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debbie harrio
Posted - 2010.04.12 08:26:00 - [91]
 



Hehe, if the whingers fitted a different weapon system to their ships instead of smartbombs they might do what all other gangs do when a cyno is lit and kill the cyno ship leaving only a fraction of the hot drop on the field.

But no, they want their OMFG WE ARE SO 1337 gate camping tactics to be able to operate with impunity and have no counter.

A hot drop to your lame tactics is exactly the same as what you are doing yourselves to the people on the gates traveling through the system, do what everyone else does when a cyno goes up, KILL THE CYNO.

Mark Hadden
Amarr
Endstati0n
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.04.12 08:55:00 - [92]
 

crap thread.

Cyno is the only way to kill a gatecamp with x scouts in all adjacent systems.

Accept that, stop camping or go to high sec.

Polaris Lumine
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.04.12 10:12:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Hazel Starr
Stuff
And the counter to the gate camping you are doing would then be.....what exactly?

Hot dropping is one of those risks you should have to live with, and if you're smart, be prepared for (whatever that contingency plan would be)

Iteken Hotori
Minmatar
The Flowing Penguins
Posted - 2010.04.12 10:31:00 - [94]
 

I like the way the OP has written and structured his pst.

However it's a completely laughable concept once you come to realise that the only way to realistically break up a low-sec gatecamp utilizing Spidertanking BS, Remote Sensor Boosting, Insta-Lock Hictors and Neutral scouts in every direction is to repeatedly drop Carriers, Supercarriers, and Fleets onto them until you get bored of this and leave.

After a few goes at this the Pirates either Figure out a way to kill the carriers, and get the warm fuzzies that come with low-sec cap kills, or go somewhere else.

The main issue i have though is your assertion of "capital ships online" and this being a new phenomenon. It was new and exciting in 2007. If you haven't learned to deal with it by now, you need help.

Cameron Freerunner
Posted - 2010.04.12 14:32:00 - [95]
 

What is the obsession with "counters"? Who says everything has to have a direct "counter"? This is what I was saying earlier about this game becoming more like Mortal Kombat. Some people want everything to come down to two ships, right then, right there. I push button A, so you push button B. That is NOT what game balance means.

Not one of you who is for this proposal has bothered to break down the game mechanics of the current cyno jammer. Why do you think they made it part of the sov structure game mechanics? Doesn't that tell you just how powerful jamming can be? And now you want to take it mobile where it can be wielded like a scalpel. Any half competent FC could render a cap fleet useless with these ships. But you know what? It won't solve YOUR problem. Why? You fly in a small gang. At best you might field two of these new ships because you'll still need to field dps. The hot drop bait will become two or three ships, instead of one, so that at least one is able to pop the cyno. So you're STILL going to get dropped. And for the early posters who said they were solo or in pairs, you won't be able to field one at all. You don't think game balance would allow a ship this powerful (bubble/cyno jam) to mount serious dps, do you? But it will totally alter cap fleet mechanics. If you want to understand game balance, stop thinking about this like its just your ship and the bait ship.

Hurtful Words
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.04.12 16:18:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Cameron Freerunner
Never engage a solo recon unless you're prepared for a hot drop.


Best advice in this thread.

Malakai Draevyn
Caldari
Knights Of Anarchy
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.04.12 16:38:00 - [97]
 

Personally, am all for this 'cyno displacer' which drops people 25km away (go on - let's make it 30km - I dare you) from the original point of cyno.

As one of the afore-mentioned covops cyno stealthbomber hotdroppers, it would land everything in the fleet at exactly the correct optimal range to rain down a torrent of torps and bombs onto your little fleet.

Be careful what you wish for... You might just get it, and it might not exactly swing in your favour.



Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.04.12 17:40:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Malakai Draevyn
...As one of the afore-mentioned covops cyno stealthbomber hotdroppers, it would land everything in the fleet at exactly the correct optimal range to rain down a torrent of torps and bombs onto your little fleet.

Be careful what you wish for... You might just get it, and it might not exactly swing in your favour.

Good thing almost all proponents in the thread want it as a low-sec option and could care less about the silly null-sec bomber gangs .. but you are welcome to use your flimsy ship near sentries, I am sure Concord is just as hungry for mails as we are Very Happy

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.04.12 19:00:00 - [99]
 

I'd like to remind people that the proposed "counters" are not removing the tactic of hot dropping from game.

We are not trying to prevent hot drops as viable tactic. It can still be done even against the ships using proposed counters, only with a little bit more effort and a little bit more team work. In worst case scenario, it would require 2 ships to go in for the hot drop - one as bait, other as cyno generator to drop cyno outside of range of attackers who swarm the bait. Both sides use team work. Both sides have a chance to achieve their objectives.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.04.12 19:09:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Hurtful Words
Originally by: Cameron Freerunner
Never engage a solo recon unless you're prepared for a hot drop.


Best advice in this thread.
Oh yea, so unless I'm in one of the mega alliances with 100 dreads and several titans on standby, I shouldn't bother with PvP at all, right? After all, that lonely recon just MAY have 99 dreads on standby and I need to make sure I got more before I should try PvP

What excellent advice

And while we are on the subject of good advice, how can someone with your reasoning against this counter ignore the fact that EVE has a system wide cyno jammer POS module, which is MUCH more powerful and clearly overpowered compared to the very limited usability of proposed mobile cyno jammer?

If you firmly believe that cynos should not be jammed, you should be screaming your head off at the "injustice" of system cyno jammers. But if you purposefully ignore it, you are either just not smart enough to see the obvious inconsistency in game design or you just don't give a damn about game design, and just say whatever you feel like without relying on logic.

Malakai Draevyn
Caldari
Knights Of Anarchy
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.04.12 19:37:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Malakai Draevyn
...As one of the afore-mentioned covops cyno stealthbomber hotdroppers, it would land everything in the fleet at exactly the correct optimal range to rain down a torrent of torps and bombs onto your little fleet.

Be careful what you wish for... You might just get it, and it might not exactly swing in your favour.

Good thing almost all proponents in the thread want it as a low-sec option and could care less about the silly null-sec bomber gangs .. but you are welcome to use your flimsy ship near sentries, I am sure Concord is just as hungry for mails as we are Very Happy


Sentries ? Been there, done that - it's quite amusing really..... when you're in a 'silly' bomber gang that's taking out tanked battleships quicker than the damn sentries can take out the paper-thin bombers, then vanishing into the mist, they really don't bother you all that much.

Food for thought, isn't it? ;)

Capt Lothar
Monolithic.
Posted - 2010.04.12 20:40:00 - [102]
 

Remember that day, April 5th of this year to be exact, when your terribad alliance attempted to finish off an ADHD POS which had come out of RF with 6 dreadnaughts.

We cynoed in a mothership and some carriers...
you logoffski'd one dread which e-warped away even though we had it pointed...
then you self destructed 3 of your dreadnaughts...
we killed 2...

So you see, you are wrong when you say there is no counter. You self destructed 3 dreads, logoffski'd one, then went on and on about how this is just a game and you didn't want those capitals anyway.

Roughnecks - 1
ADHD - 0

Hazel Starr
Krypteia Brotherhood
Posted - 2010.04.12 21:25:00 - [103]
 

Sigh...Capt Lothar, if you could be bothered to read my original post, you would
notice that it took place three days before the incident you described.

But thank you for providing an example to back up my argument that there
is a problem in low-sec play with the ability of large alliances
to move major reserves onto a battlefield across many systems faster than
an in-system fleet could warp from one location to another within the
same system.



Cameron Freerunner
Posted - 2010.04.13 19:17:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Cameron Freerunner
Never engage a solo recon unless you're prepared for a hot drop.

Oh yea, so unless I'm in one of the mega alliances with 100 dreads and several titans on standby, I shouldn't bother with PvP at all, right? After all, that lonely recon just MAY have 99 dreads on standby and I need to make sure I got more before I should try PvP

What excellent advice

And while we are on the subject of good advice, how can someone with your reasoning against this counter ignore the fact that EVE has a system wide cyno jammer POS module, which is MUCH more powerful and clearly overpowered compared to the very limited usability of proposed mobile cyno jammer?

If you firmly believe that cynos should not be jammed, you should be screaming your head off at the "injustice" of system cyno jammers.

This is where your conversation takes a turn for the irrational and inaccurate.

I never said jamming was bad. I said a single, push button jamming module solution was bad. If you scroll up three inches, you'll see I ask you to examine system-wide jamming game mechanics; their obvious power; and how they figure into the sov structure. If you want to know why no one is *****ing about system jammers, its because the necessary sov level to achieve it means that the resident sov holders have held a system for an extended period of time. It means they invested a lot of time and resources and combat to get it setup in the first place. They'll also still have to keep working hard to keep the sov necessary to keep it running. It's also only active in 0.0 and its immobile. Have you EVER even READ anything about 0.0, sov, and fleets?

As for my advice, he was responding (I think) to a sort of inside joke. The advice is sound however. It won't be 99 cap ships, it will be a fleet of stealth bombers. If you're foolish enough to enage without intel and forethought, well... you're foolish.

Quote:
But if you purposefully ignore it, you are either just not smart enough to see the obvious inconsistency in game design or you just don't give a damn about game design, and just say whatever you feel like without relying on logic.

This thread was going so well; then you had to get personal. What do you know about game design? Nothing. Or you would never have proposed that a module be added to solve your 30km problem. 30 friggin' kilometers. All of nullsec has been dealing with drops for years, but here you are *****ing. Good luck, you're going to need it.

AmIDeadyet
Posted - 2010.04.13 22:12:00 - [105]
 

Zomg people with more money have cooler toys? Go figure! If you are engaging a corp capable of dropping caps, you do so at your own peril, don't whine when they respond. Anyone remember about that cool military tactic known as an "ambush"? Military experts say that those not prepared for it usually die to it. Adapt and overcome. Less QQ please. Do you think any country who picks a fight with a bigger country is going to whine about fairness when they start getting bombed by aircraft, have paratroopers and tanks used against them? And just fyi, in FW we deal with it on a daily basis, and guess what? Makes for more fun. We just had a 3 sided fight where 2 of the 3 hot dropped capitals. Guess what? capitals died. Don't take away my capital kills please. Cynos are fine as is. As for the mass idea, do you seriously want to sit down and have to calculate the combined mass of a large fleet to figure out how many cynos you need?

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.04.13 22:40:00 - [106]
 

some people like chess, some people like checkers

Makar Kravchenko
Posted - 2010.04.14 00:33:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Makar Kravchenko on 14/04/2010 00:45:06
Edited by: Makar Kravchenko on 14/04/2010 00:44:25
I have dreams of Capital Class Ships with Capital Class Mobile Cyno Jamming Modules.

Powered by Strontiumô

10min Cycles, Dirupts all cyno operations in current system. Not including Covert. Immobilizing ship using Cyno Jammer. Ship Can not be affected by projected modules like Remote Repair or Remote Sensor Boosting while in cyno jamming mode. No ships can cyno OUT of the system either.

Possible option for new Mothership class? :D

Possibly a Tech 2 variant of the Super-Carrier class?


Yeah the Super-Cap Hulls might be a little too much for this, maybe T2 Carriers with this ability. Something that's got a chance of being destroyed before the enemy cap fleet can destroy your incoming fleet.


I know this does not solve the bane of random hot-drops. My suggestion there is to fly a ship with high dps, and kill the cyno ship before his friends can jump and repair him - then warp away.

Cameron Freerunner
Posted - 2010.04.14 02:17:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
some people like chess, some people like checkers

Let me know when you're ready for chess. Until then, king me.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.04.14 02:53:00 - [109]
 

I'm afraid you are the one playing checkers.

I want more pieces, that do different things, to make some fancier strategies with.

The important information has been presented, the rest is just repeating the same thing over and over again on both sides.

debbie harrio
Posted - 2010.04.14 07:23:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm afraid you are the one playing checkers.

I want more pieces, that do different things, to make some fancier strategies with.

The important information has been presented, the rest is just repeating the same thing over and over again on both sides.


I see that went straight over your head, you are the one looking to carry on your lame tactics with impunity, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the present mechanics.

Kill the Cyno ship, stops hot drop, what is so hard about that, if you can't kill cyno ship you are just failsauce.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2010.04.14 14:18:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: debbie harrio

Kill the Cyno ship, stops hot drop, what is so hard about that, if you can't kill cyno ship you are just failsauce.


It's not the question of killing the cyno ship, it's about what comes through the cyno and kills you anyway.

Jarne
Caldari
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2010.04.14 15:03:00 - [112]
 

Just a note:

A cyno "displacer" would just be abused by gankers to gank caps on logistic runs in the usual lowsec staging points.

Cloak at station, wait for cyno, decloak and activate cyno displacer, hope for incoming cap to come in out of docking range, gank.

Apart from that, the following is a view of the current state:

How it is now with warping - You are warping from your current position to another point in system. You cannot warp if you are scrambled or bubbled. Scrambling cannot affect where you come out of warp. Bubbles at the destination may affect where you come out of warp, if they are inline with your starting position and not farther away from your destination than 100km.

How it is now with jumping - You are jumping from your current position to a cyno in another system. You cannot jump if you are scrambled or bubbled. Neither scrambling nor bubbling can affect where you "come out of the jump".

You can clearly see there are strong similarities between jumping and warping, but there is a subtle difference: The destination of the jump is only determined by the position of the cyno, where the destination of a warp can be affected by bubbles (in 0.0 only of course).

Wether you see this as an argument pro mobile cyno jammer or similar is up to you.

debbie harrio
Posted - 2010.04.14 15:39:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Baneken
]

It's not the question of killing the cyno ship, it's about what comes through the cyno and kills you anyway.


A competent gang can kill a bait cyno drake in seconds but then again you won't do it in smartbombing BS's.

My corp has done this many times, sometimes a carrier or 2 lands, some times a few ships but as soon as that cyno is dead, no more land, if you're up to it kill them as well.

Smartbombing battleship gate griefers in low sec are prime targets for hotdrop gangs, so maybe that is what the problem here is, they have been noted and get a lot of attention off bigger corps/alliances with caps/titans, if this is the case I would recommend that they change their tactics and fit some offensive hi slot modules.


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.04.14 16:51:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: debbie harrio
Smartbombing battleship gate griefers in low sec are prime targets for hotdrop gangs, so maybe that is what the problem here is, they have been noted and get a lot of attention off bigger corps/alliances with caps/titans, if this is the case I would recommend that they change their tactics and fit some offensive hi slot modules.

And what of the remaining 90% of the people being victimised by bored capital pilots and corps/alliances who has failed in null-sec?

Drops used against pirate camps represents a small minority of the total.
Drops are not just carriers/dreads but an increasing number of bridges made from 100% safe (no bubbling) Titans from inside low-sec POS'es.

That is what is breaking low-sec life. The pirates have been here since before Capitals were even introduced and are killed or driven off by regular hulls on a daily basis.

Cameron Freerunner
Posted - 2010.04.14 17:07:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm afraid you are the one playing checkers.
Weak riposte
Originally by: Ephemeron
I want more pieces, that do different things, to make some fancier strategies with.
Yet you can't handle the complexities of a hot drop.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
And what of the remaining 90% of the people being victimised by bored capital pilots and corps/alliances who has failed in null-sec?
So far few people have had anything at all to say about it. This appears to be the only current thread.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:07:00 - [116]
 

funny, ive been a practising pirate in multiple regions of lowsec for over a year and have only been hotdropped once,and that was when we brought our dreads to finish off an rfed pos. Reluctance to engage in lowsec has nothing to do with hotdrops and everything to do with fear of a blob and the healthy sense of paranoia you need to cultivate to live in lowsec in the first place.

debbie harrio
Posted - 2010.04.14 18:46:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

And what of the remaining 90% of the people being victimised by bored capital pilots and corps/alliances who has failed in null-sec?

Drops used against pirate camps represents a small minority of the total.
Drops are not just carriers/dreads but an increasing number of bridges made from 100% safe (no bubbling) Titans from inside low-sec POS'es.

That is what is breaking low-sec life. The pirates have been here since before Capitals were even introduced and are killed or driven off by regular hulls on a daily basis.


The only time I have seen these type of threads is from griefer gate camps who want to carry on with their 1337 tactics with impunity.

The reason Low sec is empty is because of these idiots, not because of hotdrops.

And yes I do know about titan bridges.

Victimised LOLZ....grow up.

and tell me how is a titan 100% safe at a POS in low sec?

Destroy the pos and it's pilot is unable to log on.



Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.04.15 08:01:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: debbie harrio
and tell me how is a titan 100% safe at a POS in low sec?

Destroy the pos and it's pilot is unable to log on.

Bubbles do not exist remember? Destroying a stronted POS takes two days so pilot can log on at any time and jump out if he wants. Has no effect on a pilots ability to log on .. don't know where you got that notion.
Even if you kill a POS and it is logged off you have station 2+ HIC (one without backup gets DD'ed) permanently at the location in case it logs on .. have fun with that.

Yes, victimised. What other word fits when sub-BC gangs are dropped by massive BS blobs and/or X amount of carriers?
It is being done against frigate gangs for craps sake, that is how badly the null-sec fail-trains affect low-sec life.

Capitals have no place in low-sec so it should be prohibitively expensive to use capitals in low-sec.
Low-sec is Empire space .. you don't see American carriers launching air-strikes against random criminals on British soil either, which is what it amounts to.
If people fail in null-sec there are loads of 0.0 NPC areas they can flee to while planning their rebuilding.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2010.04.15 13:22:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Yes, victimised. What other word fits when sub-BC gangs are dropped by massive BS blobs and/or X amount of carriers?
It is being done against frigate gangs for craps sake, that is how badly the null-sec fail-trains affect low-sec life.


proof please. Show me one low sec engagement involving a primarily 0.0 based alliance where caps were deployed simply because they could be and not because they were needed. The only outfit ive ever known to do it is Quam Singularity and guess what, THEY LIVE IN LOWSEC.

Far as i can see you're simply spouting hyberbole without any proof to back it up

the plague
Anthraxus Defense Laboratories
Posted - 2010.04.15 20:07:00 - [120]
 

Although I'm not sure I agree with him, the OP actually raises a fairly interesting question.

I remember how in Homeworld some ships were able to fit some type of hyperspace inhibitor module that essentially served the same function as what several members have asked for in this thread. It didn't actually prohibit all incoming hyperspace jumps, instead it simply bounced them a short distance away, essentially acting as protection against "hot-drops." Interestingly enough, since this module was quite powerful, it could only be fitted to the larger capital ships, and not just any old destroyer or whatever.

In EVE, a similar module that could be fit to a supercap might not be an entirely bad idea. Of course, this wouldn't really serve the needs of the OP since he was originally asking for a module that a small gang could use to effectively block out an incoming cap fleet. But really, should a small roving gang of cruisers or whatever be able to cynojam an incoming cap fleet? I think not.


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