination.*

* And the imagination of the collision-detection engine.


Lucita Thoron
Minmatar
Black Souls Industries
Posted - 2010.04.13 22:49:00 - [514]
 

Edited by: Lucita Thoron on 13/04/2010 22:50:27
"If you have characters in ships outside this distance, the ship will be destroyed and your capsule will be returned to the station that your clone is set to."

Lets say im inactive and my alt is loged in Nyx 100 AU deep spot. Im returning to game after May 18... Im in pod, without Nyx.

WTF?

Now imagine Titan chars...

Is CCP serious with that? LACK OF IMAGINATION DEVS?

ElanMorin6
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.04.13 22:54:00 - [515]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: CCP on Sisi
When you log out in space, the grid you log out in stays in the database. When something is dropped in space ('cans, ships, drones, etc.), that grid stays in the database. Those grids exist in the database until what caused them to be stored is gone, even piloted ships that logged out years ago.



Keep in mind that CCP learned about grid-fu from GARPA, I wouldn't expect some random dev logged into Sisi to have any clue at all how grids actually work or how the server manages them.

There's no difference to the DB between having objects sitting at 10 AU or 10,000 AU other than the stuff at 10,000 AU tends to persit much longer

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.04.13 22:58:00 - [516]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 13/04/2010 22:24:12
Another player posted what I'm about to write here. However, it was in Wall-Of-Text format, and written in two very long sentences, so I've tried to write it here in a more readable format.

NOTE: I do not vouch for the validity of this information, but it is supposedly directly from CCP devs on the Sisi server.

---

TECHNICAL REASON FOR THIS CHANGE!

When you log out in space, the grid you log out in stays in the database. When something is dropped in space ('cans, ships, drones, etc.), that grid stays in the database. Those grids exist in the database until what caused them to be stored is gone, even piloted ships that logged out years ago.

When scanning in the system (ship or probe scan), the server looks through ALL those stored grids to see if you find anything there, no matter how far away they are. The more grids are stored, the more system resources are used for the scan.

[My guess would also be that there is also an impact when warping, since you have to be able to arrive in the right grid, but this is my own guess]

This extra database load is one of the reasons for lag, and it has been growing as the game has grown older and players have logged out never to return.

CCP want to purge part of these stored grids, and want to make the system use resources more efficiently. As part of that change Deep Safes would not be scanable at all [reason unknown].

---

Now, this is an explanation that I can understand the reason behind! If it is in any way true, then THAT is what CCP Lemur should have written!



my not-so-technical reason why that's a ****ty reason: people will re-make the same, if not more, safespots now. More than likely more since they will have to warp to a new one every minute.

how you like that for lag-inducing database calls?

James Razor
Amarr
Fallen Angel's
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.04.13 22:59:00 - [517]
 

Are u out of your mind @CCP?

Get working on real problems LIKE THE ****ING LAG!!

Did u EVER ****ING GET THAT WE PLAY A SPACE MMO and that SPACE is kinda INFINIT. Meaning that it has NO boundaries?

Just would like to see what u do, if the first Titan is destryoed because of this ****.

Miss President
Caldari
SOLARIS ASTERIUS
Posted - 2010.04.13 22:59:00 - [518]
 

Folks that made this blog must be in disconnect with reality and do not play this game aka NOOBS.


First of all, why did I and other players train Astonometrics Lvl 5.

What do we use deep space probe range of 256 AU range now?
Do you offer skill point reimbursement with this change?

If you must cut distance, cut it to 128 AU range, so deep space probes are useful.

I do agree that some outrageous 400 AU 300 AU spots are not practically scannable but cutting it down to 10 AU is just lame.






Roastedpot
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.04.13 23:03:00 - [519]
 

hmm, ill throw my hat into the disapprove group too

Tornim
Minmatar
Hades Renegades
Black Legion.
Posted - 2010.04.13 23:08:00 - [520]
 

Despite 18 pages I believe it can not be said enough:

Bad implementation of a bad fix that to most players is a non-issue.

Helpful suggestions:
1.10AU off the furthest object is too short. You should be able to get beyond d-scanner off the last planet/gate the same as all other objects in a system.
2.Increase DSSP effectiveness.
3.Deleting stuff/ships is WAY too heavy handed. Especially when in most cases your mechanics put them there in the first place.

Lavender Princess
Posted - 2010.04.13 23:11:00 - [521]
 

Thanks CCP!

Thank you SO MUCH for ignoring the problems you've created and do not fix which causes us to use these deep safes to begin with!

Thank you SO MUCH for ignoring your user community that uses these safes.

Thank you SO MUCH for all the lag and grid load problems to the point where we can no longer enter a system with a large fleet in lag else the entire entering fleet be destroyed without ever activating a module, loading grid OR any means of compensation for your complete inability to handle heavy loads!
"I'm sorry, but our server logs don't point out how badly we've handled our server load capacity and we're not going to refund your loss as a result."

Thank you SO MUCH for being so blatantly aweful in understanding basic customer service that you would destroy any ships including supercaps who don't read your worthless blogs and will lose billions in isk to your petty, selfish desires.

Thank you SO MUCH for devoting another big game expansion to garbage we don't need instead of fixing all the problems that exist in game.

Thank you SO MUCH for your continued arrogance and cruelty.

I sincerely hope that anyone who loses a SC to your wreckless selfishness will sue you in open court.

Hellvin
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.04.13 23:11:00 - [522]
 

Shrink the sandbox and wipe out tons of isk? Cool, CCP. Don't forget to delete boot.ini while you're at it!

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.04.13 23:14:00 - [523]
 

Originally by: Vincent Gaines
my not-so-technical reason why that's a ****ty reason: people will re-make the same, if not more, safespots now. More than likely more since they will have to warp to a new one every minute.

*shrug* As I said, I vouch for nothing in that...

However, I know that sometimes there are things in legacy code that it is very VERY hard to fix! It may be that this is an intermediate step they have to take, or it may be that they actually know what they're doing!

CCP's system architecture decisions are usually pretty good (and this is one). Their implementation sometimes let a bit too many bugs in, and they don't do enough to weed them out, but that is another matter.

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.04.13 23:20:00 - [524]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
my not-so-technical reason why that's a ****ty reason: people will re-make the same, if not more, safespots now. More than likely more since they will have to warp to a new one every minute.

*shrug* As I said, I vouch for nothing in that...

However, I know that sometimes there are things in legacy code that it is very VERY hard to fix! It may be that this is an intermediate step they have to take, or it may be that they actually know what they're doing!

CCP's system architecture decisions are usually pretty good (and this is one). Their implementation sometimes let a bit too many bugs in, and they don't do enough to weed them out, but that is another matter.


heh, I have your corp name tattooed on me.

I don't know, it seems like pointless rationale, and is completely unclear. There's no justification given- it's just "we're going to do this so make sure you bend over"

Gael Itrus
Posted - 2010.04.13 23:23:00 - [525]
 

Edited by: Gael Itrus on 13/04/2010 23:25:35
Forget bookmarks, here is the real effect of what you're planning:

You are creating artificial walls in space.

Good luck creating a "science fiction simulator" when everyone knows your game takes place in a bathtub. Do you guys have any idea how fundamentally stupid this idea is?

constructive edit: perhaps instead of taking the idea that space is a big place out of your game, you could make deep space a mysterious and interesting place, and give your players the means to explore it.


Derkan
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:04:00 - [526]
 

I demand u remove warp to zero from newbs so they too can feel the pain us vets had to go through the first few years of eve YARRRR!!

But seriously. The whole blog doesn't seem very well thought out. Start thinking outside the box (or circle in this case)

  • Fix the ability to get a fleet into a blobbed system before removing the only way to counter it.

  • Destroying ships that are currently logged off in deep SS is just LOLLaughing unless it's another secret way to reduce ingame titans.

  • There are far more concerning bug/lag issues that are affecting our game currently

  • and last but not least. If it ain't broken, don't fix it Cool


Pervigilo Alea
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:13:00 - [527]
 

Originally by: Gael Itrus
Edited by: Gael Itrus on 13/04/2010 23:25:35
...You are creating artificial walls in space.

...Good luck creating a "science fiction simulator" when everyone knows your game takes place in a bathtub. Do you guys have any idea how fundamentally stupid this idea is?

constructive edit: perhaps instead of taking the idea that space is a big place out of your game, you could make deep space a mysterious and interesting place, and give your players the means to explore it.




This Razz

Neuuton
Blackwater USA Inc.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:13:00 - [528]
 

In these days of Gridload failures, or as CCP cutely writes them off as space anomalies, using deep safes is the only viable way to enter contested systems.

I disapprove of this "fix" until gridloading mechanics have been fixed.

Having been on both ends of the gridload failure, and seeing fleets wiped off the map without having the opportunity to fire a shot, I prefer to see CCP invest the time into fixing current bugs.


supertrollguy2
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:13:00 - [529]
 

18 pages in and there are people who still think that they won't be able to warp further than 10AU from inner system celestials...

AdmiralJohn
Gallente
Origin of Sanshaa
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:17:00 - [530]
 

Originally by: supertrollguy2
18 pages in and there are people who still think that they won't be able to warp further than 10AU from inner system celestials...
Bad troll. Or just dumb.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:27:00 - [531]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
It seems fairly obvious that this change is a lag band-aid. Here's why:

* Deep safes permit blobs to get into systems that are already blobbed, increasing the blobbage.

* The change makes bridging into a blobbed system suicidal.

* Therefore, players will adjust their tactics, you won't see 500+ player fleets bridging into blobbed systems, and the lag is tamed at least temporarily.

The strategic consequences, at first glance, are that if you're willing to tie up 500+ players 24/7, you can make a system close to invulnerable. However, though the castle is invulnerable, the Huns can pillage the countryside with impunity -- and if you leave the castle to chase them, they can now risk cynoing in a blob, which means they're on the inside of the castle looking out, and you're on the outside looking in.

As I said, this is just a band-aid. The blunt reality is that "Fleets expand to fit the lag available". Lag is not going to go away until there are game-design and game-play changes that make blobs a bad tactical option.

As for the "podding your ass if you are at a deep safe", that's a classic red-herring proposal. It isn't going to be implemented. Moving stuff is much easier to implement, and won't it be fun if they move not just the player's ships but all the deepsafed cans and empty ships.




Only plant could spill such words.
Because even absolute moron with a brain slick like a pool ball would never ever think about "adjusting tactics", if he need to bring fleet of X ships into Y system.

Miskinea
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:40:00 - [532]
 

If only CCP could fix the real problems (like lags and others)instead of listening the whiners...Why are we accepting a limitation on how we can use space.....if anyone thinks it is a good change then they have no idea on what it will do to PVP....they will be no more escape once you are engaged or ganked ...be ready to loose that ship if you cannot win that fight. Oh yeah and scanning now can be done with almost no skills, 10AU why do we have 32 AU probes and deep space probes for now? Also forget about going into a W/H and getting stuck there....not a very good idea either. Well sorry this change will bring one good thing actually, ppl will just stop playing and lag will improve.......ugh But will I be there to see that.......Question

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:45:00 - [533]
 

Edited by: Tonto Auri on 14/04/2010 00:53:16
Originally by: Kerfira
TECHNICAL REASON FOR THIS CHANGE!


Translation: "I put some words in there to not look like a moron".
Sorry, mate, but unless you prove you know what you're speaking about, you're what you're trying to pretend you aren't.

There's no technical reasons to put walls in space.

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: CCP on Sisi
When you log out in space, the grid you log out in stays in the database. When something is dropped in space ('cans, ships, drones, etc.), that grid stays in the database. Those grids exist in the database until what caused them to be stored is gone, even piloted ships that logged out years ago.

As I understand it, ANY object whatsoever (be it cans, unpiloted ships or frozen corpses), will VANISH after 30days of NOT tinkering with it..
Thus ANY grid, that has stuff on it will be removed from those database calls after 30days.
Cant see the problem here?!?!


Wrong conclusion from wrong starter data.
"Exist in database" should never EVER be the case for " lookup when scanning".
If the grid is clear from anything since server load (i.e. ship logged off at (othervise) empty grid), it should not be loaded into node memory until that ship login back to game, and should never ever affect the node perfomance before that.
I won't comment on the rest of your post, as I assume you can make right conclusions from what I said now.

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:49:00 - [534]
 

Originally by: Durzel
As has been said already it would take 170+ days in the fastest ship to travel 1 AU (in other words, it's a non issue).


But prior to May 18, you can make a BM a few hundred km less than the 10AU limit. After May 18, you can warp there and in a few minutes MWD to your invulnerable spot just outside the 10AU ceiling.

You can be probed out, but no one can warp to the result.

EliteSlave
Minmatar
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:57:00 - [535]
 

CCP Lemur - I normally would support this move to "bring the fight" but unless you actually fix the main issue with PVP right now is "grid loading" and with this issue still not fixed I do not nor does the Community of EVE think this as a good idea to bring into the game, maybe if you could 99.9% guarantee that the grid will load with little to no lag then and only then can / should you bring this patch to "Deep Safes" otherwise you are asking for another "08 Carrier Threadnaught" to be unleashed... and from the looks this thread is already heading that way...

col chronic
Posted - 2010.04.14 01:17:00 - [536]
 

so.... CCP must not give a crap about their customers. Not saying that its a bad idea but if you have a capital ship logged off there.... I would quit, and i dont really blame them if they did quit and play another game. Shame on you CCP devs that would decide "I dont give a **** if they are logged out we are gonna delete thier titan." Remember these people that have capitals in deep SS have been paying your bills for a long time... just let that sink in. For the record i have deep safe bookmarks but all of them are in systems i never use anymore anyways... but its still F*(#ed up that the devs would come to such a radical decision keep it up CCP and there wont be a CCP there wont be a DUST, because no one will care as you dont.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2010.04.14 01:20:00 - [537]
 

My .02 Federal Debt Note opinion:


Probing in deep space was fun for a while. If deep safes are to be taken out, and no bookmarks made there after a given point, why not put all of the deadpace complexes, exploration radar/hack/arch and magneto sites way out there instead. This would add some challenge to the game if warping out means de-spawn.

It would also make it more feasible to take chances in low/null sec going after these sites (more targets beyond CONCORD secured space) without risking instagank/blob. If deep safes worked for hiding large ships, it would work for everybody else. Putting good hack/arch sites way out there would make them harder to find too, but it's almost a giveaway already with everything being so compacted in. Seriously, if there was a "field" of empty containers even outside of present day Earth we would have seen it already. This would also raise the bar for piracy/killmailing when missioners and explorers have to be sniffed out with deep space probes first, then combat probes - giving the intended target/victim more chances to react and adding to the excitement. This is better than "spank gank - ha ha go back to WOW noob!". As sure as people have to earn that deep exploration/mining spot, those who hunt them have to equally earn it.


Deep deep space gives a great sense of.... space. Invisible walls close in - arbitrary boundries - seems fake and WOWish. Compacting everything in "inner" space makes it feel like a board game.

I would hope that as safe spots move in, deadspace, hack/arch/mine sites will move out, making things harder for both play styles, with much better chances at the rewards for the effort (something this game considers one of its good features).





AdmiralJohn
Gallente
Origin of Sanshaa
Posted - 2010.04.14 01:20:00 - [538]
 

So what page do we need to get to before we get more links to player-made content?

Five mil says at page 25 they'll link us to the Tyrannis dev blog announcement and say "To clarify, this is the new expansion."

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2010.04.14 01:21:00 - [539]
 

I'm totally cool with nerfing the stupid-deep safe spots; saw that one coming.

But 10AU? Really? That's too short.

First, missions routinely take you to about 20AU from a planet; if that planet is the "furthest out" celestial, those missions will all be broken, at least the 50% of the time that the mission spawns in an "out" direction. 20AU is thus a logical minimum.

Second, some of us have put a ton of effort into scanning skills specifically for finding hard-to-find distant objects. You're makeing a rule that says everything has to be in d-scan range of something, ferchrissake. Isn't that excessive?

The deep space probes have a 256AU range. I think that would make a good "shell" distance if there must be one. If there are database issues, I could settle for 64AU.

But I think it's ESSENTIAL that players be allowed to retain some sort of safes in places the d-scanner cannot reach. It's one thing to eliminate ancient advantages, it's another to dumb things down so that hard-won probing skills don't get you anywhere than a fresh alt with a d-scanner can get.

Zetenga
Posted - 2010.04.14 01:42:00 - [540]
 

Please, Please, Please, Oh please fix the sound issue that we have had for over a year! I have looked and can't find once where the Dev's have even commented once on this problem! Gawd, I wanna hear the battle happening, not the stupid background noise or my hardeners being on. Please in your devlog, please give us an update on weather or not the sound problem is something your going to fix at all and if so, when it will be!

Neutral


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