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arbalesttom
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.03.01 11:57:00 - [31]
 

Yes, please change ECM. Its still one of the major mechanics that **** over small gang warfare.

The Tzar
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.03.01 12:48:00 - [32]
 

Don't forget that to counter the advantages that ECM has over the other forms of EWAR;

- The ship has to fit 3 augmentative modules to make it's EWAR even half-way good whether they be sig. dist. amps or rigs.

- No other form of EWAR is racially based.

- No other form of EWAR is chance based.

As others have said when your jammed you can still tank, manouver, drone, warp off.

When your neuted you can't use cap based weapons, active tank, move any faster than impulse speed, warp off, use EWAR of your own AND it works on any ship size of any race with 100% chance of effect. Most people fit cap boosters on pvp ships just in case of neuting. Why don't people fit ECCM in the same way if ECM is that much of a problem?

I would dearly love to have scripts on ECM mods for range/strength. WTB super ECM strength Rook plz Very Happy

Ambo
I've Got Nothing
Posted - 2010.03.01 12:55:00 - [33]
 

ECM sure does take the fun out of smaller fights.

It's fine in fleet warfare but in solo/small gang it's just silly.

The inclusion of a single falcon in a small gang often changes things from 'Lets have a go' to 'Theres no point'. that's why it's un-fun. Trouble is, I can't think of a decent solution for it. In small gang/solo situations, it's always either going to be to weak to bother with or overpowered. Unless of course they change it totally and I just don't see that happening.


Dr Fighter
Posted - 2010.03.01 12:58:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Dr Fighter on 01/03/2010 12:58:40
Originally by: The Tzar
about nuets: Most people fit cap boosters on pvp ships just in case of neuting. Why don't people fit ECCM in the same way if ECM is that much of a problem?Very Happy


because pushing the eccm button does not let you lock again - its a module that sits there doing nothing consuming (very little) cap and only *might* help you not get jammed but in all likly hood you will be.

Cap boosters as a counter to neuts work way way better.

sensor boosters work as a counter to damps plus they get additional affect from stacking wiht the damps (this one reason why damps are rarly used) and dont forget they give you a nice actual primary effect

tracking enhancers/comps help agianst TDs and are also helped by the stacking - not to mention TDs dont affect drones or missiles -at all- and ofc they have a very worth while primary affact.

Also the piont a guy a few posts back made about the fact that 99% of stuff in eve is about precision, calcuations and accuracy yet THE most powerful and widspread EW machanic is chance based (the reasons why this is completly stupid in the first place - take a look at ecm drones, these explain how broken the ecm concept is better than any rant of mine)

LiNuXb0y
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.03.01 14:06:00 - [35]
 

I have never had anyone give me a valid reason why all other ewar has to commit to under 30km and falcons dont, I think if people actually had to start fitting some kind of tank to their ecm ships there would be no issue. Sure its better now they aren't at 250km any more but seriously 60ish is still to far.

Battlingbean
Heaven's Gate
Posted - 2010.03.01 14:08:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Dr Fighter

Also the piont a guy a few posts back made about the fact that 99% of stuff in eve is about precision, calcuations and accuracy yet THE most powerful and widspread EW machanic is chance based (the reasons why this is completly stupid in the first place - take a look at ecm drones, these explain how broken the ecm concept is better than any rant of mine)


How is calculating jamming probabilities any different? I make sure there is a great chance a jam will occur before the fight even begins otherwise I'm dead. If done right it's not that chance based and why everyone is whining like little girls.(ECM drones might be broken however)

Amishe
Minmatar
SUNDERING
Posted - 2010.03.01 14:13:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Amishe on 01/03/2010 14:17:00
Edited by: Amishe on 01/03/2010 14:15:58
Right now I'm still angry over a fight I had 3 days ago - I'm even considering quitting EVE because of it.

Here's the story:
Me (Hurricane) and a friend (Vagabond) are sitting in a system when two guys jump in. A hurricane jumps close to a station and my friend engages him. I warp to them and engage the Hurricane in the fight and a moment later my Vagabond friend pops.

The hurricane were in 40% of his armor (armorbuffered) with me at 100% of my shieldbuffer. I know he had a friend in system, so I speeded towards the Hurricane so I could kill him as fast as I could before help would arrive.

Now, my opponent are going down hard, 10% armor while me pretty high with ~80% shieldbuffer and then his friend appear 60km from me:

A falcon.

The Hurricane had me scrambled, which leaves me at like 200m/s sitting there like a brick and had no chance to make it to the station and his Falcon friend jamming me. Okay, I endure the first 20 seconds of begin jammed.. and another 20 seconds... and another 20 seconds.. Poof goes my ship.

So, even though my opponents Hurricane were 10-20 seconds away from popping, ECM leaves me to NOTHING. I couldn't warp, I couldn't control my drones, I couldn't shoot back - there was NOTHING I could do to counter this at all.

It felt so friggin bad, where's the balance?
The pilot flying the Falcon even said he were sorry for abusing ECM and said he wanted it nerfed himself.

Now, yes, this is a whine - but sitting there for a minute not being able to do anything than slowboat really screwed the gaming experience for me. I haven't logged on EVE since this happened and I don't really feel the urge to play anymore.

Goodbye.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2010.03.01 14:45:00 - [38]
 

Okay here's newsflash. If you once jammed maybe what 6 ships for once cycle it doesn't mean you can always do it. Of course possibility increases quite a bit if opponent has chosen high dps low sensor strenght ships like *cough* amarr/minmatar which usually have pitiful sensors, in many cases for a good reason.

There's no need at all for asking boost for ECCM because it's pretty powerful already. How about first using ECCM then crying about it. :D You have always option to fly tech 3 ship with 150++ sensor strenght if you really want.

IF ecm was nerfed all caldari ecm ships would need quite major oomph. Because they're pretty much crap for anything else than jamming.




Ewar drones should be removed though, especially ecm ones. At least until they're fixed. ECM drones are really too powerful because you can just stick them in any ship and their ecm strenght cannot really be balanced in sensible way as it is now.

Then there's this thing with falcon. I think while falcon probably isn't that good ship it's boring. Everyone wants to have saving angel alt and so they will. Problem with falcon is that it can cloak and jam both so it's easy to use with alt :p If ecm itself would be so uber powerful everyone would probably have scorpion/blackbird alts or something :P

Kapse Locke
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.03.01 15:05:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Amishe
Goodbye.

Considering how hard your beef curtains were flapping in the wind there, I say good riddance.

Pan Zhu'Liang
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.03.01 15:27:00 - [40]
 

if ECM does get changed I think the only direction to take it is more reliable but less crippling. perhaps make sensor strength reduce jam time instead of reducing jam chance. that would make ECCM more appealing as well. Every time a player got jammed he'd say, "good thing i have that eccm so i can lock sometime soon," as opposed to never really knowing if your eccm did anything at all.

Th0rG0d
Terminal Pharmaceuticals Inc.
Posted - 2010.03.01 15:43:00 - [41]
 

I agree things need to change. ECCM needs to provide a reliable counter. ECM still needs to remain chance based, but it should only break lock, allowing the target to begin to re-target immediately. Or possibly re-target with a reduced sensor strength. Then if the player has ECCM fitted, it counters the ECM from reducing the sensor strength. Keep the ECM modules duration ~15-20 seconds so that it gives the target a chance to re-target and unleash a new volley.

ECM would still be disruptive, powerful, and irritating as it should be. But not ever permanent, and would still give pilots a feeling that they might still be able to do something productive.

Maybe even introduce "ship sized" modules. Frigate ECM can only fit on the Griffin and Kitsune, and they can jam frigates and above(with decrease in power). Cruiser ECM can only fit on BB and Falcon/Rook and can jam cruisers and above(again decreasing power against larger boats). The Scorp gets the big boys and can only jam other BS and bigger(with no decrease in power except for relative sensor strength changes).

..... Don't know if any of these ideas work...

Arrador
Posted - 2010.03.01 15:44:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Gambit Stryder
2006 called, they want their whine thread back.


qft

Haxfar Portlaind
Posted - 2010.03.01 15:49:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang
if ECM does get changed I think the only direction to take it is more reliable but less crippling. perhaps make sensor strength reduce jam time instead of reducing jam chance. that would make ECCM more appealing as well. Every time a player got jammed he'd say, "good thing i have that eccm so i can lock sometime soon," as opposed to never really knowing if your eccm did anything at all.


To me that sounds somewhat appealing... Yeah i fly rook and BB. What sometimes gets on my nerves as a ecm user is those damned missed jams. If all fails, and you just fire them after each other you got some 30 sec to next change. Reducing the length on the jam time might put even more pressure on the ecm pilot. Mad

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.03.01 15:50:00 - [44]
 


Haxfar Portlaind
Posted - 2010.03.01 16:47:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
This is all very familiar


hmm... seems so. I think the problem is too many is either completely against it or wont have it removed... It's that damned compromise Mad

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.03.01 16:58:00 - [46]
 

Well I'm done arguing about ECM. It barely has a presence in the PvP I see from day to day. A few scorps in big fleets, and that's it.

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.03.01 17:01:00 - [47]
 

So just a tally of what ccp needs to nerf this month...

All angel ships
all ECM boats
lasers, auto cannons
hmm...

Let's just remove all ships except 1 that way everything will be fair and balanced
no reason to even learn how to fit your ship or learn to counter anything or even fly with a gang
we can all mine in jita

Dr Fighter
Posted - 2010.03.01 17:05:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang
if ECM does get changed I think the only direction to take it is more reliable but less crippling. perhaps make sensor strength reduce jam time instead of reducing jam chance. that would make ECCM more appealing as well. Every time a player got jammed he'd say, "good thing i have that eccm so i can lock sometime soon," as opposed to never really knowing if your eccm did anything at all.


holy crap this is actually a really nice idea.

More strength means a cycle reduction of upto say 50% in the cycle time, i dodnt know how the maths would work.

Of course im still majorly in favour of a different effect entirely

bff Jill
Posted - 2010.03.01 17:09:00 - [49]
 

ECM is the only thing in the entire game that is a counter to everything.

Zilberfrid
Posted - 2010.03.01 17:18:00 - [50]
 

How about ECCM recalculating the lock chance every cycle (thus an active mod)?

bff Jill
Posted - 2010.03.01 17:25:00 - [51]
 

how about making eccm make you immune to ecm.

A single ship forcing the entire enemy fleet to waste one module slot is powerful enough.

nerf falcons.

Kirzath
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.03.01 17:31:00 - [52]
 

I would quite enjoy being able to fly any T2 frigate without the fear of being solo'd by a Griffin with ECM. Frigates don't have the midslots to spare for ECCM and the lowslot alternative isn't hardly as effective.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.03.01 17:38:00 - [53]
 

Just delete it from the game.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.03.01 17:40:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: bff Jill
ECM is the only thing in the entire game that is a counter to everything.

NUH UH IT CANT COUNTER SMARTBOMBS SO ITS BALANCED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.03.01 17:54:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Kirzath
I would quite enjoy being able to fly any T2 frigate without the fear of being solo'd by a Griffin with ECM. Frigates don't have the midslots to spare for ECCM and the lowslot alternative isn't hardly as effective.

lol
Griffin the frig killer just lol.

Realy this is what why ecm should be nerfed?????

Why not nerf you ships and modules?

Just check killboards there are way less ecm ships than turret ships ,lets nerf turrets.


Kirzath
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.03.01 18:07:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
lol
Griffin the frig killer just lol.

Realy this is what why ecm should be nerfed?????


You really think being able to comfortably engage and kill any other frigate hull with a T1 frigate that costs 3M after modules without having to worry about them shooting back is balanced in any way?

Even a Helios with ECM can be an effective anti-frigate platform, only because of the ECM. You really have no idea how frustrating it can be.

bff Jill
Posted - 2010.03.01 18:20:00 - [57]
 

How about just making it so you don't lose lock when you are jammed.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.03.01 18:28:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Th0rG0d
I agree things need to change. ECCM needs to provide a reliable counter. ECM still needs to remain chance based, but it should only break lock, allowing the target to begin to re-target immediately. Or possibly re-target with a reduced sensor strength. Then if the player has ECCM fitted, it counters the ECM from reducing the sensor strength. Keep the ECM modules duration ~15-20 seconds so that it gives the target a chance to re-target and unleash a new volley.

ECM would still be disruptive, powerful, and irritating as it should be. But not ever permanent, and would still give pilots a feeling that they might still be able to do something productive.


I really think this is an awesome idea. (Even though I think ECM isn't so totally overpowered these days.)

ECM currently knocks a ship out for 20 seconds + relock time, at a percent chance to have an effect.

Having it instantly break locks + slow relock time would be far more interesting, and at least make you feel like you're doing something while you're not shooting. Interestingly ECM would be more useful VS larger ships then...

I suppose the argument would be over whether it's still chance based or whether it fires every time, but has slow recharge. I could see racial ECMs penalizing the relock more for their intended race.

Anyway, great idea. It actually sounds fun, which is what's missing right now.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.03.01 18:36:00 - [59]
 

How stupid does this idea sound:

Make ECM decrease the max. # of locked targets of a ship.

Dr Fighter
Posted - 2010.03.01 18:41:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
How stupid does this idea sound:

Make ECM decrease the max. # of locked targets of a ship.


I thought of this a few times now.

Could be a side effect combined with somthing else, generally 1 target is all thats needed for all but logistics/other ew ships.

So, on its own its a bit weak imo


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