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Zlake
Smashing Atoms
Manicorns
Posted - 2010.03.21 15:27:00 - [1]
 

In terms of isk per hour.

0.0 complexes if they were not so many other players in your 0.0 competing over the same sites. Even when you have found a half good site after spending all that time searching for one you still don't get that nice c,b,a,x mod you were after.

Anomalies are just on par with level 4s if anything lower because you probably wont want to risk that 1billion isk ship out there ratting running into the issue of getting probed out or there being HIC on the station waiting to catch you as you try to dock.(some 0.0 is fairly safe and wont have to worry about that as much as long as you watch local and read intel)

Level 5s do
If you are in a carrier solo but not a lot of missions allow that or if you got a lot of friends and or alts that can take them on.

FW missions
Some level 4s still give 10-20k lp but all I have seen are ones with less LP than the level 3 missions and we know the reason to that.

Trading
dunno on this one. Its a litty iffy for me. I make a fair amount of isk with it but comes down to a lot of things.

So the question is what is worth while other than listed above that beats level 4s?

Smoking Blunts
Posted - 2010.03.21 15:42:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Smoking Blunts on 21/03/2010 15:42:17
nothing beats lv4 mission income on a per hour bases. especially when you think of how safe you are in your multi billion isk ship

0.0 anoms dont come close when you factor in LP, even before lp payments are less genrally

0.0 sigs dont come close as there are now so many of them even the good drops are so frequent the price of items is crashing.

mining oh well forget i even mentioned that.


Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
Posted - 2010.03.21 15:47:00 - [3]
 

There's a few things that can break it like trading but nothing really consistent.

Cors
It's A Trap
It's A Trap Alliance
Posted - 2010.03.21 16:14:00 - [4]
 

the horrible truth, is that the best isk/hr return you are going to find is the market 1st, and PLEX's 2nd. Meaning buy a GTC, convert to PLEX and sell PLEX.

LVL 4's are good, and you can earn upwards of 50-75 mil an hour if run/utilized right, but the vast majority of folks don't run them right, so only make 20-30 mil/hr off of them.

So the answer is, market/GTC sales.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2010.03.21 16:28:00 - [5]
 

Market only really works because of all the mission runners throwing their modules away to the next best seller.

1600 RT
Posted - 2010.03.21 16:33:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Smoking Blunts
Edited by: Smoking Blunts on 21/03/2010 15:42:17
nothing beats lv4 mission income on a per hour bases. especially when you think of how safe you are in your multi billion isk ship


can you tell me where you feel so much safe in you multi billion ship please^

Ci Seepy
Amarr
Posted - 2010.03.21 16:37:00 - [7]
 

I hear that spamming contracts and giving away ISK in Jita local is a great way to make some extra spending money Twisted Evil

Kephael
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.03.21 16:42:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ci Seepy
I hear that spamming contracts and giving away ISK in Jita local is a great way to make some extra spending money Twisted Evil

The easiest isk ever made was with free-form contracts.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:11:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
Market only really works because of all the mission runners throwing their modules away to the next best seller.


You can make a lot of money station trading in things that have nothing whatsoever to do with missions. A lot of people sell to buy orders and a lot of people buy from sell orders in a lot of different types of items/materials. For example, moon materials. I'm pretty sure there is no way to get those from missions, and there's many of them you can easily buy (in Jita) with buy orders and then sell them with sell orders with a good profit margin.

Zlake
Smashing Atoms
Manicorns
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:12:00 - [10]
 

Its really sad to see that about 50%-90% of some low end minerals come from mission loot..
Mining right now yea is gutted and left to die. All of the good stuff is so common now it yields little cash. Its like hey I get mex in my -.01 system now w00t.

Most people run missions in npc corps if for any reason I wanted to grief player ran corps they would close em down and make a new corp. Simple as that. You can't touch the the people in the npc unless they stole from your can/they shoot you after you steal their mission loot. Last option is getting like 10-20 people to try to kill him not making it worth while to grief.

I don't pirate at all but pains me to see so much messed up because of high sec missions.

To keep the 0.0 pvper from making high sec mission alts they tossed him the system upgrades. As a result as mentioned above Deadspeace prices have dropped even more. They dropped when the new probing system came out because probing became really easy.

I still also question the cannon behind having such large pirate operations in high sec that are in most of these missions. We have large PIRATE battle ships sitting in space operating a HUGE smuggling operation or some other thing. O if a player pirate warped to one of these concord wtf pawn him in a few seconds. That is another thing that bothers me.

AdmiralJohn
Gallente
Origin of Sanshaa
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:16:00 - [11]
 

This is why I get ****ed off when level 4 mission runners ***** and moan about ninja salvagers.

Like seriously. They're already playing Eve on easy, and they want more?

genette devo
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:19:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: AdmiralJohn
This is why I get ****ed off when level 4 mission runners ***** and moan about ninja salvagers.

Like seriously. They're already playing Eve on easy, and they want more?


I run lvl 4 missions and I hate people whining about ninja salvagers,
I have been doing it for quite a while and have been ninja salvaged a grand total of 3 times

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:20:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Zlake
I still also question the cannon behind having such large pirate operations in high sec that are in most of these missions. We have large PIRATE battle ships sitting in space operating a HUGE smuggling operation or some other thing. O if a player pirate warped to one of these concord wtf pawn him in a few seconds. That is another thing that bothers me.


Concord is just a game mechanic to keep players in check. Obviously a bunch of invulnerable ships that instakill you have no root in lore or reality. The reason they don't bother with petty NPC pirates is because that's what the players are for.

Originally by: AdmiralJohn
This is why I get ****ed off when level 4 mission runners ***** and moan about ninja salvagers.

Like seriously. They're already playing Eve on easy, and they want more?


The vast majority of mission runners don't care about ninja salvagers. Neither do the vast majority make anywhere close to 50m or more per hour. Most mission income is competitive, in case you're too dumb to realize it (since most comes from LP which = market sales = competition) and if most were utilizing that properly then each would be making much, much less.

AdmiralJohn
Gallente
Origin of Sanshaa
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:25:00 - [14]
 

I'm not saying all mission runners complain, but the ones that do are truly terrible. They still make more ISK without risking much at all. As long as they have an IQ above 90 odds are they're safe.

The risk versus reward ratio on level 4 missions is way out of alignment with the rest of the game.

Siouxsie Xai
Gallente
The Golden Ankh
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:36:00 - [15]
 

LIke verything else in the game ( unless you make exhumers ) The level 4 iskies earned is down.

Of the mins only pyrite has increased in value, null sec min prices plummeted but mining crokite in teh hulk still beats most level 4 mission runners. If your refering to the few with billion dollar ships and mods with 6 digits in sp points, then that is not the majority of level 4 mission runners. Currently I make just as much mining scordite with an alt than I do running level 4. Some of the reasons are

Mins are down so refining level 4 drone drops and reprocessing t1 modules sucks atm.
Modules are cheaper than ever for the most part.
Salvaged goods seem to suffer the same crash mins did, with only armor plates increasing in value.
11% loss in bounties thanks to anti carebear whining. ( this should have been accompadied with higher war dec cost, but we know who it is CCP truly loves most :P )

The reason that is my fault is I went broke training up an alt. Lost a ship to pirates, got podded in wspace, and took a few months off. So as I get back on track I may be making an addendum Embarassed

( yes the pirates used 2 ships against me, yes they where pvp fit and I was pve, yes it took them 10 minutes because they where all modules and no skill. Got hit with just aboiut every ew there is lol, oh and yes this is why low sec missioning does not happen, now if I had some pve mods thatcan helpme in pvp..... but then the pirates would whine about the loss of easy kills )

Did I start rambling? sorry about that.

Apoctasy
Lethal Injection.
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:39:00 - [16]
 

scamming fake megathron navy issues at your local trade hub

Zlake
Smashing Atoms
Manicorns
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:39:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Wet Ferret


Concord is just a game mechanic to keep players in check. Obviously a bunch of invulnerable ships that instakill you have no root in lore or reality. The reason they don't bother with petty NPC pirates is because that's what the players are for.



Use to be able to kill Concord. They are there to keep the laws of high sec. Perty much your space police. You could sit there with battleships and kill people coming out of stations all day if you wanted.

Zlake
Smashing Atoms
Manicorns
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:46:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Siouxsie Xai
LIke verything else in the game ( unless you make exhumers ) The level 4 iskies earned is down.

Of the mins only pyrite has increased in value, null sec min prices plummeted but mining crokite in teh hulk still beats most level 4 mission runners. If your refering to the few with billion dollar ships and mods with 6 digits in sp points, then that is not the majority of level 4 mission runners. Currently I make just as much mining scordite with an alt than I do running level 4. Some of the reasons are

Mins are down so refining level 4 drone drops and reprocessing t1 modules sucks atm.
Modules are cheaper than ever for the most part.
Salvaged goods seem to suffer the same crash mins did, with only armor plates increasing in value.
11% loss in bounties thanks to anti carebear whining. ( this should have been accompadied with higher war dec cost, but we know who it is CCP truly loves most :P )

The reason that is my fault is I went broke training up an alt. Lost a ship to pirates, got podded in wspace, and took a few months off. So as I get back on track I may be making an addendum Embarassed

( yes the pirates used 2 ships against me, yes they where pvp fit and I was pve, yes it took them 10 minutes because they where all modules and no skill. Got hit with just aboiut every ew there is lol, oh and yes this is why low sec missioning does not happen, now if I had some pve mods thatcan helpme in pvp..... but then the pirates would whine about the loss of easy kills )

Did I start rambling? sorry about that.


I do level 5s in a carrier... I had people try to probe me down just kept warping around the system making new safes all over the damn sysystem. Did that for 15mins and logged. I was able to get away in a carrier doing a mission. I really don't see how hard it is for people to do things in low sec. They just have learn a little about the game other than the damage they have to use, what tank they need and what the triggers are. Only ships I lost in low sec doing missions was 2 SB doing FW missions because someone beat me to the gate.

Solid Star
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:51:00 - [19]
 

If mining is so bad then stop mining? What CCP should be looking at is the ratio to miners versus mission runners and determine what they believe is a correct ratio. If you have 99% mission runners and 1% miners, then you got something wrong. However, a LOT of people still mine. So why do they mine if it clearly makes less isk/hour? One factor that people conveniently ignore is 'effort'. The true cost of an activity is Duration * Effort * Risk. So when talking 'effort' you want to calculate how many mouse/keyboard clicks do you do in an hour with mining versus mission running? The minute you factor in 'effort' of an activity the differences between mission running and mining is not near as far apart.

Also, the value of isk is relative. CCP can EASILY make it so a miner will make 100mil/isk an hour. But is that really a lot if the raven you want to buy costs 300 mil? CCP has created a (relatively) free market system so if you want to look at true value you need to look at something like "How many rifters/hour can I buy from mining?". That would give you a more accurate picture of what you are making per hour.

Some of what I read about isk/hour is so ignorant and painful to read. However, I am confident that CCP understands how economics in Eve works and will make decisions based on KPIs and not from forum posts rants.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:55:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Solid Star
If mining is so bad then stop mining? What CCP should be looking at is the ratio to miners versus mission runners and determine what they believe is a correct ratio. If you have 99% mission runners and 1% miners, then you got something wrong. However, a LOT of people still mine. So why do they mine if it clearly makes less isk/hour? One factor that people conveniently ignore is 'effort'. The true cost of an activity is Duration * Effort * Risk. So when talking 'effort' you want to calculate how many mouse/keyboard clicks do you do in an hour with mining versus mission running? The minute you factor in 'effort' of an activity the differences between mission running and mining is not near as far apart.

Also, the value of isk is relative. CCP can EASILY make it so a miner will make 100mil/isk an hour. But is that really a lot if the raven you want to buy costs 300 mil? CCP has created a (relatively) free market system so if you want to look at true value you need to look at something like "How many rifters/hour can I buy from mining?". That would give you a more accurate picture of what you are making per hour.

Some of what I read about isk/hour is so ignorant and painful to read. However, I am confident that CCP understands how economics in Eve works and will make decisions based on KPIs and not from forum posts rants.


I think the reason mining is so low has alot to do with being able to mine semi-afk so easily. Hence alot of people do it 'on the side' while they a) have another char doing something else or b) are doing something else entirely like watch tv. The fact it's so simple also makes macro'ing easy.
And I guess reprocessed loot from missions doesn't help either, but honestly I don't know what ratio's we're talking about here.

Zlake
Smashing Atoms
Manicorns
Posted - 2010.03.21 17:58:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.02.04 15:20:00
To give more precise data as the 40% was a figure I used as an overall average was 'of the top of my head' during the meeting taken from the data below.

This was the one month split for all items reprocessed measured mid-august to mid-september 2008.


|| Mineral || Ore% || Loot% || Drone Compounds% ||
||-----------||------||-------||------------------||
|| Tritanium || 46% || 43% || 11% ||
|| Pyerite || 29% || 60% || 10% ||
|| Mexallon || 30% || 59% || 11% ||
|| Isogen || 21% || 56% || 23% ||
|| Nocxium || 18% || 32% || 51% ||
|| Zydrine || 43% || 18% || 40% ||
|| Megacyte || 44% || 39% || 16% ||
|| Morphite || 77% || 1% || 22% ||


* Ore is minerals from the asteroid ores
* loot is modules, ships, charges, drones for example.
* drone compounds are loot items from rogue drones

However, whatever conclusion you draw from those stats, be careful as it does not tell you much really such as how many people were mining or running missions. The number of people running missions is massive compared to number of miners and the source per person much lower overall however it is a large diffuse source. It is a similar story for anytime a player encounters the rogue drones.

The ongoing discussion we are having internally is really around the point of to what degree a specialist profession like mining should be adversely affected by another career path where this forms only one part of their total reward/income pool.

Nothing is happening on this front for Apocrypha but feel free to discuss this and I'll keep tabs on discussion as it is an interesting topic.

Xena Ryde
Posted - 2010.03.21 18:09:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Zlake
Originally by: Siouxsie Xai
LIke verything else in the game ( unless you make exhumers ) The level 4 iskies earned is down.

Of the mins only pyrite has increased in value, null sec min prices plummeted but mining crokite in teh hulk still beats most level 4 mission runners. If your refering to the few with billion dollar ships and mods with 6 digits in sp points, then that is not the majority of level 4 mission runners. Currently I make just as much mining scordite with an alt than I do running level 4. Some of the reasons are

Mins are down so refining level 4 drone drops and reprocessing t1 modules sucks atm.
Modules are cheaper than ever for the most part.
Salvaged goods seem to suffer the same crash mins did, with only armor plates increasing in value.
11% loss in bounties thanks to anti carebear whining. ( this should have been accompadied with higher war dec cost, but we know who it is CCP truly loves most :P )

The reason that is my fault is I went broke training up an alt. Lost a ship to pirates, got podded in wspace, and took a few months off. So as I get back on track I may be making an addendum Embarassed

( yes the pirates used 2 ships against me, yes they where pvp fit and I was pve, yes it took them 10 minutes because they where all modules and no skill. Got hit with just aboiut every ew there is lol, oh and yes this is why low sec missioning does not happen, now if I had some pve mods thatcan helpme in pvp..... but then the pirates would whine about the loss of easy kills )

Did I start rambling? sorry about that.


I do level 5s in a carrier... I had people try to probe me down just kept warping around the system making new safes all over the damn sysystem. Did that for 15mins and logged. I was able to get away in a carrier doing a mission. I really don't see how hard it is for people to do things in low sec. They just have learn a little about the game other than the damage they have to use, what tank they need and what the triggers are. Only ships I lost in low sec doing missions was 2 SB doing FW missions because someone beat me to the gate.



Yes because I want to jump around and take hours to finish a mish, and hope they do not grief the mish itself :P Besides your in a carrier, I am no where near able to do that yet lol.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.03.21 23:10:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Zlake
So the question is what is worth while other than listed above that beats level 4s?


For folks not willing to write spreadsheets or apply their brain to solving a problem, running missions is the best ISK/hr you'll get. Just get in there and blow stuff up.

For folks with more intelligence, there are several ideas in the Making ISK guide. Trading should be complementing some other income, such as T2 reactions, invention, moon harvesting, and so forth.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.03.22 02:26:00 - [24]
 

Doing L4s faster.

Natalia Erana
Posted - 2010.03.22 06:11:00 - [25]
 

I dunno why people are complaining about 0.0 anomalies.

I pull in nearly 60 million per hour in just bounties, without loot or salvage, and without any faction rats. And you don't have to worry about converting isk to lp either.

Could probably break 60mil isk/hour if I ran with a more efficient ship, atm I only have about 800 dps from turrets and 200 from drones.

Smoking Blunts
Posted - 2010.03.22 07:55:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Smoking Blunts on 22/03/2010 07:55:22
Originally by: Natalia Erana
I dunno why people are complaining about 0.0 anomalies.

I pull in nearly 60 million per hour in just bounties, without loot or salvage, and without any faction rats. And you don't have to worry about converting isk to lp either.

Could probably break 60mil isk/hour if I ran with a more efficient ship, atm I only have about 800 dps from turrets and 200 from drones.



when you compare that 60 mil per hour to the 60mil per hour that you easily get from mission running bounties and then you add a hour worth of lp, which is between 60 and 80 mil. anom's are hardly worth it, risk v rewards.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.03.22 08:55:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Smoking Blunts
...when you compare that 60 mil per hour to the 60mil per hour that you easily get from mission running bounties and then you add a hour worth of lp, which is between 60 and 80 mil. anom's are hardly worth it, risk v rewards.

You do not get 60m from mission bounties per hour!

Running efficiently and chosing which corp you mission for intelligently, you can earn ~70-80m per hour everything inclusive (bounties, reward, LP, loot, salvage)!
Note that this is still far too high for a super-safe occupation, but it is not quite as good as you say.

Tulisin Dragonflame
Posted - 2010.03.22 09:04:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Tulisin Dragonflame on 22/03/2010 09:06:27
Edited by: Tulisin Dragonflame on 22/03/2010 09:04:51
Originally by: Zlake
Originally by: Siouxsie Xai
LIke verything else in the game ( unless you make exhumers ) The level 4 iskies earned is down.

Of the mins only pyrite has increased in value, null sec min prices plummeted but mining crokite in teh hulk still beats most level 4 mission runners. If your refering to the few with billion dollar ships and mods with 6 digits in sp points, then that is not the majority of level 4 mission runners. Currently I make just as much mining scordite with an alt than I do running level 4. Some of the reasons are

Mins are down so refining level 4 drone drops and reprocessing t1 modules sucks atm.
Modules are cheaper than ever for the most part.
Salvaged goods seem to suffer the same crash mins did, with only armor plates increasing in value.
11% loss in bounties thanks to anti carebear whining. ( this should have been accompadied with higher war dec cost, but we know who it is CCP truly loves most :P )

The reason that is my fault is I went broke training up an alt. Lost a ship to pirates, got podded in wspace, and took a few months off. So as I get back on track I may be making an addendum Embarassed

( yes the pirates used 2 ships against me, yes they where pvp fit and I was pve, yes it took them 10 minutes because they where all modules and no skill. Got hit with just aboiut every ew there is lol, oh and yes this is why low sec missioning does not happen, now if I had some pve mods thatcan helpme in pvp..... but then the pirates would whine about the loss of easy kills )

Did I start rambling? sorry about that.




I do level 5s in a carrier... I had people try to probe me down just kept warping around the system making new safes all over the damn sysystem. Did that for 15mins and logged. I was able to get away in a carrier doing a mission. I really don't see how hard it is for people to do things in low sec. They just have learn a little about the game other than the damage they have to use, what tank they need and what the triggers are. Only ships I lost in low sec doing missions was 2 SB doing FW missions because someone beat me to the gate.



The problem is that lowsec mission income is so precariously better than hisec mission income that any little detriment makes it not worthwhile. Heck, the fact that you can't mission right next to a hub where you can easily sell everything might already eat up the tiny percentage boost that lowsec missioning gives.

Although, admittedly, using a carrier gives you a unique situation. If someone was running missions in a raven in 0.8 vs. 0.4, for instance, the second they have to run from their first player pirate they've elimated their entire gains for going to lowsec. God forbid they get a ship destroyed, it'll take a month of lowsec missioning bonuses to make that back.

tl;dr - Lowsec risk/inconvenience eats up any relative gain from tiny extra lowsec rewards.

CCP Applebabe

Posted - 2010.03.22 09:17:00 - [29]
 

Moved from EVE General Discussion.

Natalia Erana
Posted - 2010.03.22 09:21:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Smoking Blunts
Edited by: Smoking Blunts on 22/03/2010 07:55:22
Originally by: Natalia Erana
I dunno why people are complaining about 0.0 anomalies.

I pull in nearly 60 million per hour in just bounties, without loot or salvage, and without any faction rats. And you don't have to worry about converting isk to lp either.

Could probably break 60mil isk/hour if I ran with a more efficient ship, atm I only have about 800 dps from turrets and 200 from drones.



when you compare that 60 mil per hour to the 60mil per hour that you easily get from mission running bounties and then you add a hour worth of lp, which is between 60 and 80 mil. anom's are hardly worth it, risk v rewards.

I am pretty sure that you don't get anywhere near 60 mil per hour on just bounties. Before I moved to 0.0 my primary source of income was a Paladin and getting good isk/hour required a string of missions that were not only heavy on bounties but also had decent salvage as well and even with that I wasn't getting anywhere close to this much. Granted, I'm not very good at turning isk into LP, but also note that time spent moving stuff from your mission system to the market and stuff like that is time not directly spent iskmaking.

The point is I make 60 mil isk/hour doing anomalies (semi) casually. If I dualboxed marauders and took the time to loot and salvage the hordes of BS wrecks that get generated, the decreased kill time + loot and salvage could *probably* bring it up to 100 mil/hour.

The other thing is that with anomalies you're guaranteed a constant string of rats - when I was doing missions I'd get a couple bad missions in a row that I just didn't want to do cause they are annoying / bad isk / nuke standings, etc. Not a problem with anomalies, just log on when most of your alliance is asleep and chain sanctums for a few hours.

I was a pretty hardcore mission runner for a while and I definitely never got anywhere close to 60 million isk/hour, so I'm not sure how people can argue that you can "easily" get that much. I think you have to put in a lot of effort to milk missions that hard.


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