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Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2010.02.20 15:15:00 - [1]
 

The dramiel.

I honestly was looking forward to people asking for blaster buffs. Not to mention all the old balance issues that have yet to be resolved; the 1 midslot AF, roflkets, defender missiles, caldari powergrid issues, sensor damps...

But instead we get whines about the dramiel disguised as "How do I kill it?" "Why would I want to fly an interceptor when it exists?" Then there are the blatant threads, "How will the Dramiel be nerfed?" And my favorite, "How do I fit and fly this monstrousity of a frigate?"

First a dramiel can be killed, just like the old nanoships could be killed. What contributes to a dramiel being overpowered or not is 'Is the ammount of effort required to kill it reasonable?'

The next question is 'Does it completely obsolete any other ships or ship classes?'

I'm guessing another question you might ask is, 'Is it a solopwnmobile?'

And finally, 'Are its stats in line with other ship?'

The answers are: It is difficult to kill compared to other simular ships, mainly interceptors. To gank it in 0.0 requires either baiting it or having a bubble on either side of the gate with a fast tackler and enough firepower to quickly kill it before the tackler dies. In 1v1 fights specialized fits are required to counter it. It would almost obsolete interceptors but its cost is several times that of an interceptor and it lacks the signature reduction bonus. It pretty much obsoletes assualt frigates. It can kill any other frigate except for some of the other faction frigates. Unlike the other faction frigates it is useful in general pvp situations you might encounter. It can kill everything that might have a chance at catchin it and run from everything it can't kill. It has good dps, very high speed, a nice pool of EHP, and alot of utility from its 4 midslots.

But those aren't binary answers. They are qualitative assessments. They don't even answer the question, 'Is it good or overpowered?'

Add to that the devs stated intentions that faction ships were supposed to be top of the line except for maybe T3. To some degree or another dramiels are supposed to beat the crap out of anything other than daredevils and cruors.

I would really like to get the dramiel thing done and over with so we can go back to making threadnaughts about blasters. They really suck balls right now.

Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.02.20 15:26:00 - [2]
 

Anytime that people encounter a ship that requires the slightest amount of thought other than pushing F1-F8 to kill, they run screaming to the forums in a dead panic.

Unfortunately, 1% of the loudly whining population of EVE will eventually get this ship nerfed, just like everything else.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.02.20 16:02:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 20/02/2010 16:06:01
Originally by: Neesa Corrinne
Anytime that people encounter a ship that requires the slightest amount of thought other than pushing F1-F8 to kill, they run screaming to the forums in a dead panic.

Unfortunately, 1% of the loudly whining population of EVE will eventually get this ship nerfed, just like everything else.


Dramiel being better than a t2 something = fine.
Dramiel being better than every t2 and all the pirate frigates while being flown in such a way that it's extremely difficult to catch and kill = no, seriously over the top. It's flat out too good at everything.

Daredevil = better than a Taranis, but short ranged
Worm = pure suck, but ideally would be better than an Ishkur.
Succubus = Better than the Retribution (lol) and various other laserboats but fairly slow
Dramiel = Best frigate hull hands down, out of everything.

I mean really, what doesn't it have? It's got drones, good gun dps, high range, insane speed, generous slot layout, respectable EHP and decent fittings.

Where precisely is the weakness here?
You ***** about things requiring thought but what exactly is the Dram doing to variety in this game?
"Hmm, what frigate to fly... oh! This one is better than all the others! Well that's a no brainer"

Needing overwhelming force or more of X to kill X is not the sign of a balanced ship. We have seen this with nanos and 200km uberfalcons.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.02.20 16:38:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

You ***** about things requiring thought but what exactly is the Dram doing to variety in this game?
"Hmm, what frigate to fly... oh! This one is better than all the others! Well that's a no brainer"


I don't think the OP was *****ing, I'm pretty sure the message was, "Okay, we get it, it's overpowered. Let's get the petition in and then talk about something that needs fixing more."

And I agree.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.02.20 17:41:00 - [5]
 

Latest "Nerf Dramiel" thread is disguised as a "guess what the monthly whine is" thread .. oh wait.
Originally by: Neesa Corrinne
Anytime that people encounter a ship that requires the slightest amount of thought other than pushing F1-F8 to kill, they run screaming to the forums in a dead panic.

Unfortunately, 1% of the loudly whining population of EVE will eventually get this ship nerfed, just like everything else.

So the same as pirates spamming incessant threads about how WoW-like and unfair the disconnect mechanics are every time a carebear hauler evades their "oh so clever" camp?

Any ship that outperforms all but one or two of its peers by such a wide margin as the Dramiel does, is by definition overpowered.
Overpowered inevitably leads to a reduction of capability in one or more areas to bring it line with the rest of its peers.

Just be thankful that it is only one hull and not a whole school like the nano crap which resulted in a major overhaul of mechanics, much to the leet FoTM PvP'ers dismay.

Napro
Caldari
Simplistic Syndicate
Cha0s Theory
Posted - 2010.02.20 17:47:00 - [6]
 

I don't care about little ships.. but the amount of whining it has caused and the amount of damage control you're putting up here tells me everything I need to know as to whether it is overpowered or not

Atreus Tac
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.02.20 17:51:00 - [7]
 

Is it just me or is there now a ship that truly fits what I think high end frigates should be.

Hard to catch fast little buggers, ability to lock and catch pretty much all ships, decent DPS out side scram/web range to actually hurt things. Yet not OMG dps that would worry larger ships in gangs.

Dram/daredevil IMO are what the best frigates should be.

To nerf them would just make this game a little bit more sad.

TraininVain
Posted - 2010.02.20 18:22:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: TraininVain on 20/02/2010 18:24:19
I don't know if the guys flying them saying they are fine are all used to vagas or what but it seems pretty evident to me that when one ship obsoletes everything else comparable you've got some issues with balance.

Without the dram you've got a pretty interesting spread of frig class ships and weapons now.

Rockets need a buff obviously but it's actually kind of a choice as to what you're going to fly especially with the AC buff. You've got lots of interesting options and rock-paper-scissors going on between AFs, inties and T1 frigs.

However with the dram in my hangar I can't really see why I'd want to fly anything else in the combat ceptor/AF class other than for the sake of obstinacy.

It's got the best bonuses (AC damage, falloff AND tracking), the best slot layout (basically 5,4,3) has a drone bay and a decent amount of EHP relative to the speed. It also makes most tackle ceptors look slow.

Most ships I feel represent some sort of choice when you're fitting them. I don't honestly feel like I'm having to make any choices fitting a dram. It's a fast MWD boat. It's an AB boat. It's got a neut. It's got dual prop and buffer.

Sure it's not unkillable but what is? Razz

Saying it dies to curse, rapier or blobs is neither here nor there. It's still the absolute best in it's class by some margin. I feel a tad guilty for flying it.

They do cost me 50-70m but that's just supply and demand. They insure for 380k. The inflated price is just because they're so prawn.

The amount of "DRAM IS FINE" posts in here are pretty clear indication everyone knows something is up with them.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.02.20 18:27:00 - [9]
 

I have really good skills for this ship, but can they just nerf it into oblivion so that I don't have to see constant whine threads over it? How about they remove 3 mid slots and 2 low slots and 1 turret slot and the drone bay and lower its base speed by 30% and raise its mass by 100%?

-Liang

Killiades
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.02.20 18:54:00 - [10]
 

if ccp should nerf this, they should then re-imburse all pilots who own one/multiples of this ship the difference in price from when they bought it to its future price bracket...

truthfully? there isnt anything wrong with the ship... if you want to fly with the elite, you spend cash, and you build it out HOW YOU WANT IT, if you have the money to hand, you fit your ship with the best. this ship is an example of a ship that you fit with the best available to put it to its best potential. if you nerf the ship, you are removing what people consider to be an elite class of ship within a bracket of combat tacklers...

if people are complaining that 'interceptors are made void by this ship' horse crap... interceptors are STILL a front line combat vessel, because they have 1 thing the dram doesnt have... reduced sig radius when using MWD... so, all those who are CRYING about Dramiels being overpowered, research into the ship, and youll find Dramiels NEED the speed they go at because otherwise their sig radius is BIGGER than a cruisers and if the nerf is implemented that you want, they will then be SLOWER than a ceptor...

Killiades

Orfhlaith
Posted - 2010.02.20 20:18:00 - [11]
 

Simple solution...take away 1 mid...force a choice between dual prop and scram or single prob, MSE and scram...problem solved. Thats the only problem i really see with it now is it can dual prop, MSE and scram because of 4 mids...take away 1 mid and force choices. I don't fly one now and if they don't change it I will train for it simply because it really has no downside atm.. I can pretty much dictate any fight and win or run...with most ships once you commit your commited unless you get lucky. With a dram you decide to leave you just do it.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.02.20 20:23:00 - [12]
 

It's just as much the nimrods that over abuse a ships status as it is the whiners for getting a ship/mod nerfed. After all they are interconnected.

Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Discord.
Posted - 2010.02.20 23:07:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Orfhlaith
Simple solution...take away 1 mid...force a choice between dual prop and scram or single prob, MSE and scram...problem solved. Thats the only problem i really see with it now is it can dual prop, MSE and scram because of 4 mids...take away 1 mid and force choices. I don't fly one now and if they don't change it I will train for it simply because it really has no downside atm.. I can pretty much dictate any fight and win or run...with most ships once you commit your commited unless you get lucky. With a dram you decide to leave you just do it.


Sc**** off a mid really is the ideal way to handle this.

Without the dualprop or the MSE buffer its no longer broken. It'll be very good for whatever specific role you choose for it, but, can't do everything at once anymore.

I know that people who fly it but recognize a nerf is inevitable want it to be the dronebay instead that takes the axe, but, that just addresses how OP the ship is solo, not small gang situations (where it is unsurprisingly still overpowered).

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.02.20 23:14:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Killiades
if ccp should nerf this, they should then re-imburse all pilots who own one/multiples of this ship the difference in price from when they bought it to its future price bracket...



Yes, they should reimburse them exactly the same way as people got reimbursed their polycarbs after the nano nerf Very Happy

lil Ghork
Posted - 2010.02.20 23:25:00 - [15]
 

true other issues need more attention like fixing roflkets

not sure it should be nerfed or if the other faction / pirate frigates should be boosted, just balance them somewhat. Slight mass increase will go along way

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2010.02.20 23:55:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Latest "Nerf Dramiel" thread is disguised as a "guess what the monthly whine is" thread .. oh wait.


Well I thought I had been fairly nuetral in prsenting the case. I never committed to declaring the dramiel overpowered or not. I defined what I thought the criterea for being overpowered were. I defined how the dramiel fit with that criteria. And the dramiels best defence? I included it. CCP declared pirate ships were supposed to outclass T2. It was intended by the devs to be a ****ing nasty ship.

The dramiel isn't a clear case in my mind. Whats likely is that either the 'nerf' momentum will continue at its current rate until long threadnaughts are formed and CCP decide to do something to appease the masses, or the Dramiel will become accepted by the general population.

The current problem for the dramiel is that no matter your skill level in pvp, having one catch you doing 7 klicks, then be able to run away at 2 klicks when you scramble it is extremely unsatisfying. I should actually say it ****es people off. There aren't really any other ships that can do this from within scram range. And easily escaping a fight you 'commited' to draws ire from your opponents. ****ed off people come and whine on the forums about nerfs.

Again in the dramiels defense fighting a rapier solo feels the same way. Getting the stupid thing pinned down is a pain best accomplished by either long range neuts or a suprise sprint at the rapier culminating in it being scrambled. Both of which require skill, the ability to outthink your opponent, and having considered how to beat the thing.

What I actually want to take a stand about isn't whether the dramiel is overpowered or not. Its that I hate how CCP balances EVE. They listen to public opinion but never seem to be able to articulate their own analysis of their own goddamn game. So it just looks like they follow the mob around waiting for the mob to pick a target to smack with the nerfbat. They do awesomely fail things like say how capital missiles will be 'balanced' because you can target paint their intended victims. The ignore old problems that absolutely everyone can agree exist. When they swing the nerfbat, its hit or miss whether the target will be balanced or shattered in a million peices on the floor. Hence the nerfhammer. Sometimes they don't seem to understand pvp. Fine, there are alot of different styles and I wouldn't be any happier if CCP understood solo combat completely but were clueless about fleet engagements, or capitols. So there need to be some experts that are consulted. Instead I get the feeling that individual developers form their own oppinions based on whatever random experience they've had without bothering to consult their in house experts. Then they proceed to follow those opinions with the same strength and blind conviction of the nerfers/apologists of this thread.

What really sucks is that since CCPs style seems to listen to the forums the only things that ever get addressed are the ones that are most violently emoraged about. Important but long standing problems get ignored.

That said, EvE is probably more balanced today than it ever was in the past.

Ko Shimin
Minmatar
Romanian Space Explorer
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.02.21 05:38:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Ko Shimin on 21/02/2010 05:45:33
The only good thing about the Dramiel is it's speed. When you have such a big advantage in speed, you can choose your fights easier, can tackle better, can survive better.

As a 1 vs 1 killer, the Dramiel's target options are limited though: intys, t1 frigs, some AFs.

Someone posted a statistic of kills made by frigate class ships. Dramiel was on top, followed by Taranis, another frig holding 3rd place and the Rifter on 4th place.

Stop whining about the Dramiel. It's a good ship, but still a ship. When you lose a Dramiel you feel the pain in isk and in morale. When you lose a 300k isk Rifter (no fittings included in price) you don't give a crap.

The Dramiel is a fun ship to fly, gives you a particular feeling. You control a ship that is kinda unique in capabilities, but still fragile and expensive. It's a rush.

On the other hand, if CCP nerfs it, I don't care. I have my Rifters. And as long as the Rifter is kept as it is, I will always have guaranteed fun by killing expensive frigs with a ship that is cheap, reliable, versatile and good looking Cool .


Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2010.02.21 07:04:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Neesa Corrinne
Anytime that people encounter a ship that requires the slightest amount of thought other than pushing F1-F8 to kill, they run screaming to the forums in a dead panic.

Unfortunately, 1% of the loudly whining population of EVE will eventually get this ship nerfed, just like everything else.


No. Actually as soon as they came out interceptors vanished. That's my problem with them. There is no reason to fly any other frigate other than a dramiel for 99% of what you'd want to use a frigate for.

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2010.02.21 07:12:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: lil Ghork
true other issues need more attention like fixing roflkets

not sure it should be nerfed or if the other faction / pirate frigates should be boosted, just balance them somewhat. Slight mass increase will go along way


No, rockets don't need addressing til this is fixed. Because you'd be insane to fly anything that uses rockets when you could fly the dramiel with near max'd skills in a few weeks of training.

Killiades
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.02.22 23:56:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Neesa Corrinne
Anytime that people encounter a ship that requires the slightest amount of thought other than pushing F1-F8 to kill, they run screaming to the forums in a dead panic.

Unfortunately, 1% of the loudly whining population of EVE will eventually get this ship nerfed, just like everything else.


No. Actually as soon as they came out interceptors vanished. That's my problem with them. There is no reason to fly any other frigate other than a dramiel for 99% of what you'd want to use a frigate for.


love it how you talk utter horse crap...

interceptors are still in fleets because of the bonuses i said before, if people arent using interceptors because there are dramiels, they fail, hard...

interceptors have many bonuses over dramiels, 1st thing being you can buy 4 or 5 of them to 1 Dramiel... 2nd being the following, they dont get primaried when there are faction ships on the field...

my advice, talk less horse crap, and chew a breath mint before you spark up again with more ****e...

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2010.02.23 00:20:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 23/02/2010 00:20:53
Originally by: Killiades
if ccp should nerf this, they should then re-imburse all pilots who own one/multiples of this ship the difference in price from when they bought it to its future price bracket...


Get in line. Phantasm owners are ahead of you.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.02.23 00:25:00 - [22]
 

I'd nerf it with cake

OM NOM NOM NOM

Drama is fat and can't go zoom zoom now!

Pater Peccavi
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2010.02.23 00:41:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
I'd nerf it with cake

OM NOM NOM NOM

Drama is fat and can't go zoom zoom now!



fixed

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.02.23 01:03:00 - [24]
 

i laughed.

Quote:
To gank it in 0.0 requires either baiting it or having a bubble on either side of the gate with a fast tackler and enough firepower to quickly kill it before the tackler dies. In 1v1 fights specialized fits are required to counter it.

You must be an alliance pet, considering how stupid you are and the posting alt and all.
If you think you need to 'gank' it using more than one person you seriously need to go back to doing pvp basics.

Quote:
supposed to beat the crap out of anything other than daredevils and cruors.

I must have missed the part where a Cruor can beat a good Dramiel...
So you must be either REALLY high or just REALLY bad.


Seriously, the Dramiel is good.
Is it overpowered? Yes, but only because it's too fast and essentially undoes everything CCP did to end the nano age.
Is it unkillable? No. You'll be much more successful in killing them if you know how to dogfight in the first place Rolling Eyes

Dr Fighter
Posted - 2010.02.23 10:02:00 - [25]
 

"Nerf whine of the month"

i see what you did there...

TraininVain
Posted - 2010.02.23 10:15:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Killiades
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Neesa Corrinne
Anytime that people encounter a ship that requires the slightest amount of thought other than pushing F1-F8 to kill, they run screaming to the forums in a dead panic.

Unfortunately, 1% of the loudly whining population of EVE will eventually get this ship nerfed, just like everything else.


No. Actually as soon as they came out interceptors vanished. That's my problem with them. There is no reason to fly any other frigate other than a dramiel for 99% of what you'd want to use a frigate for.


love it how you talk utter horse crap...

interceptors are still in fleets because of the bonuses i said before, if people arent using interceptors because there are dramiels, they fail, hard...

interceptors have many bonuses over dramiels, 1st thing being you can buy 4 or 5 of them to 1 Dramiel... 2nd being the following, they dont get primaried when there are faction ships on the field...

my advice, talk less horse crap, and chew a breath mint before you spark up again with more ****e...


lol. People aren't saying it replaces stilettos and the like.

baltec1
Posted - 2010.02.23 15:01:00 - [27]
 

Sentinel ----> Dramiel

Max Khaos
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.02.23 15:21:00 - [28]
 

Remove dual prop ...... next

Max Tux
Posted - 2010.02.23 16:11:00 - [29]
 

they are all wrong - the hawk is the nerf whine ! its OP!!elleven!1!!2!!!

Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2010.02.23 19:15:00 - [30]
 

The discussion becomes more about what peoples' definition of overpowered is more than anything to do with the Dramiel itself. Some people think the game should have ships that can be flown solo and in groups that has the ability to escape when they want from most situations. In this way they dont need support or teamwork to have a reasonable chance at PVPing wherever they choose. Other people find this capability annoying and detrimental to their gameplay though not "overpowered" by their definition. Others feel this style of play nails the identification of overpowered exactly, usually pointing out all the other ships that can't do this same thing.

It's the nano argument all over again. People have differing opinions in what should be possible in EVE and have created their own definition of overpowered.

Had the Dramiel been given bigger DPS or tank or utility than other frigs there would have been zero complaints. Many people like to run away when things go bad, others like there to be a minimum of commitment needed to engage. These 2 groups will go around and around on this issue forever.

Comparing stats and ship sales and KMs and all the other crap is irrelevant since the heart of the argument lies in the differing opinions on the acceptability of the allowance of the issue mentioned above in EVE.



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