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blankseplocked [Proposal] Eliminate T2 BPOs
 
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Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2010.05.06 04:30:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Jade Knight07
T2 bpo base waste factor is -10% base Production lvl -10% vs. base waste factor of an invented bpc -50% and production -50%.
T2 bpo's can be research just like t1's. essentially they have less than 0.01% waste factor an production level modifiers.
T2 invented bpc's using a decryptors (which cost between 5 million for one that wont do much up to and well over 50 million for the best ones.) you could get -30% ME and PE roughly, maybe a couple extra runs.
T2 bpo's can be copied, giving full max runs in the end.
T2 invented bpc's w/o decryptores will yield a maximum of 10% the t2 max run number or less… most of the time far less.
T2 bpo's owners don’t have to waste time waiting for the invention process or the extra copying time it takes to get the t1 bpc's to run invention on. Again no time wasted with failed invention jobs and no loss of isk from wasted datacores. And again t2 bpo owners don't have to waste slots to run the invention jobs.
Using a decryptor cost 10's of millions per job, also in most cases it also lowers the chance of success and will never even come close to offering the ME, PE, or amount of runs as a t2 bpo has. Let alone all three anywhere a t2 bpo's lvl.


Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.05.06 05:14:00 - [152]
 

Firstly, I don't own a T2 BPO.

But no!

T2 BPOs don't influence the market nearly as much as people think. Read up on the QEN articles about production.

Arguments about something being too good and therefore should be made worse are generally bad.

You'd do better arguing the Invention is a poor cousin and needs a buff. I'd support that. Cheaper decryptors, better ME/PE results from invention, etc. would be better outcomes in my view.

Gho Toh
Posted - 2010.05.06 13:45:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Baka Lakadaka

T2 BPOs don't influence the market nearly as much as people think. Read up on the QEN articles about production.

Arguments about something being too good and therefore should be made worse are generally bad.

You'd do better arguing the Invention is a poor cousin and needs a buff. I'd support that. Cheaper decryptors, better ME/PE results from invention, etc. would be better outcomes in my view.


Dude,

A tiny amount of BPO manufacturers produce more than half of the T2 ships in the game, a tiny amount of BPO manufacturers produce more than 1/3 of the total number of T2 items in the game and that's excluding T2 drones and ammo, of which a tiny amount of BPO manufacturers produce more than 60%

I think it's you who need to read the QEN

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.05.06 13:49:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Gho Toh
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka

T2 BPOs don't influence the market nearly as much as people think. Read up on the QEN articles about production.

Arguments about something being too good and therefore should be made worse are generally bad.

You'd do better arguing the Invention is a poor cousin and needs a buff. I'd support that. Cheaper decryptors, better ME/PE results from invention, etc. would be better outcomes in my view.


Dude,

A tiny amount of BPO manufacturers produce more than half of the T2 ships in the game, a tiny amount of BPO manufacturers produce more than 1/3 of the total number of T2 items in the game and that's excluding T2 drones and ammo, of which a tiny amount of BPO manufacturers produce more than 60%

I think it's you who need to read the QEN


Those numbers are so utterly useless, there are so many crap modules i wouldnt even think about producing as the profit margin is non existant. same goes for many ships.

If you strip out the bpos for those crap items ... they would just disappear from the market. (e.g. shield recharger. just to name one).
the real interesting numbers are missing in the QEN. like percentage break down for all items. that would give us a real picture of the impact.

but then again ... how can we trust an economist that isnt really playing the game and doesnt understand why prices move to what direction in eve. (pye prices e.g.)

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.06 13:52:00 - [155]
 

They should be removed without doubt

Gho Toh
Posted - 2010.05.06 14:31:00 - [156]
 

Forgot to support this, do'h

Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Gho Toh
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka


Dude,

I think it's you who need to read the QEN


Those numbers are so utterly useless, there are so many crap modules i wouldnt even think about producing as the profit margin is non existant. same goes for many ships.

If you strip out the bpos for those crap items ... they would just disappear from the market. (e.g. shield recharger. just to name one).
the real interesting numbers are missing in the QEN. like percentage break down for all items. that would give us a real picture of the impact.




Iraqi information minister: Nothing to see here, T2 BPOs have no impact on the market! I repeat, no impact impact on the market and the statistics are probably wrong anyway!



Yeah, like the interceptors, all those crap interceptors with no profit, where the tiny number of BPO manufacturers produce a whopping 84% of the total number produced.



Iraqi information minister: But it's probably different for everything else! I repeat different for everything else!!

Li Oiti
Posted - 2010.05.06 14:38:00 - [157]
 

Change T2 BPO into BPC with a number of run equivalent to Jita monthy sell average.
T3 production process the opposite way to get T2 BPC.

Same skills but not Magic chance factor.

Then :

T1 everyone.
T2 Empire and you need to Pos invest.
T3 Lowsec and lower.

Anonymous Trader
Posted - 2010.05.06 14:55:00 - [158]
 

It's really time for them to die now...

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.06 15:18:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Mr LaForge
*posting in a "I don't have a T2 BPO so no one else should either" thread*


+1

Peter VonThal
Raygun Technologies
Posted - 2010.05.06 15:37:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Mr LaForge
*posting in a "I don't have a T2 BPO so no one else should either" thread*


This.

Topic not supported.

Exostema
Posted - 2010.05.06 15:54:00 - [161]
 

Not supported

Tau Dades
Caldari
Even End of the Universe
Posted - 2010.05.06 16:05:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Mr LaForge
*posting in a "I don't have a T2 BPO so no one else should either" thread*

Turmio Taivas
Amarr
Financial Removal
Posted - 2010.05.06 17:35:00 - [163]
 

No. Because all T2 stuff, modules, ships and ammo will get more expensive. No thanks.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.05.06 20:44:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Gho Toh
Forgot to support this, do'h

Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Gho Toh
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka


Dude,

I think it's you who need to read the QEN


Those numbers are so utterly useless, there are so many crap modules i wouldnt even think about producing as the profit margin is non existant. same goes for many ships.

If you strip out the bpos for those crap items ... they would just disappear from the market. (e.g. shield recharger. just to name one).
the real interesting numbers are missing in the QEN. like percentage break down for all items. that would give us a real picture of the impact.




Iraqi information minister: Nothing to see here, T2 BPOs have no impact on the market! I repeat, no impact impact on the market and the statistics are probably wrong anyway!



Yeah, like the interceptors, all those crap interceptors with no profit, where the tiny number of BPO manufacturers produce a whopping 84% of the total number produced.



Iraqi information minister: But it's probably different for everything else! I repeat different for everything else!!


It truely is funny to see all kinds of T2 BPO owners running in here making claims about how invention is better than being a T2 BPO owner,T2 BPO's have no affect on the market, if removed the market would crash without them and its even funnier the ones that have T2 BPO's claim they don't and think they have no affect on the market.

I have talked to many T2 BPO owners and having one, is simply an ISK printing press.

Julia Venatrix
Posted - 2010.05.07 00:20:00 - [165]
 

Removing T2 BPOs won't affect the market for popular items, where T2 BPOs can't produce volumes matching the market demand.

However, removal will broaden access to market-based PvP for unpopular items.

Supported.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.07 00:30:00 - [166]
 

I understand both sides of this issue. However, I think that ultimately we have a problem where the game would be better off without them, but that they don't play enough of a role in the game to justify destroying the absolutely massive incredible investments built around them. People complain, for example, that they can't get into the T2 market because T2 BPOs keep them out. However, I think it's eminently clear that there is plenty of competition for T2 modules that actually have a market to speak of to start with!

IMO, HTFU... it's a lot easier to say "delete the other guy's 650 billion ISK!" than it is to say to delete your own.

-Liang

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.05.07 00:55:00 - [167]
 

Many people apparently don't realize that buffing invention won't make invention more profitable, it will only bring crash both market prices and cost prices. So nothing will change, margins won't be better. Those margins are already good enough, to be honest.

TheBlueMonkey
Gallente
Fags R Us
Posted - 2010.05.07 16:05:00 - [168]
 

People need to stop quoting a hack who's dropped back to doing economic break down for a computer game.

Saying 50% of T2 is made from bpo's means nothing because it's not in context.

How many mods\ships\ammo items are there first?

Things like mining crystals take a ages to burn out so the demand for them is limited and BPO's will dominate that market BUT if the bpo holders decided to charge 50mil a crystal, the inventors would rush in and bring the price crashing down in seconds.

Actual, in context numbers are needed before you can call this.

so

Stop *****ing about something that a preschool level economist is talking about.

I mean, if he was good at his job then surely he'd be getting paid alot more than a videogame company could pay him.

Also,
If he were doing both and had eve as a side project, what do you think he'd spend more time on?
A game or a job that pays x hundread k a year?

Out of context data is irelivant it's like basing a car company around
"we buy any car"
so?
I'll buy any car too, I'll give you £500 for a perfectly working year old bently.

Out of context data, pay attention.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2010.05.07 16:29:00 - [169]
 

Oddly enough I took a bet with a friend of mine who owns a nice T2 BPO. he would build from that one and I would do the same by invention with my alt and we would see who made better profit in the course of a month.

I beat him because my volume way outperformed his volume. He could build cheaper but I could mass produce due to having a lot more BPC's

So I made my profit in volume instead of by trying to get mucho ISK per sale.


Julia Venatrix
Posted - 2010.05.07 17:40:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Oddly enough I took a bet with a friend of mine who owns a nice T2 BPO. he would build from that one and I would do the same by invention with my alt and we would see who made better profit in the course of a month.

Which BPO? That makes rather a lot of difference.

RedLion
Caldari
State Constructions

Posted - 2010.05.07 22:59:00 - [171]
 

this, or start reseeding t2 bpo either way is ok by me

dontknowaboutmyships
Posted - 2010.05.08 00:16:00 - [172]
 

ITT: People whining about things they want but can't afford.

Why doesn't everyone get a free titan!

Not supported.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2010.05.08 02:45:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: La Dudette
CCP started a transition from BPO to invention, but never finished it. This has consequences: a small number of people are able to circumvent invention and make exorbitant profits that inventors cannot compete with.


You're missing it. Invention wasn't supposed to replace BPOs, it was supposed to turn ridiculously high profits into moderate ones. It has succeeded in this beyond anyone's greatest expectations, and actually gone further, turning ridiculously high profits into below-average ones in most cases.

Quote:
  • The system is self-reinforcing, as the owners will naturally make the most money and continue to usurp further BPOs



T2 BPOs are about 5th or 6th on the list of things that make the most money in this game. Suggest you try the first five.

Quote:
  • The system continues to be fundamentally unfair to new players: there are still people out there with a blank cheque that was won in the lottery, not earned. Every one such person keeps tens to hundreds of inventors out of the market.



  • The lottery was unfair, but those cheques have been cashed. Now you are left with people who paid good isk for items that removing would be fundamentally less fair, than continuing to allow new players a goal to strive towards. Every inventor can easily replace the output of multiple BPOs. There are over 10,000 T2 BPOs, there are tens of thousands of inventors. Inventors keep inventors out of the market by working to lower and lower margins as they continually become more efficient at it.

    Quote:
  • CCP is inconsistent: rare moons have been addressed through alchemy, but this hasn't. Worse, rare moons POSs can be attacked, BPOs are safe in stations.



  • Alchemy didn't at all address rare moons in the way T2 BPOs have ALREADY been addressed though invention. Alchemy moons can be attacked, just like rare moons. BPOs can remain safe, just like invention. On the other hand, any T2 BPO owner who needs to come close to making a return within A DECADE, needs to use a POS array, making them vulnerable to attack, and also reducing the efficiency of their BPO to worse than the ME-1 possible with invention for a lower investment.

    Quote:
    [list]
  • Make the market function properly: eliminate T2 BPOs.



  • The market is already functioning properly, it's just that you do not want to pay what others have for the same thing, you would rather kick over their sandcastle than spend time building one.

    Quote:
    Reactions, please. If you have a vested interest, declare it at least: that way we at least we know what you stand for.


    I have a Hemorphite Mining Crystal II BPO, I BOUGHT it, many years ago, and have not built off it for several years, as they currently sell for 75% of the BPO build cost (and sadly do not refine to their component parts). I would stand to gain HEAVILY though removal of T2 BPOs, because I have quite a stock, in fact, I could solo supply the market for this item for many years, and without other BPOs out there, I would make much more isk than owning the BPO or selling it, would ever make.

    Removal of BPOs wouldn't gain anything for people who do not have one, not a single isk. Invention profit is the least amount of isk people are willing to accept, and no more. You see this when every time a new item is introduced, the market floods with inventors, and then dissipates as profits evaporate in increasingly small time frames.

    The problem is simply a psychological one. Someone else has something, they worked hard for it, you do not want to do the same, so they shouldn't have it either, even though you gain no benefit at all in the destruction of their hard work.

    Lord Fitz
    Project Amargosa
    Posted - 2010.05.08 03:02:00 - [174]
     

    Originally by: Dodgy Past
    Yet many people have enough T2 BPOs to fill all their production slots so that limitation isn't relevant to them.


    I have one T2 BPO, which actually never fills any slot because it's not worth building off. Meanwhile I fill 50-60 production slots at all times, and could potentially fill 30 more if I honestly wanted to spend the RL time.

    Very few people who have T2 BPOs have enough to fill all their production slots. There are more people with T2 BPOs that make no isk AT ALL than there are people with more than a handful of them.

    Most T2 BPOs are less profitable occupying a slot than occupying that same slot with invented BPCs or something T1. Only the very few make 'reasonable' profits, and those sell for the profit they would otherwise make in the better part of a decade.

    Quote:
    Therefore to make running t2 BPC from bpo worthwhile you would have to sell the BPC for more than the cost of the built items it could produce, which is why you never see them.


    I have done this with my T2 BPO, because you actually lose money to build off it, selling a BPC for 'anything' is better than that.

    Quote:
    So if a certain BPO makes you 5 billion a year at full capacity, you might value it for a three year break even at 15 + 5 (say). This certainly seems to be the way sell order discussions go most of the time. The only reason you would justify a higher premium is if you have additional BPOs and you can control an entire market segment.

    In any case, the first part of this value is addressed by this proposal: convert the BPO into enough BPCs to last for X years. The premium is lost, but the profit is not.


    I don't know of any T2 BPOs that are only going for 3 years profit, most are 7-10 years of continuous building at a POS array. Honestly, do you think there is any difference between retaining BPOs, and converting them into 10 years worth of BPCs? Your advantage is only going to come after 10 years if it was one really big BPC, and you will shoot invention in the foot if you convert them into multiple BPCs which allow people to do their production in parallel.

    Quote:
    There is no real limit (other than raw skills) to the number of T2 BPCs the inventor can have cooking at any one time.


    There actually isn't a limit at all, as long as the profit you are making exceeds the cost of buying GTCs, you can have infinite slots going. This is why invention profits for casual inventors don't look super great, they're competing against people that only need to make about 13,000 isk/hr per slot to break even, anything about that is profit.

    Quote:
    I would refrain from voting for the abolishment of T2 BPOs if invented BPC ME's could be brought to levels > 5. There are enough proposals for this. If that was done, BPOs would still have an advantage, but at least the disparity of the production costs is reduced. And this would ofc bring T2 ship prices down, which I would welcome.


    No they wouldn't, the effective level of T2 BPOs is less than -1 ME as they need to be built at rapid facilities to generate the amount of isk for even 5-10 year break even points. Invention, which is low risk, low investment would be 'better' than the BPOs. Not to mention there would be less profit in invention because it would be easier.

    Quote:
    There are these items which are unavailable for newcommers to eve just because they werent playing when bpos were seeded, only possible way to get them is to buy them from their current owners willing to sell them at a very overpriced rate.


    So what you are saying, is that T2 BPOs are overpriced, and not worth how much people pay for them. Isn't that an argument for boosting them? If they're not worth it, then surely the can't be overpowered, given the disparity being argued is one of cost, and not utility, since the end product is the same.

    Marlona Sky
    Caldari Provisions
    Posted - 2010.05.08 04:55:00 - [175]
     

    Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
    Originally by: Jade Knight07
    T2 bpo base waste factor is -10% base Production lvl -10% vs. base waste factor of an invented bpc -50% and production -50%.
    T2 bpo's can be research just like t1's. essentially they have less than 0.01% waste factor an production level modifiers.
    T2 invented bpc's using a decryptors (which cost between 5 million for one that wont do much up to and well over 50 million for the best ones.) you could get -30% ME and PE roughly, maybe a couple extra runs.
    T2 bpo's can be copied, giving full max runs in the end.
    T2 invented bpc's w/o decryptores will yield a maximum of 10% the t2 max run number or less… most of the time far less.
    T2 bpo's owners don’t have to waste time waiting for the invention process or the extra copying time it takes to get the t1 bpc's to run invention on. Again no time wasted with failed invention jobs and no loss of isk from wasted datacores. And again t2 bpo owners don't have to waste slots to run the invention jobs.
    Using a decryptor cost 10's of millions per job, also in most cases it also lowers the chance of success and will never even come close to offering the ME, PE, or amount of runs as a t2 bpo has. Let alone all three anywhere a t2 bpo's lvl.




    QFT

    Llyandrian
    Amarr
    Livestock Science Exchange
    Posted - 2010.05.08 10:26:00 - [176]
     


    Originally by: Turmio Taivas
    No. Because all T2 stuff, modules, ships and ammo will get more expensive. No thanks.


    Less competition = higher prices. NO!


    Ka choop
    Posted - 2010.05.08 11:46:00 - [177]
     

    T2 BPO's should go in some way because they corner the market.
    How much they corner the market depends on the volume traded.

    For products where T2 BPO owners can cover 5% invention will cover 95%.
    But,
    If demand is at a point where T2 BPO owners can cover 95% of the market, invention, while dictating the price can only ever cover the remaining 5%.

    There is no way any non T2 BPO owner (the inventor) can push out a T2 owner. Not by doing it better not by making better deals with mineral suppliers, not by investing more time. It's just not going to happen.
    For a dynamic market this is what you would want and T2 makes the market less dynamic, hence a bad thing.

    It's long overdue that the market dinosaurs hit their extinction.

    Kyo Haku
    Minmatar
    Gradient
    Electus Matari
    Posted - 2010.05.08 13:43:00 - [178]
     

    Nope, works fine as it is. A lot of T2 stuff is expensive enough already, we don't need prices higher.

    Xahara
    StarFleet Enterprises
    Systematic-Chaos
    Posted - 2010.05.08 14:08:00 - [179]
     

    If anything, as mentioned before, boost invention. Taking away T2 BPOs would raise the price of T2 items and that's exactly what CCP tried to bring down after the moon exploit scandal, with alchemy. Not supported.

    xavier69
    Gallente
    Stark Enterprises LLC

    Posted - 2010.05.10 01:57:00 - [180]
     

    Edited by: xavier69 on 10/05/2010 01:57:14
    In my exp over the past 1 1/2 years doing invention, I have made 70% - 80% profit margin continually. That's covering my cost and 70-80% more.

    Some things to consider in T2 production,

    #1 Who can use what your making is it a mainstream item or is this a small market item that requires tons of skill points ?
    This is going to effect how much you sell and in the end your profit margin as items that don't sell fast get flooded on the market and there prices drop horribly.

    #2 Knowing your market and where to sell, If you sell your stuff in Jita you better be a volume seller as the profit margins in that area are the sux.

    #3 I think the biggest mistake people make here is they train up the relevant skills with out doing any research for the demand of a product or where to sell it to maximize profit and when they get the news flash that its already a flooded item on the market with nearly no profit margin they get angry.
    You should watch the market in the region you want to sell pick the item in question figure out the costs involved and how much you will make and then research how much dose the sell price fluctuate in a 2-3 month period generally you need to create a excel spread sheet to properly calculate this complex equation.

    Invention is not for everyone some people are more suited to role of miner its alot simpler.


    In the end I think this has little to do with BPO and more to do with supply and demand and the lack of research of those getting into Invention and item creation.


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