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drivinggod
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2010.03.22 18:15:00 - [1]
 

I'm about to finish training Caldari cruiser 5 and whilst I've come to the conclusion that long term I want to cross train Minmatar, in the short term I've got a skill so I might as well use it - its an opportunity to play with some new toys. I've been away from Eve for awhile though, so I don't really know whats worth flying.

I keep hearing mixed reviews of the Caldari HAC's - the Cerb sounds like a lighter, nimbler (but less tanked) Drake and the Eagle seems to be consigned to the role of long range sniper. How true is this? And which of the two (if either) are worth using for a bit of ratting - and how much more effective are they at this than a Drake?

For gang work I was thinking about the Onyx and the Falcon - are there any others I'm overlooking?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.03.22 18:22:00 - [2]
 

Cerb works pretty well for Guristas & Serp ratting.

drivinggod
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2010.03.22 21:49:00 - [3]
 

Any other comments? Good or bad, I'm keen to hear what people think of the T2 Caldari Cruisers.

Denuo Secus
Posted - 2010.03.22 21:55:00 - [4]
 


Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2010.03.22 22:27:00 - [5]
 

Caldari T2 cruisers are a fairly solid line up, the Cerb is a great roaming gang ship mainly due to its ability to engage right across the field which is useful when you have lots of ships like Vagabonds and ceptors running around tackling and chasing down targets across a 50-100km area and its missile velocity bonus negates some of the missile travel delay. The Eagle is an acceptable sniping HAC but there is a lot of overlap between the Cerb and Eagle and the missile travel time factor isn't totally relevant sometimes with the growing popularity of Logistic ship heavy gangs and when fighting RR BS gangs as you plenty of time for missiles to do their work and the Eagle has fitting and cap issues so personally I would almost always choose the Cerb because of its higher damage output and the fact it can fit a buffer without resorting to fitting mods.

Whether you would choose a Drake or Cerb is down to mobility because its hard work to keep up with a fast moving sniping or roaming HAC gang with a Drake. The Basilisk is another solid ship and is useful in many situations if you have at least one partner in the same ship.

The Onyx is pretty much a no-brainer as its a very good HIC and even arguably one of the best. The Falcon and Rook as ECM boats don't really need much embellishment and the choice between them is down whats more important for you at that time and its a choice between extra damage output for your gang or the ability to cloak/work with black ops gangs.

Ratting wise the Drake is probably a better choice than the Cerb.

drivinggod
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2010.03.22 23:26:00 - [6]
 

Thanks for the replies - the linked topic was very informative as well.

It hadn't even crossed my mind to look at a Tengu, I'd just assumed it'd take alot of training to get into one. Sounds like a much more solid option for ratting and nowhere near as much training as I'd expected to get into it. I think I'll pick up a Cerb for gang work and give it a quick try in the belts - see if I can sit at 100km and avoid absorbing damage. If it doesn't work I'll leave it purely for PVP, and start training towards a Tengu.

Zaq Phelps
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.03.23 02:53:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: drivinggod
Thanks for the replies - the linked topic was very informative as well.

It hadn't even crossed my mind to look at a Tengu, I'd just assumed it'd take alot of training to get into one. Sounds like a much more solid option for ratting and nowhere near as much training as I'd expected to get into it. I think I'll pick up a Cerb for gang work and give it a quick try in the belts - see if I can sit at 100km and avoid absorbing damage. If it doesn't work I'll leave it purely for PVP, and start training towards a Tengu.


100km? Cerb can tank just fine from 0km. It's speed and sig radius on top of a decent passive or active tank makes it on par with the drake as far as ratting effeciency. In fact, in many ways it makes an even better ratter than the drake, bc it stands a better chance of getting away if bad things happen.

That said - Tengu > Cerb when it comes to using Caldari Cruisers for ratting.

Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2010.03.23 15:25:00 - [8]
 

I trained Tengu first, because it needs less skills than TII cruisers, and it is awesome in pve.

Rook (small gang dps & ecm) and Onyx (med gang heavy tackle) are the two Caldari TII cruiser I want for pvp.
But I'll probably get Falcon (med gang ecm & optional scout), Cerberus (med gang anti-frigates), Basilisk (med gang or pos remote) in case I need them.

I don't train hybrids, so, no points in having an eagle.

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2010.03.23 17:09:00 - [9]
 

On a scale of 1-4, where...

1 = bad, up to the point where it's almost never a good idea to buy it or fly it.
2 = disappointing, not competetive within it's class but functional.
3 = good, solid without shining or being the best choice for the job.
4 = very good, where it stands out within it's class or in a particular setting.

Onyx = 3
Cerb = 3
Eagle = 1
Falcon = 3
Rook = 4
Basilisk = 3

Compared to:

Vagabond = 4
Muninn = 4
Rapier = 4
Huginn = 3
Broadsword = 3
Scimitar = 4

Deimos = 1
Ishtar = 4
Arazu = 4
Lachesis = 2
Oneiros = 3
Phobos = 2

Zealot = 4
Sacrilege = 3
Pilgrim = 2
Curse = 4
Guardian = 4
Devoter = 3

Note: I'm not listing Tech III cruisers or Command ships to save space.

If you want the rationale behind the list, i guess you'll have to ask for it.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.03.23 17:16:00 - [10]
 

If you want to solo then the only Caldari t2 ship that works well is the Rook to be honest. Some people use Blaster Eagles/Falcons, HAM Cerberus' but I think they aren't as competitive as the racial alternatives. Both the HAM Drake for solo, and the HML Drake for small-med gang are fairly though. Tengu is also a really nice solo ship, great in small gangs too.

Rooks, Falcons, Onyxs are always great gang ships though. Cerberus/Eagle both do good damage at range, although I would say that the Zealot/Muninn are better LR Hacs, Basilisk is fairly solid, although its not as good at mobile gangs (LR HACs etc) as the Scimitar is.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.03.23 17:25:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Noisrevbus
On a scale of 1-4, where...


You're more of a fan of the Sacrilege than I am. I rate the HICs as all pretty much equal; you've rated the Phobos lower, but it has the additional medslot for a sensor booster or ECCM, over the Devoter. Rating the Arazu above the Falcon is kinda crazy too. I might go for something like:

All HICs = 3

Cerb = 4
Eagle = 3
Falcon = 4
Rook = 4
Basilisk = 2

Compared to:

Vagabond = 4
Muninn = 3
Rapier = 4
Huginn = 3
Scimitar = 4

Deimos = 1
Ishtar = 3
Arazu = 3
Lachesis = 2
Oneiros = 3

Zealot = 4
Sacrilege = 1
Pilgrim = 2
Curse = 4
Guardian = 4

Take Enemy
Archron Dusyfe Industries
Posted - 2010.03.25 07:01:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Take Enemy on 25/03/2010 07:01:54
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Noisrevbus
On a scale of 1-4, where...


You're more of a fan of the Sacrilege than I am. I rate the HICs as all pretty much equal; you've rated the Phobos lower, but it has the additional medslot for a sensor booster or ECCM, over the Devoter. Rating the Arazu above the Falcon is kinda crazy too. I might go for something like:

All HICs = 3

Cerb = 4
Eagle = 3
Falcon = 4
Rook = 4
Basilisk = 2

Compared to:

Vagabond = 4
Muninn = 3
Rapier = 4
Huginn = 3
Scimitar = 4

Deimos = 1
Ishtar = 3
Arazu = 3
Lachesis = 2
Oneiros = 3

Zealot = 4
Sacrilege = 1
Pilgrim = 2
Curse = 4
Guardian = 4


Sorry, had to jump in here. Rating the Sacrilege a 1 has got to be a sin or something. Great PVP ship - especially the duel rep version - and not a bad ratting ship when compared to the other HAC's. It's a solid 3.


**Edits for spelling.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2010.03.25 08:15:00 - [13]
 

Never saw much point for using a Cerb over a Drake. Neither is particularly fast for it's class. Both get caught easily at gatecamps. But drake is tougher, has light drones, and is alot cheaper.


Vigaz
Posted - 2010.03.25 10:24:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Noisrevbus
On a scale of 1-4, where...

1 = bad, up to the point where it's almost never a good idea to buy it or fly it.
2 = disappointing, not competetive within it's class but functional.
3 = good, solid without shining or being the best choice for the job.
4 = very good, where it stands out within it's class or in a particular setting.




Top T2 cruiser
Force Recon = Arazu (Falcon 2nd)
Combat Recon = Rook (Curse 2nd)
Hac (sniper/no point) = Zelot
Hac (solo/point) = Vagabond
Logistic = Scimitar

All HIC = 3

Cerb = 2
Eagle = 3
Falcon = 3
Rook = 4 best
Basilisk = 3

Compared to:

Vagabond = 4 best
Muninn = 2
Rapier = 3
Huginn = 3
Scimitar = 4 best

Deimos = 2
Ishtar = 3
Arazu = 4 best
Lachesis = 3
Oneiros = 3

Zealot = 4 best
Sacrilege = 2
Pilgrim = 3
Curse = 3
Guardian = 3

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.03.25 11:32:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Take Enemy

Sorry, had to jump in here. Rating the Sacrilege a 1 has got to be a sin or something. Great PVP ship - especially the duel rep version - and not a bad ratting ship when compared to the other HAC's. It's a solid 3.


Sorry, I just don't see the point. I trained specifically for it, I've flown it and I have HAM Spec V, and I just don't see the point. It's not just a case of Deimos syndrome; the slot layout is too restrictive - you can't get a worthwhile shield buffer kiting fit because of shield resists and lack of midslots together with short-range HAMs, and to get a decent armour tank results in crippled mobility and low DPS.

I'd love to be proved wrong, so I'd be very interested in your fits and experiences, but my experiences with the Sac have just left me wondering why I didn't just bring a Drake. Sad

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.03.25 12:27:00 - [16]
 

Cerb is great for 0.0 ratting because you can hit from over 100km so it's hard for people to warp in on you, ideal for chaining belts. The other T2 cruisers are pretty much pvp oriented though you could use an onyx for tanking plexes.

Originally by: Gypsio III

my experiences with the Sac have just left me wondering why I didn't just bring a Drake. Sad


My experiences with a drake have sometimes left me wondering why I didn't bring a sac, sure it doesn't have the tank n gank of the drake but it's a damn sight easier to catch people when you're solo.

[Sacrilege, atheist]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I


Warrior II x3

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.03.25 15:24:00 - [17]
 

My experiences flying the Cerb have been very good, and in the right situations it's a perfectly viable alternative to the Drake.
The tank on it isn't actually that bad either if you fit it right.

Gibbo3771
Posted - 2010.03.25 15:25:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat
Cerb is great for 0.0 ratting because you can hit from over 100km so it's hard for people to warp in on you, ideal for chaining belts. The other T2 cruisers are pretty much pvp oriented though you could use an onyx for tanking plexes.

Originally by: Gypsio III

my experiences with the Sac have just left me wondering why I didn't just bring a Drake. Sad


My experiences with a drake have sometimes left me wondering why I didn't bring a sac, sure it doesn't have the tank n gank of the drake but it's a damn sight easier to catch people when you're solo.

[Sacrilege, atheist]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I


Warrior II x3



I dont even fly missile ships and i am pretty damn sure hams need a web to do any real damage?

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.03.25 18:10:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Gibbo3771

I dont even fly missile ships and i am pretty damn sure hams need a web to do any real damage?


Depends on what you're hunting, if it's something slow and you need all that damage then you're better off with a drake but IME the drake's just too slow to catch anything that doesn't want to fight you.

Yes a web will increase your damage but the above fit is designed for kiting beyond web range, I do this so that if (when) my targets backup arrives I still have some options left. If you want to get in scram range then you'd want a web and also probably want to drop the nano for an EANM as it makes a noticeable difference to your tank.

Gibbo3771
Posted - 2010.03.26 03:08:00 - [20]
 

cheers for learig that up :)

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2010.03.26 05:48:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Noisrevbus on 26/03/2010 06:34:48
Quote:
You're more of a fan of the Sacrilege than I am. I rate the HICs as all pretty much equal; you've rated the Phobos lower, but it has the additional medslot for a sensor booster or ECCM, over the Devoter. Rating the Arazu above the Falcon is kinda crazy too.


In return, i'd like to turn your arguments around and ask:
- What is it you dislike in the Sacrilege? It's decent in a fast ganky fit, and excel as close range support in an armor gang.
- Why do you belive the Falcon to be a better ship, is it just because of some drummed up superiority of ECM?
- Why do you belive a sensor booster or ECCM would make the Phobos compare, when it's main trait don't require targets?
- Why on earth would you give the horrible Eagle a 3? What is it's redeeming feature that you belive put it up there?

Shaitis
Caldari
Fallen Angel's
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2010.03.26 07:59:00 - [22]
 

Cerberus - it can shoot targets and and significant DPS from 150 KM + - its extreme usefull imho in fleet. Its not an option in drake
Rook/Falcon - overrated imho, both ships will die to fast in fleet ;(
Eagle - hmm, it is good for frigate's sniping only. Its useless - Ferox can do it better at same range with bigger DPS.

You can fit Sac with 100MWD just for s..t and giggles. :)

Pilgrim is best cyno recon for moving capitals.
Arazu best cyno for stealthy hotdrops

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.03.26 08:23:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Noisrevbus
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 26/03/2010 06:34:48
Quote:
You're more of a fan of the Sacrilege than I am. I rate the HICs as all pretty much equal; you've rated the Phobos lower, but it has the additional medslot for a sensor booster or ECCM, over the Devoter. Rating the Arazu above the Falcon is kinda crazy too.


In return, i'd like to turn your arguments around and ask:
- What is it you dislike in the Sacrilege? It's decent in a fast ganky fit, and excel as close range support in an armor gang.
- Why do you belive the Falcon to be a better ship, is it just because of some drummed up superiority of ECM?
- Why do you belive a sensor booster or ECCM would make the Phobos compare, when it's main trait don't require targets?
- Why on earth would you give the horrible Eagle a 3? What is it's redeeming feature that you belive put it up there?


1. The fits I've looked at, and used, can be split into two types - missile Deimos and kiter. I'm going to disregard the "missile Deimos" straight away as a suicide self-tackling lossmail requiring logistics support to be worthwhile. That leaves the kiting option. I'll take yani's fit above as a model for that, although I'd really like to drop the SeBo for a FN web for better range control, tackling ability and application of DPS, particularly against frigates.

1800 m/s is nice, but 250 DPS tank is unremarkable, and 400 DPS is okay but nothing special - A Cerberus can do that from 200 km. The thing that really hurts it for me is the HAM range of 20 km in EFT, meaning ~18 km in practice. That really doesn't leave much room for manoeuvre between getting tackled yourself and drifting out of HAM range. At this point I start wondering whether I'd be better off in a Rook or Cerberus. They may not have the tackle, but they have similar DPS that is much more easily applied.

Thinking about it more, I do see a role for that Sacrilege in gang. As a Vaga/Cyna tackler, where frigates would just get shredded. Have you had experience of this?

2. I like the Arazu, and I've used it very successfully as a scout and tackler in gang, for applying a 72 km point to mission-runners and for surprising Vagas etc, while the damps are effective at disabling kiting logistics cruisers etc. But the Falcon performs the scout 'n' probe role just as well, can also get the initial tackle if you so desire, and obviously has ECM too.

3. Outside 0.0, the focused script has to be used. The extra medslot also gives the option of a web or scrambler to keep a mobile target tackled, in addition to the aforementioned SeBo or ECCM. Back in 0.0 in the supercap tackling role, the extra medslot can be used for a cap injector for defence against neuts, although I appreciate that multiple Nos is normally used for this. I don't think I'd contest that, overall, the Devoter is strictly "better", but I see uses for the Phobos.

4. At 100 km, more DPS than a Muninn with over three times the tracking.

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.03.26 08:48:00 - [24]
 

I just cant see the Eagle as great since the Ferox can do it all Better and have a way bigger tank, sure its slower but at those ranges who cares, and the Eagle aint a Twinke Toes anyways Wink

I think the Cerb though is a very solid machine and if it wasnt for my Drake I would use it all the time. But when I fly in fleets its trying to help my Noobs so I wanna have as much Tank and Brawl in me as I can so I can go in and take DMG when they or I screw up. It def ***uld be good in larger fleets as anti support but Unfortunatrly I fly in RR Arm Fleets when I do that. Sad

Top T2 cruiser
Force Recon = Falcon (Arazu)
Combat Recon = Rook Tied Curse
Hac (sniper/no point) = Zelot
Hac (solo/point) = Vagabond
Logistic = Scimitar

All HIC = 3

Cerb = 3.5 At its role its awesome, I have notticed Lo Sec guys who are crck pilots IMO like Gypsio and other Tama Dwellers Love it
Eagle = 2---Lackluster use a Ferox.
Falcon = 3.5---Just because its not WTFPWN its amazing at its role
Rook = 3.5---Tied IMO with Curse both are kinda hard to do PVP in practice, On paper they can but its diff in REAL EVE
Basilisk = 3

Compared to:

Vagabond = 3.75---I hear its Kick ass
Muninn = 2
Rapier = 3
Huginn = 3
Scimitar = 4--Best overall Logi

Deimos = 1.5 --Bad, A RAx is as good all round isk in consideration, bad bang for buck.
Ishtar = 3.75-- One of if not best all round Hac between PVP/PVE
Arazu = 3--Hear its good
Lachesis = 3
Oneiros = 3

Zealot = 3.5 best ---Great sniper but its not perfect.
Sacrilege = 2.5 ---Great potential but rather use Cerb
Pilgrim = 3 ---Hear great things havent used it
Curse = 3.75---My personal Favorite maybe nostalga but I remeber the A$$ [email protected] it inflicted.
Guardian = 3

Pretty much without Group support non of the Cald ships except Drake are worth it IMO, Best all round solo Class is still Minni then Gal but minni`s whole lineup is great solo, Gal has its amazing ships and Amarr has a gew excellent ones but is better Group


 

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