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Chick'n Nugget
Posted - 2010.03.11 14:26:00 - [1]
 

I am in one of the minor trade hubs and I am making a decent amount of money without too much effort.

I have often considered moving to Jita, but the general theme seems to be that if you can't update your orders often, it probably is not worth it.

I tend to update my orders 3 times a day: once when I wake up in the morning (7am), once when I get home from work (7pm) and once before I go to bed (10pm-12am).

Is that enough? Borderline? Way too little? I just don't know. I am pretty religious about it. I do it almost every day but I just don't know if it is worth my time and was wondering what other people thought.

Thanks

Aeneidae
Caldari
Quallity Assurance Business Unit
Posted - 2010.03.11 14:38:00 - [2]
 

In my limited experience, for items that move allot of units, 3 times a day is not enough. I update my orders every 5 mins (or more if I'm not getting outbid) until my batch of ships gets sold. If i update every 15-30 minutes it takes about 4-5 hours to sell my stuff. If i update every 5 mins i can cut this down to half.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.03.11 14:38:00 - [3]
 

2-3 times per week.

Rykker Bow
Posted - 2010.03.11 14:43:00 - [4]
 

way to little for most of the items. Implants tend to change in price every 5-10 minutes. There are a couple of times during the day where price adjustmens fall dramaticaly (for a couple of hours at least).

I change once in the morning, on and off during the afternoon, and during the evening. All in all I'd say 20 times a day and I bring in on average 10b worth of goods to resell.

Of course it only takes about 10 minutes to update my orders so there is a lot of free time in between adjustments.

I would suggest trying it out with an alt. Place a couple of orders and see what happens, you may be suprised. If you were thinking about moving your trading char to jita with only 3 adjustments per day you may not make as much isk as you are now

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.03.11 14:58:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 11/03/2010 14:59:00

this depends on how fast you want your capital turnover to be

prices in jita fluctuate a lot (in smaller tradehubs you have less competition and buyers; this makes prices rather static and changes pretty one-directional).

If you don't rely on an optimal turnover per item (say you are mainly managing buy orders and have maxed out margin trading), updating your orders one time per day is often enough to ensure they will get filled within 1-2 days.

One cannot stress enough that prices on both the buy and the sell sides do fluctuate upwards and downwards. It's not like buy orders only go up and sell orders get cheaper every hour (I know that's trivial, but it's amazing how many people seem to miss this simple fact).

Just make sure your prices are within the channel of probable fluctuations, there is no need to be always the highest buyer/lowest seller. Stick up your orders and wait for them getting hit by the natural fluctuations.

Of course you should watch out closely for trends (and avoid the items exhibiting strong trends) when using this strategy.

Andrea Erlang
Caldari
The Severed Hand Asylum
Posted - 2010.03.11 15:17:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Akita T
2-3 times per week.


...one of these days we're going to find out all of your secrets. Evil or Very Mad

OwMy Bawls
Posted - 2010.03.11 16:02:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: OwMy Bawls on 11/03/2010 16:03:12
Jita sucks, move on.

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.03.11 16:03:00 - [8]
 

For me it depends on the volume. If I have a large amount compared to volume I may update every hour or so, sometimes more often. If it has a volume that suggests those undercutting me will sell in half or day or so I may well leave it, especially if someone has been too aggressive in undercutting.

Elijah Zalman
Posted - 2010.03.11 16:27:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Akita T
2-3 times per week.



you having like 1200 orders on 3 chars amirite?

im currently trading jita, with 8 buy orders up! :D in 2 days i made 17m profit(started with 100m). i thought its going to be way better than this, welll maybe it will when i have atleast 50 orders going. sometime it gets so tiresome updating them every 5mins, but I like that feeling when i see my wallet blink :P

Jeneroux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.11 16:37:00 - [10]
 

Why limit to one hub?

Why not make price based on the charts and ignore the dynamic of the day trading strategy. The charts do not lie. You can buy/sell based on history or emotional reaction to order position. Then move on to next hub to look for deal and observe local for sale ideas.

Is better to sit and make money or go and make money?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.03.12 02:11:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 12/03/2010 02:34:47

Originally by: Elijah Zalman
you having like 1200 orders on 3 chars amirite?

More like, not even using half the slots on my single "useful" main character (and it's not even remotely fully trained max-orders-wise).

Originally by: Andrea Erlang
Originally by: Akita T
2-3 times per week
...one of these days we're going to find out all of your secrets. Evil or Very Mad

The secret is simple : laziness + patience Twisted Evil
Why do the hard work yourself, if the work can do itself instead (slightly slower) ?

If stuff doesn't sell in 2-3 days at whatever was the low price whenever you put it up, it (sometimes) means the price was constantly going down, and you shouldn't have been in that particular market to begin with. It usually sells anyway, even if it might take a while, if you picked the right items.
Ideally, you shouldn't even HAVE to adjust price at all - I only do that if my order has a way too high volume compared to daily volume in that item, and I set the order when margins were pretty high but now they're closer to normal (and I don't always adjust them even if they're NOT the lowest at the moment - I only undercut BIG volume orders, I let most "small fry" orders alone to be cleared by normal market forces).

Sure, you get more turnover if you keep adjusting orders all the time, but you get slightly lower margins, so overall, you might earn noticeably more ISK but spend orders of magnitude more time for it.
So, take your pick : 5-20% per month with minimal interaction (think maybe an hour or two per month)... or 20-80% per month with heavy interaction (think more than an hour per day). I know I'll be usually picking the former.

P.S. Of course, early on, when you're only working with millions instead of billions, it can be well over 100% profit per month. I was just talking about the point where you're trying to rotate several billions worth of investment money (the more you try to move, the lower the percentages you can expect).

Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2010.03.12 03:10:00 - [12]
 

If you want to retain low effort trading sticking to smaller hubs is a good idea. Jita is a ****fest at the best of times. You also get people who like ruining the spread for entertainment.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.03.12 09:15:00 - [13]
 

Quote:

you having like 1200 orders on 3 chars amirite?



By evaluating how Akita seems to act, probably 30 orders but placed with the brain.

I had never to use more than 47 orders myself.
Graphs exist for a reason.

Afra Raven
Posted - 2010.03.12 10:13:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Afra Raven on 12/03/2010 10:18:57
Edited by: Afra Raven on 12/03/2010 10:16:17
Jita is somewhat schizophrenic, there are Items which hardly have anyone active selling or buying although it has a great margin and enough turnover, easy money.
On the other hand there are items, were sell and buy orders are adjusted within seconds 24/7. Don't be there walk away as it's either a bot or an account shared by several traders which alternates their watch duties.
Bots are easy to discover and you can easy fool them if it's master isn't watching. Just kill the Donchian Channel with one or two buy orders. Start with 0.01 ISK over the best bid and wait for the bot to surpasss you, this will take usually only seconds. Overbid the bot with 10k or 100k steps, repeat that until you reach the margin the player told the bot to stop buying. To speed that up you can place one or two low sell order to lessen the margin. It's an easy Newton iteration to find out the margin.
If you reach the margin the bot stops buying usually all "higher" buy orders the bot made to surpass you will be deleted and the bots stops biding and wait for orders. Now you place your order a tiny bit over the best last order and the bot won't surpass you.

Btw. either using a bot or sharing an account is against the EULA.

Last advise listen to Akita. The time and effort you need to day trade are in no relation to profit. On the other hand you need capital for long term trading, i would say above 5billions long term starts to pay off quite nicely.

Taua Roqa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.03.12 12:07:00 - [15]
 

very few times.

why? how can i possibly ever sell anything if i hardly every change my orders?

prices go in 'waves', very simply put, not entirely sure 'why' either, am not that into trading it's just something you see if you trade. I will obviously get undercut by the tons of dedicated people hawking their orders, and my price just stays there. Obviously prices do not fall (or increase for buy orders) in such a fashion forever, and indeed, my orders can't act as price caps either, that would be ludicrous. and so, eventually, they get filled!

also prices can rapidly change up or down, got stung by one of those changes a few weeks ago, such is trading. In these cases I pull the sell/buy order and stockpile the modules for the day they increase.

also as long as my profits are still a happy amount I will undercut, hugely so when at the top of the top of the sell price 'curve', and hope I get bought out by someone who can see that under cutting me would cost them tons of isk and help crash that particular item which they are trying to sell. Trading is a gamble lots of times and knowing when to be the first to cut and run is important :P

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.03.12 13:11:00 - [16]
 

Once every 5 minutes.

Chick'n Nugget
Posted - 2010.03.12 14:12:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Akita T
So, take your pick : 5-20% per month with minimal interaction (think maybe an hour or two per month)... or 20-80% per month with heavy interaction (think more than an hour per day). I know I'll be usually picking the former.

P.S. Of course, early on, when you're only working with millions instead of billions, it can be well over 100% profit per month. I was just talking about the point where you're trying to rotate several billions worth of investment money (the more you try to move, the lower the percentages you can expect).


This was my issue. I really started with only like 20 mil capital. I could see the benefit of "waiting out" the market fluctuations. . . however, I want to get to the point where I don't have to pay for my accounts as quickly as possible. I went from 20-100 million in less than a week (I had trained some trading skills before I started to trade. . .don't ask).

The problem is that I keep putting my profits into ships that to go have fun with and promptly get blown up.

Eventually I will be like you and nice and lazy. :) Maybe then I will move to Jita.

Riethe
Posted - 2010.03.12 14:24:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Akita T
2-3 times per week.


Me too. Sometimes less.

And we're not talking about orders that are sitting being unfilled. I can go almost a week and still be the best buyer and seller for certain goods. Yes, in Jita.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.03.12 15:09:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 12/03/2010 15:14:54
Originally by: Riethe
And we're not talking about orders that are sitting being unfilled. I can go almost a week and still be the best buyer and seller for certain goods. Yes, in Jita.

Ah, the joys of trading in the hub that sucks more than half of the galactic trade volume Very Happy

It's what I always say to my occasional "pupils" : if you want to daytrade, don't even TRY to find out what the item might be, heck, try to even ignore its function altogether. All you need to know about an item you daytrade is how the market graph looks like, and nothing else. Everything you really need to know for this type of trading is in that picture.

A lot of people end up ignoring really good trade items because they're stuck in the "what I think might sell" rut, instead of just browsing the entire possible item list with eyes exclusively on the market graphs.

Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
Posted - 2010.03.12 15:50:00 - [20]
 

Once every 60 seconds. If we need to buy or sell something bad enough, we'll stack 5 orders in 60 second increments and rotate price changes through them until we fulfil our requirements. It's brutal in Jita Twisted Evil

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-



Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:26:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Riethe
Originally by: Akita T
2-3 times per week.


Me too. Sometimes less.

And we're not talking about orders that are sitting being unfilled. I can go almost a week and still be the best buyer and seller for certain goods. Yes, in Jita.

Posting to confirm that at EBANK we're just as awesome in our monopolising activities.

RAW23
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:38:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Riethe
Originally by: Akita T
2-3 times per week.


Me too. Sometimes less.

And we're not talking about orders that are sitting being unfilled. I can go almost a week and still be the best buyer and seller for certain goods. Yes, in Jita.

Posting to confirm that at EBANK we're just as awesome in our monopolising activities.



Any chance of a serious answer to the questions posed in your thread?


 

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