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Denuo Secus
Posted - 2010.04.12 14:29:00 - [1]
 

This might be a noob question. But I'm a noob when it comes to autocannons (or turrets) and PvP :P

Almost all my PvP experience is based on drones and long range missiles. Range, tracking and most important maneuvering didn't play a huge role for me yet. Ofc I know the theory behind optimal, fallof and tracking. I need some advice regarding flight and fight tactics.

The "facts" I know yet seem a bit conflictive to me:

(1) Autocannons offer a huge fallof. This is nice for staying out of web and scam range. Minmatars agility offers the option to keep that range. Goal when fighting an opponent: keep range and kite him. Only that way the GTFO option is kept.

(2) Autocannons do only max damage within optimal. Minmatars agility offers the option to get quick under the guns and keep a tight orbit. ACs perfect tracking helps to keep max damage that close. "Do or die".

It's surely situational when to choose which tactic. But maybe someone can share some experiences or some general rules or dos and don'ts.

For instance: if fighting at half fallof it the rule, using long range ammo offers almost no advantage. The fallof of short range and long range ammo is equal and the optimal is more or less tiny. The use of Barrage suggests fighting in fallof too.

It's getting more complex if more opponents are involved. With a missile or drone ship just I try to stay away from all or (if my job involves tackling) I try to keep range to one.

But with autocannons? Should I try only to "tangent" my targets and hop from ship to ship and keep some "freedom"? Or pick one ship, burn into very close range and finish it as fast as possible. I cannot imagine this will end well because Minmatar are not known for huge buffers. Some other ship in the enemy fleet is mostly right at his optimal to do perfect damage to me.

And so on...I just don't know how to exploit the speed and agility advantage in some situations. It seems like damage vs. speed/agility to me. It's contrary sometimes - espacially in non 1 vs. 1 situations.

Thanks for any advice!

Wild Fox
Posted - 2010.04.12 15:29:00 - [2]
 

As you've discovered, it's complicated :-)

At their core, ACs are short-range weapons. Generally speaking, you want to get very close and at the same time maintain high traversal to utilize the excellent tracking of ACs. Tight orbit and melt face.

However, there are exceptions. For example, if you are fighting a blaster boat, your DPS is lower. Hopefully you're faster and can control the range, so you get further away and fight in (your) falloff while the blaster boat won't be able to reach you at all. That's what Barrage is for.

Fox

Poses
Posted - 2010.04.12 16:02:00 - [3]
 

i maintain that everyone should fly minmatar for at least a little bit. To properly fly them takes a lot of pilot skill (meta) that, when translated to other races makes them better pilots in turn.

To clarify, since you are never as good as your opponent (in any one area), you end up being forced to make tactical decisions about range control and proper application of damage. These tough on the fly decisions promote the sort of thinking that results in better pilots over all.

Amarr Supremacist
Posted - 2010.04.12 16:10:00 - [4]
 

Ohoho - this is quite a topic to tackle. You've answered some of the things yourself but I'll try to give some insight on how I approach most fights flying AC boats.

Autocannons are great because they offer versatility. You have the option to burn in and do high DPS at close range complimented by good tracking (which is really only slightly higher than Blasters, but quite a bit higher than Lasers) or stay at range dealing a substantial amount of damage at medium range.

Quote:

(2) Autocannons do only max damage within optimal. Minmatars agility offers the option to get quick under the guns and keep a tight orbit. ACs perfect tracking helps to keep max damage that close. "Do or die".

You say Autocannons only do max damage within optimal; this is true, but it is true for all turret weaponry and it alone should not dictate how you fly. You need to make sure you know when you should be in optimal causing havoc and when you should be utilizing the high falloff that you have. The "Do or die" is not something I see quoted very often when talking about fighting with ACs - it seems more like the kind of approach you would take with Blaster ships.

Quote:
For instance: if fighting at half fallof it the rule, using long range ammo offers almost no advantage. The fallof of short range and long range ammo is equal and the optimal is more or less tiny. The use of Barrage suggests fighting in fallof too.


You mention "long range ammo" and Barrage seperately - Barrage is your long range ammo.
Also, you need to realize that every situation is a new plan. Is your opponent eager to get into your range instead of running away? Does his ship have a web strength bonus which may lead to him fitting a faction web? Does he seem to be an experienced PvP'er? Does he have backup incoming? Can you kill him in time if you kite or do you need to risk a close range gank? There are a ton of factors that change what range you should keep and how you should engage your target every time. There is no set guideline of "keep at range 500, apply web + scram, overload blasters, pray".

A massive part of flying as an AC user is situational awareness and instinct. You may get some kills simply mashing "orbit 20k" or "keep at range 500" when flying a Vagabond and blasting away with Barrage M / faction ammo, but in other cases it is also very likely to get you killed.
Situational awareness requires you to assess what you are up against and how best to tackle (pun intended Wink) it. An example:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
(using Visio for EVE animations is far more fun than using it for Computer Science)

You're in a Cynabal engaging an Ishtar off a gate. You know he is armor tanked and he has not pointed you despite you being within 24km multiple times. What does this tell you? He's likely in a scram (and web(s)) fit. Obviously, you can kill him by orbiting him at 20k and simply bringing him down steadily but at the same time you have to take into account the gang he has sitting on the gate ~70k away. If you simply orbit him at 20k you get pushed inside the Rapiers overloaded web range which will obviously spell certain death for you as the Armor Cane will burn into range.

What do you do to make sure you are not toasted by the sniper BS on the gate while staying outside the range of the Rapier? Manual piloting! Keep your transversal up and keep the Ishtar in high DPS falloff while staying out of the range of the Rapier.

If you want to excel at AC usage you need to master manual piloting. If you are not confident doing this already then I suggest flying something like the 2Gyro2TE1DCU 1LSE Rupture as it's an awesome "training" ground for Minmatar and AC usage in general.

TL;DR
You need to get out there and fly some AC ships. I can ramble on and on, but you need to experience yourself how the ships handle and learn to realize what is a trap and what is simply a dumb ratter.

Matsumoto Yoshizu
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.04.12 17:06:00 - [5]
 

going right

in

to

the

danger zone

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2010.04.12 17:14:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/04/2010 17:23:50
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/04/2010 17:14:52
It depends a lot on what you're flying, how it's fitted, what you're facing, how do you think that is fitted, how likely is it that the target is bait, what the ship you're facing is doing and stuff. In short, get experience, know your fits and the typical fits of the ships you're facing.

I generally prefer doing close-range ganking (Gallente style without the bad parts), but there are some ships it's not such a stellar option with, and situations where you really want to maintain range. Armor fits actually have very good buffer and closerange DPS for this; shield fits can also play this card vs some dumb ratter or trash ship.

You still may want to play range games vs a blasterboat in a armor fit, but it is in no way mandatory, you're often going to either outdamage them or outbuffer them, since they have trouble fitting both when we discuss sub-BS ships.

I also love the artycane occasionally; aside excellent performance at range it has the bonus option of people generally not knowing how to deal with one and trying ******ed things like bumping it in a Vagabond or stuff. It's sort of weak to (mwd-scram or MWD-LR) frigates unless you gimp your buffer or your DPS however.


Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.04.12 17:16:00 - [7]
 

Amarr Supremacist just gave you the Autocannons 401 course, and if you can absorb that, you will be doing very well for yourself.

I'll see if I can contribute a bit by answering your questions directly though:

Originally by: Denuo Secus

The "facts" I know yet seem a bit conflictive to me:

(1) ...keep range and kite him. Only that way the GTFO option is kept.

(2) ...ACs perfect tracking helps to keep max damage that close. "Do or die".

It's surely situational when to choose which tactic. But maybe someone can share some experiences or some general rules or dos and don'ts.


As you mentioned, these seem to be in conflict but it all depends on the situation. Agile speedy ships like the one AS flies depend far more on #1 than on #2, and when you get more advanced will be your predominate strategy for fighting.

While you're working your way up to that skill level, here are a few loose tips to keep in the back of your head:

1) Blasters murder you inside 10KM. But blasters can begin trapping you as far as 13KM. 15KM is usually considered the "safe" area to engage them, though you will already be losing a significant amount of damage at this range to falloff (barring bonused ships like the Cyn or Vag).

2) Pulse lasers will almost always do more damage at range than you. Maintaining range will only result in a victory if you are fast enough to outrun a good amount of their tracking. If you're in an armor Rupture or Hurricane, slugging it out close range can usually win. (Killed a Harby with a Rupture like this once.)

If you're in a shield Rupture or Hurricane and you don't have buddies, the pulse ship will eventually drive you off or win. He has the ideal damage type against you, better damage projection, and usually better DPS in general.

3) ACs VS ACs, the best dogfighter usually wins.

If you're in a shield fit, treat armor ACs like Blasters that have less DPS in general but hurt more at range. Against shield buffer fits, you're probably going to do a tango until one of you gets the idea he can outlast the other, or one gets the idea he's boned and tries to escape.

Armor AC fits have problems against the common ranged shield fits because of maneuverability and damage projection, and the shield buffer usually has more DPS than you...but they can be driven off because they generally have a much smaller buffer.

4) Against drone boats, keep your range and keep them pointed so you can kill off their drones before going in for the kill ("going in" does not necessarily mean 3KM). ACs are beautiful anti-drone weapons.


THE GOLDEN RULE: Know thy enemy. Research the popular fits for all the races. There is no single strategy to win. On the other hand, if you don't know what you're fighting there are numerous ways to fail.



I am by no measure a great PVP pilot, but this is basic information for how ACs stack up against other weapons and can be leveraged against them. There are plenty of other people who may want to correct what I have above or offer some better information.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.04.12 17:37:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/04/2010 17:45:22
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist

Autocannons are great because they offer versatility. You have the option to burn in and do high DPS at close range complimented by good tracking (which is really only slightly higher than Blasters, but quite a bit higher than Lasers) or stay at range dealing a substantial amount of damage at medium range.



Good post in general, but you dropped the ball here. Blaster tracking is in fact slightly better than autocannon tracking for top tier small / large blasters vs the respective ACs.

I'd say "in most cases slightly better" would be a better wording.

Amarr Supremacist
Posted - 2010.04.12 20:29:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/04/2010 17:45:22
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist

Autocannons are great because they offer versatility. You have the option to burn in and do high DPS at close range complimented by good tracking (which is really only slightly higher than Blasters, but quite a bit higher than Lasers) or stay at range dealing a substantial amount of damage at medium range.



Good post in general, but you dropped the ball here. Blaster tracking is in fact slightly better than autocannon tracking for top tier small / large blasters vs the respective ACs.

I'd say "in most cases slightly better" would be a better wording.


I just checked for Mediums, the only size of Guns that really matter. Razz

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.04.12 21:13:00 - [10]
 

Autocannons are about engaging from where their weapons are less effective. That means keeping at arms reach against stuff that will hurt you point blank, and getting in nice and close against longer range stuff.

As a rule of thumb - thanks to tracking, short optimal, long falloff, you're best off just assuming your guns do about 1/3rd the 'paper' damage, and have a range of optimal + falloff.

Then proceed to break this rule of thumb in the appropriate situations.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.12 22:13:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 12/04/2010 22:17:17
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist
Originally by: Omara Otawan

Originally by: Amarr Supremacist

Autocannons are great because they offer versatility. You have the option to burn in and do high DPS at close range complimented by good tracking (which is really only slightly higher than Blasters, but quite a bit higher than Lasers) or stay at range dealing a substantial amount of damage at medium range.



Good post in general, but you dropped the ball here. Blaster tracking is in fact slightly better than autocannon tracking for top tier small / large blasters vs the respective ACs.

I'd say "in most cases slightly better" would be a better wording.


I just checked for Mediums, the only size of Guns that really matter. Razz


Large Aks are pretty nice. If you are not this stupid to use them at blaster ranges, there are no real tracking issues. Wink

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.04.12 22:25:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/04/2010 22:26:33
Originally by: The Djego

Large Aks are pretty nice. If you are not this stupid to use them at blaster ranges, there are no real tracking issues. Wink


There are no tracking issues at blaster ranges either, webbed BSs tend to make a very nice target to hit. Though engaging a blaster BS on its turf in a AC boat is generally a bad idea.

I was just mentioning that the blasters indeed track better on large and small top tier turrets (and a very popular BS blaster platform even gets a 37.5% bonus to tracking), so dont count on out-tracking them.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2010.04.12 22:35:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/04/2010 22:35:53
Um, ACs don't have closerange tracking issues period. I mean, yes, maybe if you hit MWD on and orbit at 500m or something.

I used to have zero problems tracking stuff pre-Dominion with Hail and 60% webs. With 425s. That's half the tracking of a neutron blaster, less optimal and the same falloff and I really had no issues with that. If you can't track stuff properly with faction ammo you must be doing something utterly and horribly wrong.


The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.04.12 22:43:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/04/2010 22:26:33
Originally by: The Djego

Large Aks are pretty nice. If you are not this stupid to use them at blaster ranges, there are no real tracking issues. Wink


There are no tracking issues at blaster ranges either, webbed BSs tend to make a very nice target to hit. Though engaging a blaster BS on its turf in a AC boat is generally a bad idea.

I was just mentioning that the blasters indeed track better on large and small top tier turrets (and a very popular BS blaster platform even gets a 37.5% bonus to tracking), so dont count on out-tracking them.


Well the massive amount of solo blaster BS pilots this days might agree with you. However I do not. Cool

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.04.13 00:13:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 13/04/2010 00:18:56
Originally by: The Djego

Well the massive amount of solo blaster BS pilots this days might agree with you. However I do not. Cool


Solo BS being uncommon these days has absolutely nothing to do with tracking, and everything to do with gameplay evolving in a direction that discourages flying solo in a large sluggish ship.

And its not a bad direction either, battleships arent solo boats, if they fly around solo they deserve to be ripped to shreds by a pack of frigates in a hilarious and humiliating way.

(As far as blasters go, try to prove me wrong and name a situation where large blasters have any tracking problems whatsoever while shooting at a battleship at short range. One that isnt 100% due to terrible piloting that is.)

Wardom
Posted - 2010.04.14 02:57:00 - [16]
 

I just wanna give a BIG thank you to everyone here.
I too needed help with autocannons,your knowledge is appreciated.

Cpt Jagermeister
United Systems Navy
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.04.14 07:01:00 - [17]
 

I'm very confused, this is....a ....good.....thread....Thanks?

Denuo Secus
Posted - 2010.04.14 13:37:00 - [18]
 

Yip indeed. Many thanks to all for your great responses. Especially Amarr Supremacist, I really liked your tactics chart Very Happy

Merbusent
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:00:00 - [19]
 

To me autocannon falloff has been about blowing up smaller targets gaining better tracking in the process also autocannons dont work without gyrostabilizers, minmatar cannot support defensive capibilities as there held with duct-tape, so max tracking, speed, sig and damage is what I find best.

Flitterby
Posted - 2010.04.14 17:58:00 - [20]
 

I've enjoyed this thread very much. I'm interested in getting into a Rupture, then Hurricane, then perhaps a Vagabond eventually. Could someone please give me an idea of the minimum required skills before I make a serious jump?

Also, are the utility highs on Rupture and Hurricane normally filled with neuts, nos, or missiles? Varying? Thanks!

Amarr Supremacist
Posted - 2010.04.14 19:02:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Flitterby
I've enjoyed this thread very much. I'm interested in getting into a Rupture, then Hurricane, then perhaps a Vagabond eventually. Could someone please give me an idea of the minimum required skills before I make a serious jump?

Also, are the utility highs on Rupture and Hurricane normally filled with neuts, nos, or missiles? Varying? Thanks!


T2 guns, near perfect support skills. Rupture should have T2 guns and atleast level 4 in all normal support skills (this includes AWU 4). You should stick to the Rupture for a long time before changing to another class - learn to fly it both as the armor variant and the shield variant. The shield variant takes a lot more practice to master.

Neuts are common in the highs. You can find standard fittings on Scrapheap that are better than most of the trash posted here.

Boss Lemming
Gallente
BOUNTY. HUNTER. MINING. EXSPLORATION. CORPORATION.
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.04.14 19:31:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Boss Lemming on 14/04/2010 19:31:57
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist
Originally by: Flitterby
I've enjoyed this thread very much. I'm interested in getting into a Rupture, then Hurricane, then perhaps a Vagabond eventually. Could someone please give me an idea of the minimum required skills before I make a serious jump?

Also, are the utility highs on Rupture and Hurricane normally filled with neuts, nos, or missiles? Varying? Thanks!


T2 guns, near perfect support skills. Rupture should have T2 guns and atleast level 4 in all normal support skills (this includes AWU 4).


Don't forget minnie cruiser V, as opposed to minnie cruiser IV, the double AC dps bonus makes a pretty impressive difference in point blank damage, and a respectable difference at range.

e:Embarassed

Trevor Warps
Posted - 2010.04.14 20:05:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: The Djego
Well the massive amount of solo blaster BS pilots this days might agree with you. However I do not. Cool


Solo PvP in a T1 fit insured Megathron Is-A-Blast !!!!! Omg i love it.

You just to accept the fact that you lost your ship as you undock, and your going to have lots of fun ! And if your lucky might even come back home with a ship in one piece and several killmails !

Some people doesn't grasp this concept tho ... and proceed to smacktalk me into how they trapped me and how big their e-peen is ... yada-yada ... but they fail to realise I am basicaly on a suicide run and I'm the one warping to them ... lol

Yankunytjatjara
Amarr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.04.20 09:34:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 20/04/2010 09:35:20
OMG A helpful thread, this should be stickied, the last one of these is from how long ago? Years probably!

Amarr Supremacist's AC tactics are great. Shows how bad amarr small ships are if with his nick he's that good with ACs btw ;p but let's not derail the thread.

I have a question about those tactics: how do you do it? Do you
a) keep zoomed in and know where your ship is facing and if the double click in space works - which happens once in a while
b) keep zoomed out and know what the rest of the world is doing
c) keep zooming in and out and get the best of both worlds, but also nausea

The question is a bit tongue in cheek but I have been often at odds with this problem in my persisting noobness.

Edit - on a related note, I would like to lobby here for a proposal of mine, ship velocity vectors that imo help exactly this kind of play style.

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2010.04.20 11:14:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Flitterby
I've enjoyed this thread very much. I'm interested in getting into a Rupture, then Hurricane, then perhaps a Vagabond eventually. Could someone please give me an idea of the minimum required skills before I make a serious jump?

Also, are the utility highs on Rupture and Hurricane normally filled with neuts, nos, or missiles? Varying? Thanks!


The most honest answer would be 'varying'.

It all depends on your playstyle though.
For solo/small gangs I definatelly recommend a neut. (+nos if you have 2 util highs)
If you have 3 util highs, fit missiles (baring you have 3 missile hardpoints)
NEVER fit a missile launcher if you have 1 utility high, with the single exception of the AC thrasher (+ rocket launcher) which is acceptable.

I generally tend to only fit missile launchers in my utils when I'm gank+nano+shieldbuffer fitted (hurricane for instance).
The extra bit of DPS might be just what helps you kill the enemy.

Rule of thumb that I like to follow though:

solo/small gang: neut (+nos)
large gang/fleet: missile launchers (if you have 2 or more util highs, otherwise just a neut) ((doesn't apply to phoon, phoon setups is fair game))

Reasoning:
in a small gang or solo you will benefit more from being able to drain your target(s)
in a big fleet, when you get called primary you die. From the start of the fight up untill the point you get called primary I find it MUCH better to have more firepower than the ability to neut someone.


 

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