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AI Alice
Posted - 2010.03.22 21:28:00 - [1]
 

how do u set torps to stagger fire?! and wat is the main purpose of this? thanks in advance!

Xenia Karaxis
XeniTech
Posted - 2010.03.22 21:46:00 - [2]
 

Ungroup your torp launchers and fire them slightly out of sync. I imagine it's mostly done by people who are too lazy/don't know how to group their launchers.

I suppose not grouping them makes it so you can switch damage types without deactivating all your launchers at the same time. You do also lose the advantage of a nice alpha strike from having all your torps hit at once if you do that though.

Also, it does look really cool.

Rahbek Rawrcake
Posted - 2010.03.23 02:19:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Rahbek Rawrcake on 23/03/2010 02:20:44
Originally by: Xenia Karaxis
Ungroup your torp launchers and fire them slightly out of sync. I imagine it's mostly done by people who are too lazy/don't know how to group their launchers.

I suppose not grouping them makes it so you can switch damage types without deactivating all your launchers at the same time. You do also lose the advantage of a nice alpha strike from having all your torps hit at once if you do that though.

Also, it does look really cool.


you do that to improve your dps in pve where the rats tend to shoot defenders at your missiles.
when you group your missile launchers you shoot only 1 big missile which has the same dmg as all single missiles together. however it also has a certain amount of Healthpoints equal to that number of single missiles. now if a defender hits your big single missile that you shoot with grouped launchers your missile loses a percentage of it's dmg equal to the percentage of health that it loses when it get's hit by the defender.
this does not apply to single missiles. rockets, standard missiles, heavy missiles, heavy assault and cruise missiles get destroyed when they get hit by a defender missile. torpedos require 2 defender hits to be destroyed. that makes them effectively immune to defenders when fighting rats since they usually only fire 1 defender every x seconds.
So just don't group siege missile launcher. it doesn't matter if you fire them slightly out of sync since it's all about not grouping them to improve your dps against rats.

and ofc it looks cooler ;)

Sandeep
Posted - 2010.03.23 02:52:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Rahbek Rawrcake
it doesn't matter if you fire them slightly out of sync since it's all about not grouping them to improve your dps against rats.

Actually it decreases DPS.

NPC can not fire more than one defender, ever, per one group of missiles (whether you have 1 missile, 4 missiles, or 7 missiles in the group). So, grouping them means less defender fired.

The only time you would split into multiple groups is when your volley damage is very high (such as torps) such that you would be waiting on the cooldown most of the time if you had only one group.


ChrisIsherwood
Posted - 2010.03.23 07:19:00 - [5]
 

I could be mistaken, but I believe I read that if you were going to join a post-Dominion fight/lag of > 1000 ships, then ungrouping weapons was a way to get some to fire occasionally.

Aurian Xaos
Posted - 2010.03.23 11:23:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Aurian Xaos on 23/03/2010 11:23:54
Does grouping lasers, (and guns/hybrids), make an alpha strike with damage greater than individuals weapons added together? i.e. do you get a bonus bit of damage? If not why group?

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2010.03.23 12:30:00 - [7]
 

Reasons for grouping:
- Assuming the code works, it should reduce calls -> less lag
- There's no "damage bonus" for grouping, but having all your damage come in volleys means that it can potentially break tanks, unlike "constant" damage
- Special case: passive shield tanks: since passive regeneration is greatest around 25 - 30 % shield strength. If your volleys can take the target shield from 30 % to below 25 %, the passive shield regeneration is broken.
- Special case: active tanks: If your rate of fire time is less than target repair/boost cycle time, if the target is just by just capable of repairing your entire volley, you will eventually get two volleys within his repair cycle, which may break his tank.

Reasons for not to group / have multiple weapon groups:
- Different damage types (with missiles and in limited capability with projectiles). See logs, pick the best one.
- Better looks (constant missile barrage, rainbow Abaddons)
- Shooting multiple targets at once

Aurian Xaos
Posted - 2010.03.23 12:49:00 - [8]
 

Mithfindel, thanks. Great explanation and now understood.

Cheers!

Ghengis Tia
Posted - 2010.03.23 20:37:00 - [9]
 

Stagger fire to interrupt the target ship's repair cycle.

6 launchers, 3 groups of two, ROF 7.5 seconds. Launch group 1, 2.5 secs later group 2, 2.5 secs after that, group 3.

The steady stream of impact on target will prevent the target from repping back up as much as if you fired all weapons at once, 7.5 secs apart.

Works for me, give it a try.


Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.03.24 04:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Sandeep
NPC can not fire more than one defender, ever, per one group of missiles (whether you have 1 missile, 4 missiles, or 7 missiles in the group). So, grouping them means less defender fired.


But this works right in with staggering torpedoes, since 1 defender will reduce volley damage of torps, where defenders will not reduce the damage of stagger-fired torps.

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.03.24 10:07:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ghengis Tia
Stagger fire to interrupt the target ship's repair cycle.

6 launchers, 3 groups of two, ROF 7.5 seconds. Launch group 1, 2.5 secs later group 2, 2.5 secs after that, group 3.

The steady stream of impact on target will prevent the target from repping back up as much as if you fired all weapons at once, 7.5 secs apart.

Works for me, give it a try.




A friend of mine swears by this. It effectively means EVE has the concept of 'interrupts' in the game, by accident or design. It would be useful if others agree that this happens or it's simply a graphical illusion or similar effect.

Beanard
Posted - 2010.03.26 13:53:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Zartrader
Originally by: Ghengis Tia
Stagger fire to interrupt the target ship's repair cycle.

6 launchers, 3 groups of two, ROF 7.5 seconds. Launch group 1, 2.5 secs later group 2, 2.5 secs after that, group 3.

The steady stream of impact on target will prevent the target from repping back up as much as if you fired all weapons at once, 7.5 secs apart.

Works for me, give it a try.




A friend of mine swears by this. It effectively means EVE has the concept of 'interrupts' in the game, by accident or design. It would be useful if others agree that this happens or it's simply a graphical illusion or similar effect.


Illusion, the repper will rep the same amount per cycle that it always does.

Eurulf Ofinur
Minmatar
Red Ochre Mining and Exploration
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
Posted - 2010.03.26 19:49:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: ChrisIsherwood
I could be mistaken, but I believe I read that if you were going to join a post-Dominion fight/lag of > 1000 ships, then ungrouping weapons was a way to get some to fire occasionally.


Yes. In highly laggy conditions, a weapon can sometimes become "stuck", for some period of time, or even the entire fight. It's best to not have all your guns in one group, so if the issue does occur it doesn't take out all of your guns at once.

Ensa Rai
Posted - 2010.03.26 20:43:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Eurulf Ofinur
Originally by: ChrisIsherwood
I could be mistaken, but I believe I read that if you were going to join a post-Dominion fight/lag of > 1000 ships, then ungrouping weapons was a way to get some to fire occasionally.


Yes. In highly laggy conditions, a weapon can sometimes become "stuck", for some period of time, or even the entire fight. It's best to not have all your guns in one group, so if the issue does occur it doesn't take out all of your guns at once.


Ungrouping doesn't help lag, turning auto-repeat off does.

Noun Verber
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.27 02:50:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Sandeep
NPC can not fire more than one defender, ever, per one group of missiles (whether you have 1 missile, 4 missiles, or 7 missiles in the group). So, grouping them means less defender fired.


But this works right in with staggering torpedoes, since 1 defender will reduce volley damage of torps, where defenders will not reduce the damage of stagger-fired torps.


The statement is that if you have 7 in the volley, the defender takes out 1 and 6 hit. Ungrouped you fire 7 times and the defenders could take out 1 per volley (theoretically) meaning none hit

Beki 250
Posted - 2010.03.29 00:54:00 - [16]
 

Two things, say I, holding up three fingers.

I'm doing 'Break Their Will' for an L1 agent. The ship is a Heron with 2 X TE-2100s, one loaded with Flameburst and the other with Sabretooth. The ships involved were Gisti Rogues and a Hijacker. (Before you mention it, there's no logic to the loadout. I just like the results I get with it, and use it everywhere. The Flamebursts also let me know when I get a hit.)

They were able to repair their shields and armor completely in between volleys. (ROF = 10.67 seconds) I was getting no where, so I tried staggering the shots, and they weren't able to make repairs before the second missile arrived. They went pretty fast after that.

That leaves the 4 Point Defense Towers with Defenders. It really didn't seem to me that it made a difference whether I staggered the missiles or not. I watched all 4 engagements, and seriously, stagger or volley just didn't seem to matter.

Now for the embarrassing admission. I've been trying to group my weapons for months and can't figure it out. The weapons are identical. I unload the ammunition and undock. I open the grouping menu and enter grouping mode. I can drag and drop 'til my fingers fall off, but the weapons won't drop on top of the one I want to use the fire button for. (I want to group so all fire when the F1 key is pushed.)

Any suggestions? When people say unload the weapons, do they mean remove the ammunition, or un-fit the weapon? I haven't tried un-fitting the weapons because that seems counter intuitive.

HELP!!!!!

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.03.29 00:59:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Zartrader on 29/03/2010 01:06:42







It means unload ammunition. You seem to be dong it right (it's shift drag in the station fittings and grouping mode in space) Also what you say about interrupting NPC's ties in with what my friend swears by when he tested it, I wonder if its only on Level 1 or 2 missions though as it's those he is doing.

The problem with EVE is the layout for space is not the same as the fitting screen (don't know why, its CCP, best not to ask but probably because this game is module programmed with no consistency between two parts of the game) so you could remove the one for F1, go to space and see which one it is and then group to that. I'm sure someone else can give you a better way though.

Tokeshii Kovacs
Posted - 2010.03.29 08:58:00 - [18]
 

When in space you can simply drag the modules to whatever corresponding key slot you want to use it on, you don't need to get it right in the fitting dialog. You don't even need to unload or be in grouping mode.

try it.



Beki 250
Posted - 2010.03.29 10:41:00 - [19]
 

Is there any visual indication when they are grouped? I tried the method suggested above, and sure enough, when I drag it displays all the possible places to drop, but they still don't seem to be grouped.

A horrible possibility has just occurred to me. Do I have to drop them on a spot that doesn't already have a weapon assigned to it?

Tokeshii Kovacs
Posted - 2010.03.29 12:01:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Tokeshii Kovacs on 29/03/2010 12:02:32
If you want to group them you have to unload the ammo, enter grouping mode and then drag them on top of each other. It can only be done with identical weapons.

but if you just want to change the keyboard key that activates a single weapon or group you can come out of grouping mode & just drag the weapon or weapon group to wherever you want it.

If weapons are grouped they take up a single icon & have a small number on the icon indicating how many weapons are in that group.

Hope this helps

Eric Policky
Posted - 2010.03.29 12:13:00 - [21]
 

You don't have to be in space to group weapons. Simply unload the ammo from the weapons, and in the fitting screen press shift and drag one weapon on top of another identical weapon. They are now grouped. If you have more than 2 weapons you would like to group, press shift and drag the third (then fourth, fifth, etc) weapon onto one of the weapons in the group.

You might have to press shift as you drag them to group them in space as well, not sure.

Jaak 242
Posted - 2010.03.29 17:38:00 - [22]
 

I tried Shift-Drag and drop on the fitting screen inside the station. No joy.

I tried Shift-Drag and drop in space. No joy.

The weapons were unloaded 250mm Light Gallium I Cannons on a Rifter and I was in grouping mode while I tried it in space. I did notice that I can drag the cannon activated with the F3 button to the F4 button, and drop it there, but I can't drop anything on top of it. I've tried dropping them all around the place where I want them, and they just don't stack.

I must be doing something fundamentally wrong, but I don't have any idea what it might be.

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2010.03.29 17:47:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Alexeph Stoekai on 29/03/2010 17:47:10
Staggering turrets can help with cap stability - probably for the same reasons why large volleys are good against passive recharging shields.

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.03.29 18:29:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Zartrader on 29/03/2010 18:34:53



Originally by: Jaak 242
I tried Shift-Drag and drop on the fitting screen inside the station. No joy.

I tried Shift-Drag and drop in space. No joy.

The weapons were unloaded 250mm Light Gallium I Cannons on a Rifter and I was in grouping mode while I tried it in space. I did notice that I can drag the cannon activated with the F3 button to the F4 button, and drop it there, but I can't drop anything on top of it. I've tried dropping them all around the place where I want them, and they just don't stack.

I must be doing something fundamentally wrong, but I don't have any idea what it might be.


Rearranging in space is not grouping, its just reassigning keybindings and icon position. It's nothing to do with grouping in itself.

In space when you enter grouping mode it removes the icons for those modules you cannot group. You drag and drop (on top of it as you said) then when done exit grouping mode. That's all there is to it. If you see the icon and drag and drop does not work it sounds like a bug so maybe clear your cache ingame and try the repair tool in the EVE folder. The weapons have to be exactly the same but you have said they are. Also make sure the lock modules toggle is not switched on (it's an inspace option) as this may stop it working. But if it was that you should not be able to move them at all.

I would also suggest you try it with other weapons, maybe two launchers or something on another ship to see if its a bug or not. It may be that weapon does not have grouping mode for some reason but I've not heard of that. My Rifter setup has cannons and I group fine.

Beki 250
Posted - 2010.03.30 23:00:00 - [25]
 

How does one 'clear the cache'? I've seen this mentioned many times but have no idea how to do it.

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.03.30 23:29:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Beki 250
How does one 'clear the cache'? I've seen this mentioned many times but have no idea how to do it.


Go to game options (escape key) and it's in there under one of the tabs. It's better than doing it manually, which used to be required and you may see posts about that, as it does not destroy other settings. It does not always fix a problem but worth a try. There is also a repair.exe in the CCP folder on the hard drive.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.03.30 23:33:00 - [27]
 

Some bad info in this thread, so straight from CCP: Weapon Grouping

I especially recommend reading the part on defender missiles.



 

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