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DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.03.01 00:24:00 - [1]
 

Trust me... as someone who both uses it, and has been screwed by it. Its time to change it completely.

No other module in the game other than a doomsday can completely take a ship out of the fight. Yes I am saying that an ecm boat is as effective as a doomsday.

Again as someone who uses it, I can easily say that ecm has saved my ass numerous times because I got into a situation I shouldnt have and took up to 5 ships out of the fight with 1 ship. This allowed me to leave or win.

How to balance...

No ship should be able to completely lock down up to 8 ships. It is overpowered and either needs to be balanced by reducing its strength or...... Give a major and I mean MAJOR boost to ECCM. Or third option. Give optimal about 20km, and then add scripts for range or strength. Scripts have ****ed up everything else in this game why not ecm too?

am I alone in this thought or is it truely time to rectify overpowered modules and ships.

WildCat

Atreus Tac
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.03.01 00:28:00 - [2]
 

i see white

Commander Godsmack
Posted - 2010.03.01 00:41:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: DHB WildCat
No ship should be able to completely lock down up to 8 ships.


ECM disrupts lock on target ship(on a chance bases) So you cant "lock down " 8 other ships; can only disrupt 1 at a time, and I believe their success diminishes with each larger class ship you engage (frigate>BC>BS)
As for even 5 ships that would mean 5 diff ECM modules at the same time - only like 1 ship that can pull that off (whatit called- something caldari criuser t2)

Theac Osiris
Gallente
Red Federation
Posted - 2010.03.01 00:47:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Theac Osiris on 01/03/2010 00:48:01
Would you like your whine broiled or grilled?

#1) ECM does not "completely take a ship out of the fight". FoF missiles and drones still work, the ship can still maneuver, and most importantly, it's still alive.

#2) No ship can completely lock down up to 8 ships. The only ship that has that many bonused ECM slots is the Scorpion, and you'd have to be crazy not to fit at least an MWD. Furthermore, it's chance based, so unless you're facing a swarm of frigates (against whom the effect of ECM is diminished since you're wasting your mods on weak, cheap ships), you are not going to be able to completely lock down every target.

#3) Most ECM ships are paper-thin. If a DPS ship gets on top of them, they're generally toast.

#4) ECM ships, surprisingly enough, can be ECMed, or sensor damped so hard they have to venture dangerously close into the enemy. If you're really having trouble with them, a flight of ECM drones can easily break their cycle and give you a chance to blow them to shreds.

#5) ECM ships are to be pre-emptively considered "primary"

#6) ECM will generally cause panic and disarray in an uncoordinated, unprepared fleet, but most good FCs will be able to neutralize it as a threat.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.03.01 00:58:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Commander Godsmack
Originally by: DHB WildCat
No ship should be able to completely lock down up to 8 ships.


ECM disrupts lock on target ship(on a chance bases) So you cant "lock down " 8 other ships; can only disrupt 1 at a time, and I believe their success diminishes with each larger class ship you engage (frigate>BC>BS)
As for even 5 ships that would mean 5 diff ECM modules at the same time - only like 1 ship that can pull that off (whatit called- something caldari criuser t2)


It appears from your comments Commander you don't have sufficient experience. What DHB probably is saying is that a Scorpion with all mids crammed with jammers could conceivably take 8 enemy ships out of a fight. Obviously it would involve ideal circumstances. But still even without ideal circumstances it is not unusual for a Scorp to remove 4 enemy ships from a fight. The ability to lock a target is so central to performing almost any combat action in the game. A tracking disrupted enemy can still use drones, still rep a buddy, possibly swap a script in a tacking computer to compensate. A jammed is ship is worth ****all and either has to sit on thumb for the cycle and hope the next cycle is missed or warp out if not tackled. With 30% bonuses that next cycle is likely to be successful as well.

I would favor a buff to eccm, and the introduction of a new skill called sensor integrity or something, that would provide more effective counters to what is now 30% per level ecm boats. Calling for a nerf on ecm will inevitably fail. CCP cannot seem to nerf ecm boats like they nerf other boats/mods (nos, damps, webs), and oh the whines that will come in this thread. And so far there has been no hint that the devs are considering any change to the mechanics of ecm. So the only thing that might work to remove the joy of thumb in ass syndrome in eve battles is a buff to eccm, and a new skill to train to limit the effectiveness of opposing ecm.

Emperor Ryan
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Mildly Intoxicated
Posted - 2010.03.01 01:52:00 - [6]
 

I was going to read it but then i saw the color was all wrong.

Gambit Stryder
Privateers
Posted - 2010.03.01 02:00:00 - [7]
 

2006 called, they want their whine thread back.

Poses
Posted - 2010.03.01 02:05:00 - [8]
 

I'd be happy to see ECCM modules removed and have it exchanged for a scrip for a sebo (and maybe a light boost to its effect as well)

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.03.01 02:13:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: chatgris on 01/03/2010 02:15:35
Originally by: Theac Osiris
#2) No ship can completely lock down up to 8 ships. The only ship that has that many bonused ECM slots is the Scorpion, and you'd have to be crazy not to fit at least an MWD. Furthermore, it's chance based, so unless you're facing a swarm of frigates (against whom the effect of ECM is diminished since you're wasting your mods on weak, cheap ships), you are not going to be able to completely lock down every target.



I've done it in a scorp, 8 drakes at once (and caldari have the highest sensor strength). Usually I'm too busy jamming stuff to record it, but I did take a screenie to make into a signature once near the end of a fight where there were only a few drakes left. This is post ECM-range nerf.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Got 5/6 there.

I'm in the "ECM must die" camp myself, I fly it cause it's incredibly overpowered compared to other EWAR. But my main objection isn't its power, but it's anti-fun. I often try "lets charge into an enemy fleet and get a kill or two before I die" and ECM is the bane of that :(


Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2010.03.01 02:57:00 - [10]
 

A proud falcon alt user such as yourself is crying about ECM?

Rolling Eyes

Ashira Twilight
Posted - 2010.03.01 03:39:00 - [11]
 

Mostly what ****es me off are the damn ECM drones. "Oh look, he put 2 small ECM drones on me, what are the odds that....omfg permajammed"


Kapse Locke
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.03.01 04:14:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Atreus Tac
i see whine

Fix'd.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.03.01 04:16:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Ashira Twilight
Mostly what ****es me off are the damn ECM drones. "Oh look, he put 2 small ECM drones on me, what are the odds that....omfg permajammed"




Rolling Eyes what were you in a tech I frigate? Small ecm drones are not very effective. Medium ecm drones are somewhat good. Regardless, they are nothing compared to an ecm boat's 30% bonuses on a racial jammer.

Forgot about the sensor booster eccm script idea. Yeah that would be good to add to the list of indirect ecm nerf suggestions, because we will not get a direct ecm nerf. And, even if we did, there would be a simultaneous buff (happened twice alreadyMad). Of course we're still waiting CCP for the well after the fact now compensatory buffs to web, damp, and nos boats. . . in vain most likely.

But watch we will probably get an ecm drone nerf, which is not needed, and not get any direct or indirect ecm nerf ugh

Psychotic Maniac
Caldari
Head Shrinkers
Posted - 2010.03.01 09:14:00 - [14]
 

with my luck it will be nerfed right after I train up some skills.
ccp nerfed everything else I trained.

Havegooda
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.03.01 09:24:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: DHB WildCat
No ship should be able to completely lock down up to 8 ships.


Best we've been able to do was 6 at once. The squids need to learn to not only use Drakes v0v

http://www.chatgris.com/eve/ecmsig.png

Torpir Lee
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2010.03.01 09:40:00 - [16]
 

DHB is one of the primary people to get hurt by ECM, considering his playstyle, so I'm not surprised at his frustration.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.01 09:52:00 - [17]
 

You can tweak the numbers all you want but ECM will still be ruining your game. It is the effect of ECM that has to change first and foremost.

A 20 second long thumb-twiddling effect has no place in a game, might in a cinematic, but not a game.
If it is to stay then at least add some lame elevator music or something Smile

Regardless of what we eventually end up with there is one thing that has to be included in considerations:
ECM becomes downright game breaking as gang/hull size decreases.
A single, even unbonused, module able to with neutralise any destroyer/frigate with 30-40% probability? A single ECM boat able to neutralise 3-5 sub-capital ships with almost certainty?
* Counter modules (ECCM) needs to increase in power as hull-size (ie. available slots)/base sensor STR goes down, or
* ECM needs to have power diminished as target size go down.
* ECCM needs to have a secondary beneficial effect as it is currently the only 'counter module' that has no impact whatsoever if ECM is not on field.
* An ECCM rig needs to be introduced. All other eWar (sans tackle)/counters has rigs to augment capability except for ECCM .. huge oversight.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.03.01 10:08:00 - [18]
 

New month new ecm whine.

ECM is fine , it has been nerfed too many times already.

If you dont like it ,who cares you dont have to like everything in eve. I for 1 like ecm and the other ewars , they are well balanced atm. Taking out these would mean pvp would be boringly simple.

Dr Fighter
Posted - 2010.03.01 10:12:00 - [19]
 

ECM has been overpowered as a single EW type since its creation. even with the low strengths of sensors back in the day and the stacking sensor pionts method of jamming the effect was too powerful, 20 seconds out of a fight and likly 20 seconds consecutively is too much for loo long.

ECM being chance based was a hugly poor idea however since chance has been applied to all EW with falloff ranges this is unlikly to change.


ECM needs a radical change, it simply isnt fun at all effecting so many systems in the all or nothing way it does currently. A player in a sub BS might as well warp off/back once it has a falcon's attention.

I dont play eve to make isk to pvp so my XXX isk ship is completly uless is every way when a fight with a falcon kicks off, and thats how many see it. If just one ecm ship shows up in any 10v10 sized battle it will RUIN the game for the 10 people who just had their gang reduced to 5 and alot less fun for the 10 who are whooping the 5 jammed guys. A falcon aside means if they fight it will suck and foten simply dont fight at all (thats IF they see each others cloaky falcon)

Its like putting baby mice into a bag and stomping on them its that easy, only they are fully grown tigers but you are just one man still. Its that unballenced.

The falcon nerfed helped HUGLY with the odds that any given fight will have a falcon in - this was a GOOD thing and NO ONE will say anything against that.

SR65
Amarr
Core Impulse
Posted - 2010.03.01 10:25:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: SR65 on 01/03/2010 10:26:24
I like how everyone says ECM is fine. How is a module that completely renders your offensive weapons useless with the click of a button "fine"? ECCM is pathetically weak compared to it to the point that I don't even fit it because of more useful things to use and hope some idiot with a Falcon alt doesn't show up.

Then you get the people that say F.o.F. and Drones still work. lol I don't even need to explain why the part about F.o.F. is funny, but with drones, I kinda prefer my 700 or so DPS with my guns to my 200 or so DPS of drones. Plus the target just kills the drones and if you pull the drones in, there's no reassigning them when you're perma-jammed. Rolling Eyes

I'm basically speaking from the specific scenario where you catch someone or he catches you and the fight is on. You appear to be doing well until a Falcon uncloaks 60km away and perma-jams you while you slowly die. Yeah, that's totally balanced.

Anyway, useless argument that comes up once a month, but I gotta put my 2 pennies in.

Battlingbean
Heaven's Gate
Posted - 2010.03.01 10:32:00 - [21]
 

ECM isn't OP.
I fly ECM ships and like others have pointed out it's not even close to locking anything down. The enemy can still move around, use drones,use smartbombs, tank is undamaged, fof and there are plenty of counters such as fitting ECCM, flying in a fleet of the same race and of course jam them first. Usually only one member of a fleet needs ECCM to force the jammer off grid.

If you want to lock down a ship try the curse, which by the way will screw over ECM ships so bad its not even funny. Jamming other recons is difficult and with the curse when your jam fails you will be neutralized, dead in the water, unable to jam and ultimately popped.

The only thing worth training Caldari have is ECM, please don't nerf it again.Sad

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.03.01 10:36:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: SR65
Edited by: SR65 on 01/03/2010 10:26:24
I like how everyone says ECM is fine. How is a module that completely renders your offensive weapons useless with the click of a button "fine"? ECCM is pathetically weak compared to it to the point that I don't even fit it because of more useful things to use and hope some idiot with a Falcon alt doesn't show up.

Then you get the people that say F.o.F. and Drones still work. lol I don't even need to explain why the part about F.o.F. is funny, but with drones, I kinda prefer my 700 or so DPS with my guns to my 200 or so DPS of drones. Plus the target just kills the drones and if you pull the drones in, there's no reassigning them when you're perma-jammed. Rolling Eyes

I'm basically speaking from the specific scenario where you catch someone or he catches you and the fight is on. You appear to be doing well until a Falcon uncloaks 60km away and perma-jams you while you slowly die. Yeah, that's totally balanced.

Anyway, useless argument that comes up once a month, but I gotta put my 2 pennies in.


Yeah ppl like this wants ewar nerfed , they can think only around dps,how boring that is.... these whines and nerfs following takes out the fun from pvp.

About your specific scenario: oh you brought anything else than dps ships ,didnt you? Also no ships in your gang to counter possible ewar, also that 1 falcon can jamm out 4 enemies if he is lucky ,so the rest could just kill it.

SR65
Amarr
Core Impulse
Posted - 2010.03.01 10:40:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Battlingbean
ECM isn't OP.
I fly ECM ships and like others have pointed out it's not even close to locking anything down. The enemy can still move around, use drones,use smartbombs, tank is undamaged, fof and there are plenty of counters such as fitting ECCM, flying in a fleet of the same race and of course jam them first. Usually only one member of a fleet needs ECCM to force the jammer off grid.

If you want to lock down a ship try the curse, which by the way will screw over ECM ships so bad its not even funny. Jamming other recons is difficult and with the curse when your jam fails you will be neutralized, dead in the water, unable to jam and ultimately popped.

The only thing worth training Caldari have is ECM, please don't nerf it again.Sad

If the Curse worked like the Falcon, it would drain all your cap instantly at the click of a button. Obviously on a chance basis though. Anyway, for me, the ECM problem is with a small fleet with Falcon vs another small fleet or when its 1v1 which turns into 2v1 with Falcon not on your side. Sure, my tank keeps on running but with enough time and that perma jammer, I'll eventually die to just about anything. Plus, I've personally witnessed many situations where overheated ECCM didn't let the pilot get a single lock for the duration of the fight.

SR65
Amarr
Core Impulse
Posted - 2010.03.01 10:47:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Yeah ppl like this wants ewar nerfed , they can think only around dps,how boring that is.... these whines and nerfs following takes out the fun from pvp.

About your specific scenario: oh you brought anything else than dps ships ,didnt you? Also no ships in your gang to counter possible ewar, also that 1 falcon can jamm out 4 enemies if he is lucky ,so the rest could just kill it.

Not really sure what you're on about, but I never stated I had a fleet on standby waiting to help kill a Falcon for me. Some people do still try to do some solo work when they can.

Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2010.03.01 10:47:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: SR65
Edited by: SR65 on 01/03/2010 10:26:24

I'm basically speaking from the specific scenario where you catch someone or he catches you and the fight is on. You appear to be doing well until a Falcon uncloaks 60km away and perma-jams you while you slowly die. Yeah, that's totally balanced.



Where was your cloaked support? Numerical superiority regardless of ECM was the winning factor there.

That being said ECCM could use a boost. My suggestion is for them to use scripts that one: allow a large reduction of the chances of being jammed, or two: reduce the time that you are jammed.

SR65
Amarr
Core Impulse
Posted - 2010.03.01 10:55:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Javelin6
That being said ECCM could use a boost. My suggestion is for them to use scripts that one: allow a large reduction of the chances of being jammed, or two: reduce the time that you are jammed.

I didn't say it was against a fleet. Just one guy with a Falcon alt. I thought this was a common thing?

Battlingbean
Heaven's Gate
Posted - 2010.03.01 10:59:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: SR65

If the Curse worked like the Falcon, it would drain all your cap instantly at the click of a button.


It's so fast that's usually what happens.

Originally by: SR65

Anyway, for me, the ECM problem is with a small fleet with Falcon vs another small fleet or when its 1v1 which turns into 2v1 with Falcon not on your side. Sure, my tank keeps on running but with enough time and that perma jammer, I'll eventually die to just about anything.


It's 2v1 you should loose. If a friend showed up and RR is that OP too? At least this way you might dock or flee somehow instead of more dps on you.

Originally by: SR65

Plus, I've personally witnessed many situations where overheated ECCM didn't let the pilot get a single lock for the duration of the fight.


I guess you were just unlucky. I can tell when opponents have ECCM because it works. However maybe ECCM could be better I don't know.

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.01 11:24:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Gambit Stryder
2006 called, they want their whine thread back.


This.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.01 11:25:00 - [29]
 

Imo ECM needs to be completely changed. A game mechanic that results in being forced to watch a timer count down and hoping the dice rolls favourable for you next time is a bad game mechanic imo.

Fortune Foru
Posted - 2010.03.01 11:44:00 - [30]
 

/signed

Actually I have a good reason to agree here. The reason why I enjoy EVE is unlike other games, probability is not a big part of the game. Rolling dice and hoping for the best is not something you want to tell your fleet. This is not the other game.

When your UI requires you to have 2 or 3 decimal places and you need EFT to study setups, precision and expectation of ship performance is critical. Having a module that may or may not work does not fit with this paradigm.

I think Jamming in game should be removed from PVP and PVE.

Mind you I don't agree that Jamming takes you out of the fight as you can likely run or move out of their optimal. But that is still not good enough IMHO.

What to do with the Falcon? I donno... give it a shield transfer bonus and make it a logistic recon might be fun. That way it will still be primary but worth flying. CoolTwisted Evil


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