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Silou Nia
Posted - 2010.03.09 17:36:00 - [1]
 

Greetings,

I've been trading for some months now and earned a few billions. Now I think it's time to take the next step in trading and buying a freighter. However, I hear nothing but people getting ganked in high-sec in their freighters. I understand that carrying a too expensive cargo is a risky business; regardless, I got some questions!

When exactly is it too risky to move goods around in your freighter? I've moved lots of stuff worth 05-0.75B in my tanked Badger II without problems.

Will people be able to see stuff in freight containers when they scan my cargohold? If no, how will they know it's profitable to destroy me?

I'm buying a Charon, how many dedicated and organized battleships will it take to bring me down in a 0.5 system?

Thanks in advance!

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.03.09 18:27:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 09/03/2010 18:32:49

I regularly haul about 1 billion in my Charon.

Container contents are scanable, unless you put stuff in a can and create a courier contract for that (a.k.a. "double wrapping"). I've never bothered.

The only systems I worry about are Niarja and Uedama.

I think it takes about 9-15 people to take out a freighter.


ChrisIsherwood
Posted - 2010.03.09 21:09:00 - [3]
 

Red Frog Freight [q.v.] also uses the limit of 1b in hi-sec IIRC. You may wish to EVE-search them or visit their chat channel.

Mal Lokrano
Gallente
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.03.10 00:27:00 - [4]
 

I personally limit my cargo to 500 mil, as it is so low that it would be difficult for a BS flee to make a profit unless literally the whole cargo dropped at once.

Aeneidae
Caldari
Quallity Assurance Business Unit
Posted - 2010.03.10 09:29:00 - [5]
 

I haul daily about 500m worth of stuff in my Freighter. It seems pretty safe at that margin, however i do not autopilot. I'd rather be at my screen for 15 minutes then have the freighter arrive at it's destination in 45. :)

TriadSte
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.10 10:08:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: TriadSte on 10/03/2010 10:10:57
I think youll find if you check the charons stats It will have quite a tank the below numbers are with zero skills in EFT

Shield : 6000
Armor : 20000
Structure 106250
Effective HP 144155 zero skills / 180194 with lvl5 skills

Thats more armor than any faction Battleship It will take a hell of a bit of punishment if you are ganked. If your in high sec i think its safe to say concorde will pop them ALOT sooner than they pop you. 106k structure is crazy.

Your totally safe to fly it in high sec.

Nedefeg
Posted - 2010.03.10 11:00:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Nedefeg on 10/03/2010 11:02:52
safe? no

10-12 battleships will get the job done

12 gank battleships will cost a grand 240 mil or so...

not autopiloting helps a LOT but even on manual , you can still get killed by a determined enough gank crew

works as intended...in fact i`d love to see a ****load more freighters go down

edit : i`m telling these numbers out of personal experience . 12 bs can sometimes fail , but i`ve been in a 15 man freighter gank and the thing melted instantly...i lost an amazing 11 m on my abbadon....

CCP needs to kill all lvl 4 mission agents in highsec allready...and make npc corps available for 6 months at most...then player corps or FW

the ammount of isk in game is ridiculous

Jose Black
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2010.03.10 11:05:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Jose Black on 10/03/2010 11:11:36
Originally by: TriadSte

Effective HP 144155 zero skills / 180194 with lvl5 skills

Thats more armor than any faction Battleship It will take a hell of a bit of punishment if you are ganked. If your in high sec i think its safe to say concorde will pop them ALOT sooner than they pop you. 106k structure is crazy.

Your totally safe to fly it in high sec.

There is no such thing like totally safe to begin with.

If you put a cheap Tempest fit together you'll come up with 8900 volley damage (1400mm and siege launchers). Doing the math that means 180000 / 8900 = 20.3 Tempests. You could still add some sentry drones to be on the safe side. That's what simple math tells you about concord saving you.

Edit: That calculation is about one-hitting the freighter, meaning that it'll be down by the time concord gets the alarm call. The lower the security rating the more time the gankers have to land a second hit, which will lower the number of needed ships (see post above).

I'm to lazy to look up on what these 20 or 21 ships will cost you (after insurance). I'm also not sure what the actual probability of cargo survival was, but if you do some research and math you could come up with the value you may carry rather "safely".

Then again some of the gankers might also fail on math or just gank you - partly - for fun which means its still not safe having less than the worthy amount of cargo.

PS: Are you actually a ganker trying to confuse people with a false feeling of safety to aid your business?

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.03.10 11:40:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: TriadSte
Your totally safe to fly it in high sec.


Shocked
That is the biggest lie I have seen here in my 2 years of EVE.

Only docked up in a station you are totally safe and that is assuming you do not (direct) trade.

TriadSte
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.10 13:35:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: TriadSte on 10/03/2010 13:36:14
In order to pull off anything like your saying with 20 or so tempests requires knowledge of the freighter pilots route and when and where exactly hes gonna go.

concorde will pop your lovely battleships in no MORE then 2 volleys.

So really your talking absolute crap. That freighter will be happy in high sec 24/7 because if any1 locks it and fires concorde spawn right on you, webbify you warp scramble you and drain ALL your cap then wtfomgown you in about 2 volleys.

Prove me wrong?

Nope im not a ganker Im a mission whoring carebear who lives in 0.7 go on take the pee?

I know for a fact that frieghter will be safe because ive seen just how fast concorde thrash your behind if u open fire on someone.

Snasty
Caldari
The Hippies
The Bohemians
Posted - 2010.03.10 13:51:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: TriadSte
I know for a fact that frieghter will be safe because ive seen just how fast concorde thrash your behind if u open fire on someone.



Oh you poor misguided soul.

Freighters do get ganked, regularly.
Take the advise from earlier posts, simply limit the value of what you have on board. Gankers dislike single stacks of a single item also (i.e full of one mineral) as the probability of getting a drop is reduced.

Dacryphile
Posted - 2010.03.10 16:27:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: TriadSte
Edited by: TriadSte on 10/03/2010 13:36:14
In order to pull off anything like your saying with 20 or so tempests requires knowledge of the freighter pilots route and when and where exactly hes gonna go.

concorde will pop your lovely battleships in no MORE then 2 volleys.

So really your talking absolute crap. That freighter will be happy in high sec 24/7 because if any1 locks it and fires concorde spawn right on you, webbify you warp scramble you and drain ALL your cap then wtfomgown you in about 2 volleys.

Prove me wrong?

Nope im not a ganker Im a mission whoring carebear who lives in 0.7 go on take the pee?

I know for a fact that frieghter will be safe because ive seen just how fast concorde thrash your behind if u open fire on someone.

Freighter ganks happen. About once a week I come through a gate and there is a massive concord spawn. Every time I travel long distances I see a high sec camps on trade routes.

Do the numbers and you will see the profitability. Losing 15 insured gank BSs will cost around 150M total. 50% of cargo is dropped from a destroyed ship. So if that 15 man gang ganks a freighter with 500M in cargo, 250M worth of loot drops they still come out ahead. 100M split 15 ways isn't really worth the hassel though. If they gank someone who has 10B worth of cargo, 5B worth of goods drop, and each ganker gets 3 hundred mill.

The AEther
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.03.10 19:29:00 - [13]
 

With 15 people in gang I'd personally do it for no less than 2 bil in cargo. This is because it takes time to assemble such a gang - you need at least 15 battleship capable people + one freighter to scoop loot sitting there for hours in a highsec system. You also need to prepare and haul your battleships and supplies in advance which takes time. Modules cost. Some battleships like Tempests have been going over 80+ mil in price in trade hubs, and at this price insurance no longer fully covers their loss. On average only half the loot drops from a suicided ship. And I would want hourly income for my gang to exceed what can be earned in missions (20-30 mil per hour) for obvious reasons.

So all in all i'd want to make at least 50 mil per member per gank which assuming half the stuff drops is 15x50x2 = 1.5 bil. That's the cut-off point and it will approach 2 bil if you have a bit more people in gang than just 15. If suicide gankers have been sitting waiting for a gank for a long long they have been known to go even for very little ISK, however, that is rarely the case of freighter gank gangs because many freighter pilots grow complacent so they usually have plenty of high-value targets.

tl;rd - 2 bil is the approx cut-off point, 3 bil and you're definitely risking it

Silou Nia
Posted - 2010.03.10 21:57:00 - [14]
 

Thank you all for the assistance.

I see there are varied opinions about this matter. Especially thanks to you The AEther for clearing this matter up.

I was hoping to move stuff around worth at least a billion, but generally 1-3B. It'd make things a lot more easy. Tau Cabalander, you mentioned a possibility to hide the loot completely from cargo scanners. If I do this, and the cargo is worth X amount of ISK, what do you guys think/know (if you can "know" this) the risk is for a gang deciding to take the chance and blow me up?

Thanks once again!

Oh and last question, I know this seem like a silly question, but if I know I'm gonna get ganked, or highly suspect so (without being too paranoid), what can I do? I have an alt at disposal.

Ibog Aslor
Posted - 2010.03.10 23:25:00 - [15]
 

if youre about to get ganked, they probably scanned ou in some earlier system. so if your cargo is worth enough to suicide over (as you see the min. worth varies from person to person) and you see youre getting scanned (someone is locking you & i beleave theres graphics and sounds too when youre being scanned) you could dock before getting to the actual gank site.

also, as youve got a alt, you can use that alt to double web your freigther, which means instant warp (not tecnically, but practically it works) if you do this at every gate, its almost impossible to scan you, so they dont know wether itd be worth to suicide you. and even if they try, you might be able to get away.

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.10 23:25:00 - [16]
 

If you know you're going to be ganked, dock up and don't go to that system. Haul your stuff later, when fewer people are on.

If you have an alt on a separate account, it's worth flying it ahead of your freighter as a scout. If you see 6-9 battleships sitting at a gate, don't go there with your freighter.

Dacryphile
Posted - 2010.03.10 23:51:00 - [17]
 

Scanners fit passive targeters so you won't know if you get scanned or not.

If you have an alt at your disposal you can do a couple of things. First thing is to jump into the system first with an alt. If you see 15 tempests sitting on the gate and you have pricey cargo, don't go through that gate. You should be doing the web trick with an alt anyway, since you have him.

You can also have the alt train up some siege and armor warfare leadership skills. Skirmish warfare wouldn't hurt a freighter pilot either. Siege warfare give your fleet more shields, armor warfare gives your fleet more armor, and skirmish warfare gives your fleet more agility. Having shield and armor skills trained up on the freighter pilot wouldn't hurt either.

That won't stop a serious gank squad, but it may make the difference for surviving a lackluster one.

The AEther
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.03.11 03:49:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: The AEther on 11/03/2010 03:50:29

Thing is that they don't sit on the gate. They sit at a safespot aligned and near a gate, ready to warp to it when freighter comes in like this (note that they are 400km off nearest gate and off grid from gate traffic). So if your scout comes into system, it won't see them. But do a 360 scan and if you pick up some enormous amount of battleships (you can also change scan distance to scan if they are positioned close to gate), then it can likely be a freighter suicide gank squad. Scanners do fit passive targeters so you are not alarmed to anyone scanning you.

A sure thing that gives away freighter suicide gank squads is large swarm of Concord on gate and freight containers scattered about. So if your scout sees that and picks up many battleships on 360 from one of the gates then it is very likely that they are there to gank freighters.

Jose Black
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2010.03.11 10:06:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: TriadSte

In order to pull off anything like your saying with 20 or so tempests requires knowledge of the freighter pilots route and when and where exactly hes gonna go.

It likely works the other way round: they sit at a gate and scan freighters that are coming their way. Besides that there is people that plan such actions long term and gain information about freighter pilots routes and cargo.

Originally by: TriadSte

concorde will pop your lovely battleships in no MORE then 2 volleys.

So really your talking absolute crap. That freighter will be happy in high sec 24/7 because if any1 locks it and fires concorde spawn right on you, webbify you warp scramble you and drain ALL your cap then wtfomgown you in about 2 volleys.

I know that its game over as soon as concord arrives at the scene. That's why my example was about one-hitting the freighter with the first volley. There is absolutely no way concord could stop you from one-hitting something.

You do realize they have a response time and it takes at least several seconds until they show up? And did I mention yet it doesn't matter how fast they arrive because they can just react, not blow you up proactively?

Originally by: TriadSte

I know for a fact that frieghter will be safe because ive seen just how fast concorde thrash your behind if u open fire on someone.

I'd rather stick to math and logic than to facts out of thin air.

Also:
Originally by: Snasty

Oh you poor misguided soul.


Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2010.03.12 11:28:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 12/03/2010 11:31:19
When I see mention of that web/insta-warp trick I wonder.

If the purpose is to make you warp faster ... OK that's fine.

But - if your buddy with the webbers has to lock you in order to web you - how is it that he's going to be able to do that before the gank gang tackler locks you and scrambles you?

If you assume that - the tackler has all his skills trained up to lock and scramble pretty much as fast as it can be done - and that they know you are coming because they've got a passive cargo scanner down the pipe somewhere - how are you going to not only beat this guy to the lock - but warp before you can be scrambled. I mean - coming off a gate - you still have to align.

Question

Or - do gank gangs not use tacklers in order not to bring concord in before the dps guys can get in their alpha?

Anonymous Player
Posted - 2010.03.12 12:17:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 12/03/2010 11:31:19
When I see mention of that web/insta-warp trick I wonder.

If the purpose is to make you warp faster ... OK that's fine.

But - if your buddy with the webbers has to lock you in order to web you - how is it that he's going to be able to do that before the gank gang tackler locks you and scrambles you?

If you assume that - the tackler has all his skills trained up to lock and scramble pretty much as fast as it can be done - and that they know you are coming because they've got a passive cargo scanner down the pipe somewhere - how are you going to not only beat this guy to the lock - but warp before you can be scrambled. I mean - coming off a gate - you still have to align.

Question

Or - do gank gangs not use tacklers in order not to bring concord in before the dps guys can get in their alpha?



Well, let's just assume you target and tackle a freighter. Your buddies have 5 seconds to be there, target, and shoot the freighter before you are dead and the point is lost. There really is no point in having a tackler for a freighter-gank. The only time it'd help at all is if the gankers were sitting on the gate, and there was a risk of the freighter pilot having a web-alt. Even if they are sitting 400km off the gate and out of site, they wouldn't be able to warp in and target before the point was lost.

Jose Black
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2010.03.12 13:37:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
I mean - coming off a gate - you still have to align.

After using a gate your ship technically has no direction - and no speed anyways. That's why you don't have to align - technically. Visually however you do.

If your visual alignment wasn't finished before you entered warp your ships used to warp at wired angels, which also was visible to observers at gates when freighters used to come out of warp not being aligned. If I remember correctly that's been fixed with a recent patch.

Anyways you still have to accelerate to enter warp.
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Or - do gank gangs not use tacklers in order not to bring concord in before the dps guys can get in their alpha?

Well if its actually about alpha then Concord presence doesn't matter cause they can't shoot you proactively. I also wonder if the already present vessels would shoot the rest of the gang at all since generally any aggressor triggers his own dedicated Concord spawn.

--
Originally by: Anonymous Player
Your buddies have 5 seconds to be there, target, and shoot the freighter before you are dead and the point is lost.

Where does the 5 seconds come from?

Anonymous Player
Posted - 2010.03.13 02:15:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jose Black
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
I mean - coming off a gate - you still have to align.

After using a gate your ship technically has no direction - and no speed anyways. That's why you don't have to align - technically. Visually however you do.

If your visual alignment wasn't finished before you entered warp your ships used to warp at wired angels, which also was visible to observers at gates when freighters used to come out of warp not being aligned. If I remember correctly that's been fixed with a recent patch.

Anyways you still have to accelerate to enter warp.
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Or - do gank gangs not use tacklers in order not to bring concord in before the dps guys can get in their alpha?

Well if its actually about alpha then Concord presence doesn't matter cause they can't shoot you proactively. I also wonder if the already present vessels would shoot the rest of the gang at all since generally any aggressor triggers his own dedicated Concord spawn.

--
Originally by: Anonymous Player
Your buddies have 5 seconds to be there, target, and shoot the freighter before you are dead and the point is lost.

Where does the 5 seconds come from?


5 seconds is about the response time of CONCORD in a 0.8 system or higher, it could be more time in a 0.5-0.7, but you aren't looking at a lot of time. The point is, unless you are using an alt to help you move, and they know this ahead of time, there really is no point in using a tackler for a freighter gank. As a freighter pilot, believe me, we are slow enough as it is that any gank squad could warp in long before we started warping off.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.03.13 11:28:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 12/03/2010 11:31:19
When I see mention of that web/insta-warp trick I wonder.

If the purpose is to make you warp faster ... OK that's fine.

But - if your buddy with the webbers has to lock you in order to web you - how is it that he's going to be able to do that before the gank gang tackler locks you and scrambles you?

If you assume that - the tackler has all his skills trained up to lock and scramble pretty much as fast as it can be done - and that they know you are coming because they've got a passive cargo scanner down the pipe somewhere - how are you going to not only beat this guy to the lock - but warp before you can be scrambled. I mean - coming off a gate - you still have to align.

Question

Or - do gank gangs not use tacklers in order not to bring concord in before the dps guys can get in their alpha?



if you are using the web trick it is likely that you are getting into warp faster than they can cargo scan you anyways.

and currently most battleships are free after insurance, so all they have to lose is whatever it cost to fit. a couple of t2 guns and damage mods is pretty cheap, it is more an issue of is it worth it to gank that freighter.

and I've never bothered with a passive targeter when scanning people, they are afk and on autopilot anyways. although I've never gone for a freighter, but without a webber it takes 30s+ to get into warp, plenty of time to scan. but hell, if they are hauling enough to be worth ganking they probably have no idea what the hell you are oing anyways, go for it!


 

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