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Zabby Gabby
Posted - 2010.02.28 10:28:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Zabby Gabby on 28/02/2010 10:28:13
Ok... so everyone knows there is pretty much no point mining in low sec, thanks to the reward/danger ratio being really bad compared to highsec.

I would have thought that if all low-sec stations are given better refining percentages than any high-sec station, people would be more willing to mine and refine there. (Maby even the lower the sec status, the better)

E.g. In 0.4 Sec, stations would give you 20% more mins for your ore. And then up to 50% more mins in 0.1 sec.


Two things would happen because of this:


1) There would be many more miners in low-sec to cash in on the profits, as the reward/danger ratio is not nearly as bad.

2) There would be many haulers full of ore coming to low-sec to refine their minerals.


I would have though this would populate low-sec much more with miners/haulers.

What does everyone think?



Lord Dralos
Posted - 2010.02.28 13:18:00 - [2]
 

i already get 100% mining refinement in high sec so i still see no need to go to low sec for anything.
let alone take a hulk and orca to mine in space where miners and industrialist know that they are the primary targets for all the incentives to go mine in low sec would have to be massive for me to want to risk whats in essence about 500 to 1 billion isks worth depending on whats in cargo bays, rigs etc.
i find its much safer to travel and mine in worm holes where i dont appear in local and i just got to keep an eye on the directional for probes and incomming warships.

shady trader
Posted - 2010.02.28 14:05:00 - [3]
 

The only way this would work is if you get more then the 100% that is available in hi-sec.
Then there is no way to make sure the ore is mined in low sec, if its profitable people would haul the ore in to be refined.

The near by 0.0 people would just jump there compressed ore right next to the station and dock, refine, undock and jump out of the system again.

The only way this would work is if CCP replaced all the low sec ores with something similar to the mission ores, the difference being that they can be refined.

Given that you want the low the sec the better the refine each sec level would have to have its own versions.

Plus currently its more profitable to mine the very hi-sec ores 0.9 to 0.8 then it is the mid sec. You have to go to good 0.0 to beat the isk per hour once you take ship losses into account.

Cygwin Gaad
Caldari
The Element Syndicate
Blazing Angels Alliance
Posted - 2010.02.28 14:16:00 - [4]
 

nope. that wouldnt even tempt even the carebearyest miners in eve.
miners want security, that doesnt exist in lowsec. its almost fundamentally unfixable. unless you can anchor some sort of defense structure in a belt there will be no security and therefore no incentive great enough to risk several million isk worth of unprotected mining vessel to the coldness of lowsec space.

Slade Hoo
Amarr
Retired Gunslingers
Posted - 2010.02.28 14:18:00 - [5]
 

ok. Then what about mining in highsec/nullsec and refining in 0.1 then? Isn't much of logistics for alot of people.

Lord Dralos
Posted - 2010.02.28 14:26:00 - [6]
 

i totally agree with you there the fact that most miners and industrialists ships cost so much to be risked in low sec is insane unless you can get a security force to come with you which more often than not you cant as most pew pewers get very bored very quickly and want to shoot stuff so they go off not to mention that if you try to warp out the likes of an orca takes years to engange th enegines and can be easily knocked off alignment by a fast frig that ends up locking you up for his bigger friends to come in and finish you the risk to profit factors go something like this in low sec.
risk -10 profit +2 do a simple division and you get -8.
so basicly untill we miners/industrialists get some stuff going our way for a change low sec can stay dead of players as far as we are concerned.

Lord Dralos
Posted - 2010.03.01 19:17:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Lord Dralos on 01/03/2010 19:19:24
a friend of mines the other day said that the easiest way to attract mining and hauling ships into low sec is to re-classify them as T1 ships that way they can be insured.

which funny enough if i could insure my ship for 100% return id be more inclined to go to low sec to mine but as likes of hulks are T2 and insurance on T2 sucks no way im gonna waste time and assets going to low sec.

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2010.03.01 19:45:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: XXSketchxx on 01/03/2010 19:45:52
Originally by: Lord Dralos
Edited by: Lord Dralos on 01/03/2010 19:19:24
a friend of mines the other day said that the easiest way to attract mining and hauling ships into low sec is to re-classify them as T1 ships that way they can be insured.

which funny enough if i could insure my ship for 100% return id be more inclined to go to low sec to mine but as likes of hulks are T2 and insurance on T2 sucks no way im gonna waste time and assets going to low sec.



This is just wrong. The reason miners don't go to low sec is because there is no reason to.

Few things need to change:

1. fix mission loot
2. fix drone compounds (change that crap to tags, like the sleepers)
3. INCREASED YIELD FROM ASTEROIDS IN LOWER SECURITY

On that last one. I'm not just talking dense veldspar giving 10% more. I'm talking "super uber veldspar" giving 50% more and maybe even 100% more in null sec. My numbers are probably off, but what I'm getting at is mining veldspar in 0.0 should be more worthwhile than mining veldspar in high sec.

If its only going to be valuable to mine ABCM ores in 0.0, why bother having the other ore there?

And FYI covetor doesn't mine that much less than a hulk, and is fully insurable. The simple matter of fact is that there is no reason to mine in low sec.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.03.01 19:48:00 - [9]
 

So if I start with one shuttle and a few BPO's at a low-sec station I could end up building 1000 dreads? Cool.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.03.01 20:08:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Sig Sour on 01/03/2010 20:08:18
Originally by: Zabby
GabbyOk... so everyone knows there is pretty much no point mining in low sec, thanks to the reward/danger ratio being really bad compared to highsec.


You are taking the wrong approach. It is worth mining in low sec, along with your balls you need to drop probes and find a grav site. You will find 0.0 ores in .4 sec, and if you figure out what you are doing you are SAFER in low sec than in high sec.

Your proposal would only be good for JF pilots.

Tragu
Posted - 2010.03.01 20:10:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
So if I start with one shuttle and a few BPO's at a low-sec station I could end up building 1000 dreads? Cool.


Actually, if I'm reading the idea correctly (not supporting it yet but) then if you start with a shuttle and some BPOs in low sec, you end up with... A shuttle and BPOs in low sec. You need to mine the ore, remember?

Something about lowsec vs. null sec profitability for miners here.

Pseudo Sasaya
Posted - 2010.03.01 20:33:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tragu

Actually, if I'm reading the idea correctly (not supporting it yet but) then if you start with a shuttle and some BPOs in low sec, you end up with... A shuttle and BPOs in low sec. You need to mine the ore, remember?


I am guessing the person is assuming that reprocessing would get the same bonuses as refining, thus resulting in more minerals recovered then put into the shuttle.

HarveyBirdman Esquire
Posted - 2010.03.01 21:09:00 - [13]
 

Or, instead, nerf the yield on hisec ores. You can't fix a problem of oversupply by supplying more.

Case comma I'll take it!

-Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law

Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.03.01 21:18:00 - [14]
 

Yeah, really to make standard low sec belts more attractive, you need to make high sec less attractive. Which CCP recently buffed high sec belts so... wtf, this is a pointless battle. Separate servers for carebears is the ultimate solution.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.01 22:42:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
Yeah, really to make standard low sec belts more attractive, you need to make high sec less attractive. Which CCP recently buffed high sec belts so... wtf, this is a pointless battle. Separate servers for carebears is the ultimate solution.


Wrong Sour.

CCP increased Veldspar availability in high sec, no other ore.

That keep up all the other minerals price thank to the Insurance Exchange Rate (i.e. the isk you get when you self destruct a ship you have just build and insured).

Having abundant veldspar mean abundant tritanium, pushing down the price of tritanium. As thw insurance payout is constant and give a floor to the mineral basket used to build ships having a lot of tritanium mean that to get the insurance isk you need to buy more middle and high end, so the price of those increase.

If CCP hadn't increased the availability of veldspar in preparation for the 0.0 upgrades we would be suffering for even worse prices for all the other minerals and tritanium would be well above 3 isk/unit.

Jerid Verges
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.03.01 23:00:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Jerid Verges on 01/03/2010 23:00:33
This isn't about risk v reward it's about risk v reward.

The only way to make Lowsec attractive is to make it somehow, be able to be safer then it is. (But then pirates would whine and complain like no tomorrow).

Though, boosting lowsec minerals and nerfing drone regions would definitely need to happen as well. But doing that simply will not get people mining in lowsec.

It doesn't matter how much reward you offer, if it is too risky only those with the biggest of balls will take the risk. That is why lowsec is so unpopulated. Too much risk.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.03.01 23:27:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Wrong Sour.

CCP increased Veldspar availability in high sec, no other ore.


You say I am wrong and then prove me right. What gives?

If you said I was wrong and then said "They cut the respawn time for high sec belts in half." I would say, gee Mul, I am a fool, thanks for pointing that out. But that is not the case. CCP added more minerals to high sec, therefore giving less reason to go to low sec. Which I may remind you is the main topic here, not the economy.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.03.01 23:34:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Jerid Verges
It doesn't matter how much reward you offer, if it is too risky only those with the biggest of balls will take the risk. That is why lowsec is so unpopulated. Too much risk.


I am guessing that you are one of the people who, even when the Falcon (ticket out of losing any barges in low sec) was in its hay day, STILL had an impending fear of low sec?

Before you go making suggestions to fix low sec, I want to see some stats, because I think most of you are theory crafting here as you don't actually use low sec enough to know any dangers.

De Guantanamo
Posted - 2010.03.01 23:54:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
I think most of you are theory crafting here as you don't actually use low sec enough to know any dangers.


don't think there is a truer statement about high sec bears

Dunn Idaho
Caldari
Core Impulse
Posted - 2010.03.02 11:53:00 - [20]
 

Just need to move some of the roids around, so there a uniqe roid in low sec.

Wich means, either ppl mine in low sec, or we dont get a certan ore.

Wich means the reward will be there, to cover the risk.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.03.02 12:40:00 - [21]
 

That is probably the best mining idea I've seen and yet it's so simple. Make it so only certain minerals can be had in different security zones. High sec get's the basic stuff, low sec get's intermediate and null get's high end. Make it so you only get low end from reprocessing. Thus if you want let's say isogen, you must go to low sec. There is no other way to get it as it can't be made from reprocessing anything or mining in high/null sec. Wonder if CCP would actually implement this. It would have serious repercussions on the market short term but would probably balance out in the end.

Dantes Revenge
Caldari
Posted - 2010.03.02 15:26:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 02/03/2010 15:27:30

I've ninja mined in lowsec with a Retriever. Hey, Keta Min, it was me pinching all the Jaspet from your HQ system (Bridi) while you and you corp were in Ami, the next system camping the gate to highsecLaughing That was before transport ships and WTZ too.

What I can say is that, for the most part, the rewards are not nearly high enough to make it viable. Jaspet and Hemorphite are not exactly rich in Zydrine and you won't get anything better than Zydrine from lowsec. My income was probably somewhere near 0.001% better than I was making in highsec. Coupled with the increased risk of losing a ship, luckily I never did, it makes the risk far outweigh the rewards. Just losing one fitted Retriever back then at 15 million a time would have wiped out my 0.001% profits for a month. Take a T2 barge, even a Mackinaw or even a Skiff and you're probably looking at a whole year to recover the cost of losing it.

To make lowsec mining viable, it has got to be far more profitable than it currently is. The main problem is that the ore was originally spread to take into account that nullsec was more dangerous than lowsec. Unfortunately, that isn't the case any more but the rewards have never been altered. The only way to make it balanced to the way the danger is now would be to either vastly increase the amount of Zydrine each of those two ores produce or add a small amount of Megacyte into the cooking pot.

Currently, Jaspet and Hemorphite have a 500 unit batch refine amount, Jaspet produces only 8 units of Zydrine and Hemorphite produces only 28. This needs to be increased by a factor of at least 10 so that Jaspet has 80 Zydrine and Hemorphite has 280 Zydrine.

GavinCapacitor
Posted - 2010.03.02 16:17:00 - [23]
 

Oh look its this thread again.

Joking aside, people always talk about risk vs. reward like it could be fixed. 100% more yeild from low sec veld? that would risk a hulk when a miner could just get 2 mining in high sec.

So: why not simply make us *need* something from low sec. A mineral that only spawns there (or something). Or reduce the amount of minerals in high sec. Force people to go there by reducing the risk vs reward in the other places.

Jim Ned
Posted - 2010.03.02 20:09:00 - [24]
 

Does it really matter about boosts to low, 0.0, and worm hole mining if the mineral prices are so lousy?

If you want people to mine in these places, make it profitable again.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.03.02 20:43:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar
Wonder if CCP would actually implement this.


No, because CCP actually stands for Carebear Catering Party.

Dantes Revenge
Caldari
Posted - 2010.03.03 00:03:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 03/03/2010 00:08:27
Originally by: GavinCapacitor
So: why not simply make us *need* something from low sec. A mineral that only spawns there (or something). Or reduce the amount of minerals in high sec. Force people to go there by reducing the risk vs reward in the other places.

Because it's already been tried. Level5 missions anyone? Does anyone from highsec actually do them?

If a tier3 or a meta level tier2 (as someone suggested) comes out that requires certain "lowsec only" ingredients, there are enough corps already in lowsec who will mine the majority of what will be needed. Only when these items become the norm for most fits will the demand rise and that can take a long time. The demand for Morphite hasn't risen by much in two years since T2 items were introduced. Reprocessed loot from drone regions/missions accounts for some of that though.

From what I've seen, most highsec miners are solo players. Lowsec ninja mining is not profitable in any way without a substantial mega-boost which would unbalance the economy in favor of the corps already present in lowsec. I posted about the Zydrine boost then thought about it. It would become too profitable for the lowsec mining corps so I can't see that happening.

The only way I can possible think of doing it is to have a specialised ninja mining barge with LST (Limited Stealth Tech). Not a cloak but a scanner/targetting destabiliser. That means nobody will detect you on scanner unless they are using probes or are within 0.5 au. The targetting is destabilised by a signature mask that takes 3x longer than to lock a normal barge. That gives more chance for survivability for a miner who's on the ball. Offset this by having only the ability to fit 3x T1 strips due to CPU requirements for T2. Maybe a pre-fit system for high slots, no fitting slots, the strip lasers are just there as standard with the ship to prevent someone finding a way to fit T2 strips. A hold 3x that of a Hulk (effectively a jetcan). Other than that, it is the same as a Hulk attributes and slots but maybe a smudge less agile to offset the larger hold. However, making it too low agility puts it back on the danger list again. Skills the same as a Hulk, maybe an additional skill due to the the LST but possibly a small additional destabilising bonus per level.

The profit margin will be higher than the current ninja mining system that often means using a cruiser or a low cost retriever or a (Laughing) Skiff. Not having to warp back every three minutes with a full cargo means more time in the belt, also so pirates don't moan since they have more chances to catch them if they are in the belt for longer periods. They are just going to have to use a ship that has a very fast lock time to catch these barges.

No, it wouldn't help macro miners because, although it has a larger hold, it also only has T1 strips. With the same skill set as a Hulk, why use this instead to macro with?

Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.03.03 00:25:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Dantes Revenge
The only way I can possible think of doing it is to have a specialised ninja mining barge with LST (Limited Stealth Tech). Not a cloak but a scanner/targetting destabiliser. That means nobody will detect you on scanner unless they are using probes or are within 0.5 au.


Ask and you shall receive,. make sure you get the whole set. See you in low sec...

No not likely. Because most of you have the tools and have had the tools. The real thing keeping you from using low sec is your own fear, which is out of CCP's hands.

InUrJita CheckinUrPrice
Posted - 2010.03.03 00:57:00 - [28]
 

Some possible solutions:

-- Alter the basket of minerals from refining to supply significantly fewer high end minerals, and significantly more low end ones (increases reward, counters some of the drone region issue without raping drone entities)

-- Make the non-Capital t2 mining vessels t1 for insurance purposes (reduce risk) ALTERNATIVELY rework them to be more "combat" focused (If pvp is less one-sided, miners will be less assiduous in avoiding it -- also, battlehulk victor!)

-- Decrease the spawn rates for all roids better than veldspar in hisec (increase reward)

-- Decrease spawn rates for veldspar in low/null (nobody wants to mine veld out there, why have it; also leaves the hisec mining corps with a niche, albeit a crummy one)

-- Remove hauler spawns from the game

As a more long term goal, create regional variations in non-veld asteroid appearance eg: plag appearing only in Pure Blind. Regional variations are "fun", and more importantly create a reason for inter-region trade, which means more traffic which means more targets.

Mix and match solutions as appropriate, best when used together for full effect.

Lord Dralos
Posted - 2010.03.04 17:10:00 - [29]
 

i like how the pvpers love to denegrate the poor miners and haulers calling us carebears like thats a bad thing well us miners have asked for things to be made for mining ships to help them survive attacks from pretty much any ship out there as everyone knows who actually flys in a miner/hauling ship they are nothing more than pinyada's easy to break and generally full of delicious goodies.
the next problem is if you lose a warship at most you are losing what somewhere between 25 and 100 mill which unless your using T2 can be insured for 100% so totally no risks there of losing much isks and if things getting too hot for you guys you just hit your big red button which is get me the f*** out of here in 5 seconds or less warp drive.
now then as for us miners and haulers we press our big red button which might activate the warp drive and if we aint being scrammed or such like might get us out in about a minute or two before our glass tank falls apart.
which by the way our ships generally start at 100 mill and work their way up in isks the only one of the mining ships that even has a basic tank ability is the hulk and its T2 so your pretty much out of luck to insure it.
this is risk hundreds of millions of isks in low sec to be either jumped at gates scrammed in roid fields or just harrassed pretty much by everyone who want to have an easy and expencive kill for their kill boards.
you want to know what risk vs isks is like id like ccp to increase the initial costs of warships to equal that of mining and hauling ships then you could see the picture from our view point a little better.

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2010.03.04 18:05:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Lord Dralos

which by the way our ships generally start at 100 mill and work their way up in isks the only one of the mining ships that even has a basic tank ability is the hulk and its T2 so your pretty much out of luck to insure it.
this is risk hundreds of millions of isks in low sec to be either jumped at gates scrammed in roid fields or just harrassed pretty much by everyone who want to have an easy and expencive kill for their kill boards.



covetors cost like...10 mil? and are fully insurable

you dont have to use a hulk

the rest of your post follows this basic breakdown in understanding of the game so I won't bother to address its fallacies


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