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adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2010.03.26 18:41:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: adriaans on 27/03/2010 14:28:11
Field Command ships upgrade

Tldr: **Field** command ships severely lack any staying power, and or dps, and or fitting, in the current eve environment. Since their introduction much has changed making field commands very obsolete for pretty much everything the field commands were designed for.

For people who still don't get it:
THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR FLEET COMMAND SHIPS, ONLY FOR FIELD COMMAND SHIPS (The ones that do not give bonuses). (That said, i believe some small tweaks to them could be welcome, particularly Eos and if you want me to make a thread about those too, I'd be happy too, same for tier 1 bc's).

Having had the skill command ships at lvl 5 for well over 2 years now, and when people ask about command ships everyone always tells them to just fly a BC or t3 instead (or a BS if mobility does not matter), I thought it was time these got it's long deserved boost and make them more viable. I have been careful to not over boost them.
Field commands have become more and more obsolete as the years have gone by, thus i am proposing this upgrade to them.

General boost to all 4 of them (Absolution, Nighthawk, Astarte, Sleipnir):
-Make them all use base HP's from the tier 2 BC class instead of tier 1, this will help them have a little more staying power on the field, but still not enable massive buffers.
-A small agility boost. They handle almost like a plated battleship.
-30-40% sensor strength boost. This will place them not as high as recons and certainly less than an eccm'd battleship, and is something they really need as they are far too easily disabled.

Ship boosts (all of them +1 slot). (all fitting increments are BASE values, thus skills will boost them further).

Absolution: +1 med slot, + 15 cpu. It is still unable to make much use of the last high slot bar a small neut/nos, but it can now fit an eccm making a harbinger not outclass it in every regard bar pure ehp (harb still does more dps). This will enable it to work better solo, or in gang situations (In a fleet you'd use the damnation after all).
For being so reliant on capacitor it has a very small cargo bay, a small boost there could be helpful.
I was going to ask for a +25 m3 drone bay and bandwidth, but that might be too much.

Alternative boost: +1 low slot, + 26 cpu. If possible additional powergrid to make last high slot able to fit something be preferred too, like gang link needs: +120 PG.

Conclusion: This will make the abso much more viable as either expensive solo or actually more useful than a harbinger in gangs due to sensor strength and a bit more staying power (harb still does more dps though).

Nighthawk: With the tiny HP boost proposed above this ship will still have ehp comparable with a drake pvp fit. As with the absolution this ship needs another slot, and this ship REALLY needs a mid slot in regards to pvp, +1 med slot. A second thing it lacks which has been said countless times over the years is power grid, and it lacks a lot of it, assuming 5th low as a reactor control +80 PG, assuming power diagnostic, +150 PG, that is up to ccp, personally I'd recommend the +150 PG.

(With the HP boost and +1 med slot, some people may be worried about super passive tanks, I'd like to point out that a rattlesnake would still be better and that such a fit can't do anything but lol dps or lvl 5 mission/ded 10 plex tanking. Should ccp not like it, simply increase it's shield recharge base value somewhat to make it have the same passive tank as before it's boost).

Conclusion: You will have enough fitting for an active tank or a buffer tank (buffer tank does not fit cap booster as I believe giving it fitting for that would be too much). It will now no longer be a worse and more expensive drake but actually be viable, mostly due to sensor strength and another med slot like the abso. It will still be an expensive drake, just like the abso will still be an expensive harbinger, but it is no longer outclassed it every way.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2010.03.26 18:41:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: adriaans on 27/03/2010 14:21:59
Astarte: This ship is a bit difficult, for being a pure gank ship it has too little dps over the other's and to little fitting for a proper neutron fit. To make it more ganky to keep it in it's role: +1 high slot, + 1 gun hard point, + 295 PG. This will enable it to fit 8x Netron blasters II and dual rep (assuming 2x dmg mods dual rep config with neutrons this will be the stats: 480 tank, 5x medium ecm drones will make that more effective, 856 gun dps).
A small cargo bay increase for cap boosters just like the abso would be helpful too.

Edit: Alternative boost: +1 low slot, + 165 PG. It would give it more survivability, but it would be less ganky, a sleipnir would do the same dps before drones, some people prefer this over the other proposal though, but in the end this is up to ccp.

Conclusion: A shield buffered brutix no longer is more or less better than this ship, it now has it's role as i believe the astarte was designed to have, a proper gank boat, but now it actually has a semblance of a tank and it has finally a dps advantage over the other ships in it's class.

Sleipnir: Usually considered the best of the field commands (does not say much though), giving it another slot like the other's is a given and a tiny cpu increase for those who like XL booster configs. +1 med slot, + 45 cpu. This will enable it to keep it's niche as a heavy vaga/cyclone (depending on what you prefer, buffer or XL booster configs will now be a little better).

Conclusion: The sleip will be like it has always been but now a little better in it's niche role(s). The Xl booster fit will still crumble under any form of neuting or fight's lasting more than a minute and the buffer fit is still slower than hac's or shield bc's.




Overall conclusion: The field commands will now be more than just expensive battlecruiser and have a place in solo and small/mid sized gangs like they should (fleet commands (like damnation) are for big gangs/fleets if you still haven't gotten it). They're severe lack of slots and fittings will no longer be such a huge issue as it has always been. They will not obsolete the battlecruiser class and in a straight 1 vs 1 a battleship rightly will still beat them just fine. They will certainly not be overpowered as some people keep fearing.

(I believe the small HP boost and agility boost should also be applied to their base ships (prophecy, ferox, brutix, cyclone), but that their ''upgrading'' to be comparable to tier 2 Bc's should be different than the changes to these field command ships).


Agree with the above idea? Hate it? Change/tweak it somewhat? Post about it! And remember to check the ''I support'' field if you do! (And remember to keep proposals balanced!).



Di Mulle
Posted - 2010.03.26 18:50:00 - [3]
 

I am not prepared to discuss what exactly must be done, but something must...

And yeah, save Eos from being useless.

Supported.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.03.26 18:59:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 26/03/2010 19:16:38
They are generally not used in PVP simply because the risk outweighs the benefit. The price is higher than a battleship, but a battleship brings more to a fight.

I mean, if they are meant for mission running/ratting, give them a more carebear name and get rid of leadership requirements.

Captain Bevier
Gallente
Danneskjold Heavy Industries
Posted - 2010.03.26 19:02:00 - [5]
 

I support this idea, especially the sleipnir, always wanted an extra med on one of those :P (dont really know about the other field commands apart from mission nighthawk)

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club

Posted - 2010.03.26 20:57:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/03/2010 20:57:13
I like this.

Well, I think the Astarte is still problematic (because of rep bonus, and the fact midslots/lowslots are generally more valuable) but it's still a huge improvement.

Now, if only the Sleipnir looked like a T2 Hurricane Twisted Evil

Taya Greathame
Snuff Box
Posted - 2010.03.26 22:02:00 - [7]
 

seeing as this was my original proposal, i support this greatly. Very Happy

Taya out!Cool

Anglique
Legion Of Boom
Fear Th3 Vampires
Posted - 2010.03.26 22:26:00 - [8]
 

I'm unqualified to decide on how appropriate those specific suggestions are, but i'm definitely all for game balancing, so 1up from me.

Quantum Doom
Minmatar
Fatal Union of Cruel Killers
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.03.26 22:42:00 - [9]
 

oh yeah definitely supported .. the amount of time spent fiddling with the bastards trying to get em to fit + not suck could have been so better utilized killing someone with one honest

Alchemist Zemont
Gallente
Hysteria Nexus

Posted - 2010.03.27 01:52:00 - [10]
 

Field Commands and Eos need MAJOR loving, I always wanted to see the absolution have the range bonus of a zealot I know this would make it OP but would be fun XD

Eitherway commands need a buff

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2010.03.27 07:30:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 27/03/2010 07:29:42
Something is to be done, but some proposals are just weird.

Why the hell would you want to give Astarte yet another gun when she still dies with its current 7? It won't make this ship that much better as no one sane complains on the DPS of it, but rather on the lack of mobility/features.
Addition of another tanking slot is already way better since 7 guns with 2 damage mods is superior to 8 with just one, and I'm yet to see any setup with 2 MFS which isn't a complete kamikaze-mobile.

+1 med for Abso is dandy, but kinda corrupts the whole racial concept, as Amarr are somewhat supposed to lack mids. I'd vote for another tanking slot, too.

Changes for Sleip and NH look reasonable.

More PG and +1 med for NH? Hell, yeah Twisted Evil

Chislaki Valda'Q
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2010.03.27 10:06:00 - [12]
 

I got BC5 for ages but lack of Performance coupled with cost is a Reason i never trained into any CS. Crying or Very sad

signed!

Skylar Gray
Posted - 2010.03.27 13:51:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Skylar Gray on 27/03/2010 21:53:08
Astarte: +1 Low slot instead of high.

Agreed with the rest. Good post.

Also, as far as the Eos, all they need to change to make it not completely useless (like, literally less than Black=Ops useless) is give it back 5 heavys. The massive nerf was from 7 guns + 5 heavys to 3 heavys and 5 guns. Just give back the drones, keep off the guns (**** take another for 4). Awesome tanking ishtar?

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2010.03.27 14:41:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: adriaans on 27/03/2010 14:41:40
Thanks for the support so far guys! I have updated the thread with the other suggestions noted as ''alternative boost'' on the absolution and the astarte.


The reason for it fon revedhort is because i believe the astarte was made to be a pure gank boat and i didn't want to make it to similar to the others and try and keep it unique for what it was supposed to do, the racial concept. Perhaps it would do better with another low slot than a high, it's hard to say as that would depend a lot on circumstances, either would be a major upgrade to it though :) It's a major pain trying to balance this ship though...^^

As for the abso the 4th med i took as an inspiration from the harbinger, im a bit afraid another low would make way for too big tanks for a BC class ship, but running some more calculations and theoretical fittings of said change i can see it work :)


Skylar: Remember to check the 'i agree with proposal box'!
That said i believe the Eos as a fleet command ship should not have 5 heavy drones, it could use 4 heavies though, along with other changes to make it a more used fleet command. It's main problem is that it's bonuses are made for running along with recon ships, which it is incapable of doing in it's current state.

Tornicks
Caldari
The Green Cross
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2010.03.27 15:10:00 - [15]
 

Agree to the OP, especially in the HP boost part.

Rastino
Minmatar
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.03.27 17:34:00 - [16]
 

Decently supported….

By the way this is my first supporting anything. Normally I just tell people why the subject is bad but this is one of the few really good proposals on this forum…. More like this please.

Jacob Stov
Posted - 2010.03.27 23:21:00 - [17]
 

Full support. Enough fitting for tank + gank + one ganglink.

Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.03.28 06:04:00 - [18]
 

boost!

Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
Posted - 2010.03.28 07:54:00 - [19]
 

once they will be able to outtank normal BS they will be worthy for use in bigger battles.... at least for FCs. still can be used in local skirmishes as the wild card, but the pricetag is horrible. another idea is to make them T1 so u can insure them ..... here we go .... u will see them much more on the field.

Nico Terces
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.28 09:46:00 - [20]
 

Supported.

This and a boost to local repairsystem bonusses (10% instead of 7.5% to armor rep amount) would make the astarte so much more useful.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.28 10:24:00 - [21]
 

Even if they aren't meant to be HAC on steroids Field command ships need some redoing.


Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2010.03.28 16:37:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/03/2010 16:40:45
Originally by: Nico Terces
Supported.

This and a boost to local repairsystem bonusses (10% instead of 7.5% to armor rep amount) would make the astarte so much more useful.


Removing it in favour of a 10% armor (or even shield, ha ha) HP bonus would make it so much more useful, honestly.

In fact, it would be a very interesting ship with a extra high, a tad more grid and armor HP bonus, being basically something with the gank and buffer of a BS with T2 resists on top (but minus the range and utility highs), and would make a lot of sense in certain types of gangs.


Jacob Stov
Posted - 2010.03.28 19:21:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/03/2010 16:40:45

Removing it in favour of a 10% armor (or even shield, ha ha) HP bonus would make it so much more useful, honestly.

In fact, it would be a very interesting ship with a extra high, a tad more grid and armor HP bonus, being basically something with the gank and buffer of a BS with T2 resists on top (but minus the range and utility highs), and would make a lot of sense in certain types of gangs.




I don't like that idea. Moves the game once more towards buffer tanks. Better give all them rep/boost bonused ships the same bonus to received RR.
Otherwise they would have the same issues as the Nidhoggur.
This way Hype and Mael can keep all their guns, are fine for solo and and in gangs paired with logsitics.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2010.03.28 20:43:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Jacob Stov

I don't like that idea. Moves the game once more towards buffer tanks. Better give all them rep/boost bonused ships the same bonus to received RR.


This is in fact a very good idea.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.03.29 09:49:00 - [25]
 

I like the Sleip and Nighthawk changes.

Sick with the extra med on the Absolution, for small gang and solo 4 mids are nice and for larger things a BS is superior anyway.

Astarte, well can't see any real improvement by a extra turret or a extra low. Diemost and Astarte really need something special that makes them worth over the Brutix/Mega or simply a proper DPS(plus dps projection at close range) to make the point blank suicide concept halve way interesting at the given price levels of the hulls.




Zilberfrid
Posted - 2010.03.29 21:30:00 - [26]
 

Supported, and best use the tier 2 models for the field command ships, they are there, they look good, use them (save for the Eos/Astarte, Brutix model fits the Astarte better, Myrmidon role fits the intended Eos role better).

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2010.03.30 06:55:00 - [27]
 

A bit more subtle than my idea. But I support anything that is a boost to field commands. (I have Commandship V also.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2010.03.30 19:14:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Zilberfrid
Supported, and best use the tier 2 models for the field command ships, they are there, they look good, use them (save for the Eos/Astarte, Brutix model fits the Astarte better, Myrmidon role fits the intended Eos role better).



Why do all you people persist in this annoying request?

If you must have a T2 ship that looks like the tier2 BC, then hey why not ask for a real new T2 ship based on it? Then you won't ruin a perfectly fine looking ship or 4.

Actually forget reason, just shut the hell up about your idea, its annoying and I want to bash heads in every time its mentioned.



P.s. Perhaps the best idea to buff he Field Command Ships is to first buff the tier1 battlecruisers and to pass on the buff to the T2 variants.

For all Tier1 Battlecruisers, reduce their signature a marginal amount, then improve their agility and max velocity. This way they are faster, more agile and harder to hit than the tier2 battlecruisers. This would make sense as its just doesn't make sense that the tier2's can have more EHP, more DPS, more slots, more PG & CP. And yet be the same size, agility and speed. Thats a WTF in my books.

Then give the Prophecy a little more armor and the Ferox a little more shield, then increase the Brutix and Cyclone's Capacitor Capacity a bit and increase their Repair bonus to 10%/lvl.

That would take care of a minor but suitable buff to the tier1's. If we pass those bonuses to the Tech2's. Then thats a good start.


What ever happens after for individual t2 buffs, I am down with it if it doesn't include hull changes....

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2010.03.31 11:03:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Nian Banks
Originally by: Zilberfrid
Supported, and best use the tier 2 models for the field command ships, they are there, they look good, use them (save for the Eos/Astarte, Brutix model fits the Astarte better, Myrmidon role fits the intended Eos role better).



Why do all you people persist in this annoying request?

If you must have a T2 ship that looks like the tier2 BC, then hey why not ask for a real new T2 ship based on it? Then you won't ruin a perfectly fine looking ship or 4.


Mostly because people want a gank and spank T2 ship that looks like the tier2 BC. So requests for that get answered with "but it would be more of the same".

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.03.31 13:28:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Nian Banks
Originally by: Zilberfrid
Supported, and best use the tier 2 models for the field command ships, they are there, they look good, use them (save for the Eos/Astarte, Brutix model fits the Astarte better, Myrmidon role fits the intended Eos role better).



Why do all you people persist in this annoying request?

If you must have a T2 ship that looks like the tier2 BC, then hey why not ask for a real new T2 ship based on it? Then you won't ruin a perfectly fine looking ship or 4.


Mostly because people want a gank and spank T2 ship that looks like the tier2 BC. So requests for that get answered with "but it would be more of the same".



Yes, a new T2 BC would need a role. There are two tiers of hulls that have not been given the T2 treatment, and they are arguably some of the best looking hulls in the game. Unlike the tier 3 BS, the tier2 BC already has a T2 ship with comparable bonuses that probably should have been on that hull.


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