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Stygian Knight
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.02.17 09:12:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Stygian Knight on 17/02/2010 09:12:43
nope, not needed


EDIT: SNIPE !!!!

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.02.17 09:14:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: tekpede
If you can only afford a mustang and I can go and buy a ferrari then do you say "the ferrari shouldn't be faster than the mustang!!" we dont live in a perfectly balanced world, either is eve universe.

Peace


money and prices are a bad justification for game imbalances, there are enough people who can spend 100 mio for a frigate.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.02.17 09:52:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: ThaDollaGenerale
Leave it alone, that's its niche.

Which niche would that be? To be faster movers/lockers than interceptors?, To outdamage and out-tank Assault frigs?, To have slots to spare for eWar?, To have more cap than most Amarr ships of equal size even with nothing to use it on?

Dramiel is over the top, mainly due to the complete lack of reasonable counters.
Hitting it with the bat solves nothing if CCP introduces a similar ship somewhere down the road, but will work in the short term.

CCP has to sit down and think long and hard about what they want the game to play like in the shallow end of the pool (small hull, small gangs).
This includes:
- Looking at the role of AFs, preferably prior to any changes made to them.
- Finding a proper function for the T3 frigates that are supposedly coming Soon™ so they dont end up being as uninspired as the cruisers (fat buffer, dps!! .. whoopie!).
- Exploring possibility of creating gun-options for all Interdictors and missile options for appropriate destroyers.
- Looking at webs en lieu of Rapier/Hugginn. Scripting them has been aired (range/strength) which seems a perfect solution.
- ECM's impact on the sensor deficient sub-cruiser size. Creating a lowslot with a fixed bonus to base strength (similar to low-grade FW implants) for instance.
Etc.

In short, CCP has to stop ****ing about and start having their balance teams talk to each other before making changes!!!!!1111eleventy.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2010.02.17 10:36:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Apogee Realms
Originally by: Robert Caldera

no ship should be faster than an interceptor.
Its the purpose they have been built for and is kinda outperformed by a stupid frigate??
Agree with this. Should be slowed down and remove drones bay capacity.


As I wrote earlier. NO ship should be faster than ANGLE SHIP of same size. CCP even said. ANGELS are the master of speed. Dramiel SHOULD be faster than interceptor, but it should indeed loose a bit of drones, since that is not ANGELISH.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.02.17 11:02:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru

As I wrote earlier. NO ship should be faster than ANGLE SHIP of same size.
... bla ...



bullsh*t is still bullsh*t, even in repetition

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.02.17 12:34:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Seishi Maru

As I wrote earlier. NO ship should be faster than ANGLE SHIP of same size.
... bla ...



bullsh*t is still bullsh*t, even in repetition


Amazingly enough, this applies to you as well~

Bria Veril
Posted - 2010.02.17 13:07:00 - [37]
 

I think the dramiel is a well made ship *no I dont fly them at all, nor will I *
drones might be a bit over the top.. perhaps

Interceptors are tacklers meant to stop someone from running, so rest of fleet can
can a interceptor solo a dramiel.. hell no, question is should a interceptor be able to catch a dramiel ?.. no I think it was specifically built/changed to be a interceptors worst nightmare *and many other frigates* Dramiel is just that, a solo ship meant to kill what it can, and run from everything else "interceptors included ! *
and no it doesnt have more cap then all similar sized ships *Crusader has more cap with a mwd t2 fitted on both ships* sure crusaders gonna use more cap, but hey thats amarrs curse. It also has lower sensor str then some of the interceptors do. Oh and you can still make many ships do 4km/s or faster, and none are frigates, destroyers around 5km/s...makes them weaker, but they are hella fast.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.02.17 14:38:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 17/02/2010 14:45:40
Originally by: Bria Veril
..can a interceptor solo a dramiel.. hell no, question is should a interceptor be able to catch a dramiel ?.. no I think it was specifically built/changed to be a interceptors worst nightmare *and many other frigates* Dramiel is just that, a solo ship meant to kill what it can, and run from everything else "interceptors included ! *

Interceptor killing is all fine and dandy, problem is that it does equally well against everything up to probably including capitals (wait and see, I bet you it will happen Smile).. will take a while though Smile
Very few ships are able to counter it without making, in some cases, insane compromises (like small guns on BCs).
Originally by: Bria Veril
and no it doesnt have more cap then all similar sized ships *Crusader has more cap with a mwd t2 fitted on both ships* sure crusaders gonna use more cap, but hey thats amarrs curse.

Never said all, but most. Keep in mind that Amarr capacitors are intentionally oversized to help compensate for the laser cap use - you can see same trend on blaster/mwd boats.
Just the fact that the Dramiel capacitor is roughly equal to or greater than Amarr T2 frigate capacitors is wrong, especially considering that it has absolutely no use for it being an AC platform. Wolf/Jaguar works brilliantly with 30-40% less than what it has.
Originally by: Bria Veril
It also has lower sensor str then some of the interceptors do. Oh and you can still make many ships do 4km/s or faster, and none are frigates, destroyers around 5km/s...makes them weaker, but they are hella fast.

Sensor strength is irrelevant unless up against ECM wielders, its scan resolution is as high or higher than all interceptors, only 2 'ceptors with a slightly higher number I think.
Which ship apart from the Vagabond, Cynabal and interceptors goes 4k/s+ (without overheat)? Unless using EFT-only fits, as in not a fit that will ever be used except for laughs (ie. oversized MWDs).
Please show me the Destroyer that goes 5k/s+ .. Thrasher is the fastest I think and it only hits about 2.5k/s with dual overdrives/MWD.
Note that the Dramiel does 5k/s with no speed mods other than MWD and without overheating .. nothing even gets close to that .. Crusader which was the fastest ship around needs 3-4 lowslots dedicated to speed to even reach 5k/s!

The Dramiel is a wrench in the very fragile balance that existed in the small ship classes. With *new and improved* AFs and T3 being promised CCP gets to chose between rebalancing almost every sub-cruiser ship or hit the Dramiel pre-emptively.

Emma Leister
Posted - 2010.02.17 16:11:00 - [39]
 

Yeah, the dramiel should be fast because it is a angel ship.

But I can't help but notice that while it should be faster than a interceptor it shouldnt be 3-4km/s faster than a interceptor. 1-2km/s sure but its almost getting to 10km/s in a dramiel. Does it have drones? I can't remember, if it does then thats just over the top.

Doccia Ellicis
Caldari
Red Federation
Posted - 2010.02.17 16:17:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Doccia Ellicis on 17/02/2010 16:19:33
It is super fast.
It has 4 effective turrets
It has bonused tracking and falloff.
It has a 20m^3 drone bay with 15mm bandwidth.
It has a decent tank.
It has a ridiculously high scan resolution.

It screams OP.

Atreus Tac
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.02.17 16:38:00 - [41]
 

Please can you state how the dram is better than a daredevil at kill frigs.

Please can you state how a dram can have any effect on a decent gang that a normal inty wouldn't have.

Please can you tell me how a dram can kill a cap ship solo. If the ship was fit in such a poor way then odds are alot of other frigs could kill it if a dram could.

Please can you tell me what a dram can do that is so overpowered when going 10km/s a second, bar of course the fact that it is going 10km/s.

Vuoto
Posted - 2010.02.17 17:43:00 - [42]
 

in my opinion dramiel is how all the frigs should be...FAST! just add something small to the others frigs ( es: drones in retribution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). And the main difference between the dramiel and a inty is the SIGNATURE RADIUS when the MWD is active! and in my experience Signature radius affect also turrets... Dramiel is fine as it is... hard to kill. i'd like to see a NEW frigate hull-class with AB bonus...... that will be my ship... WOW! ( CCP i can draw better that your "artworks" if you want i'll send you new draws for 350 euro each one).

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.02.17 20:10:00 - [43]
 

If everyone is so upset that the Dramiel is faster than Interceptors...

Lets just make Interceptors faster than the Dramiel, no need for a nerf just buff Inty's problem solved!

Xing Fey
Posted - 2010.02.17 22:46:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/02/2010 22:51:54
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/02/2010 22:46:10
I continue to lol at "Faction interceptors shouldn't be faster than normal interceptors"

Coming soon:

"Faction shield boosters shouldn't boost more than normal shield boosters"

"Faction HACs shouldn't do more damage than normal HACs"


Also, learn2 web/scram. Learn to NOT CHASE A FRIGGIN SHIP FASTER THAN YOU ALL BY YOURSELF WHILE FLYING HASTILY AWAY FROM THE REST OF YOUR FLEET!


Edit: Also see what Vuoto said, If it's going faster than a 'ceptor it's also the size of a battlecruiser...

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.02.17 22:58:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Xing Fey
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/02/2010 22:51:54
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/02/2010 22:46:10
I continue to lol at "Faction interceptors shouldn't be faster than normal interceptors"


dramiel is not an interceptor, its a faction frigate.

Sunset Rogue
Posted - 2010.02.17 23:00:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Emma Leister
But I can't help but notice that while it should be faster than a interceptor it shouldnt be 3-4km/s faster than a interceptor. 1-2km/s sure but its almost getting to 10km/s in a dramiel.


This.

galphi
Gallente
Furnulum pani nolo
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2010.02.18 01:18:00 - [47]
 

An Angel ship should be fast, but 10km/sec is a bit quick. It's a little overpowered atm, just reduce it's base speed 5%, and reduce it's drone ability to two light drones instead of 3.

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.02.18 01:45:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Xing Fey
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/02/2010 22:51:54
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/02/2010 22:46:10
I continue to lol at "Faction interceptors shouldn't be faster than normal interceptors"


dramiel is not an interceptor, its a faction frigate.


Are you intentionally posting stupid stuff or does it just come naturally for you?

Ydyp Ieva
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.02.18 08:18:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Xing Fey
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/02/2010 22:51:54
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/02/2010 22:46:10
I continue to lol at "Faction interceptors shouldn't be faster than normal interceptors"


dramiel is not an interceptor, its a faction frigate.


Are you intentionally posting stupid stuff or does it just come naturally for you?

Mostly he isn't using much intelligent stuff to say something. But if you think a dram is a faction interceptor point me to the need of the skill interceptor to fly one? Oh wait you can't. So dram isn't an interceptor it isn't even tech 2. So in this case he is very right.

Angels ships should be fast, minmatar ships also should be fast. But I still don't see any minmatar frig that is faster then an interceptor. So that excuse is also moot. Fact is the dram is to powerfull to be just a faction frig.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2010.02.18 10:02:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Ydyp Ieva

Mostly he isn't using much intelligent stuff to say something. But if you think a dram is a faction interceptor point me to the need of the skill interceptor to fly one? Oh wait you can't. So dram isn't an interceptor it isn't even tech 2. So in this case he is very right.

Angels ships should be fast, minmatar ships also should be fast. But I still don't see any minmatar frig that is faster then an interceptor. So that excuse is also moot. Fact is the dram is to powerfull to be just a faction frig.


Your point is the moot one. All angel ships are faster than ALL other ships on same size. The cynabal is faster than the Vagabond! That is proof enough that CCP want angels to be faster. Machariel is faster than a Battlecruiser!

Following this simply logic.. Dramiel MUST be faster than an ANY interceptor.

That is their whole concept! The only thing relevant to raise is. HOW MUCH faster angels should be.....

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.02.18 10:42:00 - [51]
 

a firetail could be set up to be faster than interceptors before dominion. havent looked into it post dominion.

Amneamnius
Minmatar
Future Corps
Posted - 2010.02.18 10:59:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru
Originally by: Ydyp Ieva

Mostly he isn't using much intelligent stuff to say something. But if you think a dram is a faction interceptor point me to the need of the skill interceptor to fly one? Oh wait you can't. So dram isn't an interceptor it isn't even tech 2. So in this case he is very right.

Angels ships should be fast, minmatar ships also should be fast. But I still don't see any minmatar frig that is faster then an interceptor. So that excuse is also moot. Fact is the dram is to powerfull to be just a faction frig.


Your point is the moot one. All angel ships are faster than ALL other ships on same size. The cynabal is faster than the Vagabond! That is proof enough that CCP want angels to be faster. Machariel is faster than a Battlecruiser!

Following this simply logic.. Dramiel MUST be faster than an ANY interceptor.

That is their whole concept! The only thing relevant to raise is. HOW MUCH faster angels should be.....



No the point is that they are faster, tougher, and do more dps than interceptors. if they take away the drones it will be balanced;

T'Challa Wanakanda
Posted - 2010.02.18 11:16:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: T''Challa Wanakanda on 18/02/2010 11:17:32
Originally by: Ydyp Ieva
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Xing Fey
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/02/2010 22:51:54
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/02/2010 22:46:10
I continue to lol at "Faction interceptors shouldn't be faster than normal interceptors"


dramiel is not an interceptor, its a faction frigate.


Are you intentionally posting stupid stuff or does it just come naturally for you?

Mostly he isn't using much intelligent stuff to say something. But if you think a dram is a faction interceptor point me to the need of the skill interceptor to fly one? Oh wait you can't. So dram isn't an interceptor it isn't even tech 2. So in this case he is very right.

Angels ships should be fast, minmatar ships also should be fast. But I still don't see any minmatar frig that is faster then an interceptor. So that excuse is also moot. Fact is the dram is to powerfull to be just a faction frig.


Did you ever notice that faction mods have lower skill requirements than T2 mods? If you think of interceptors as T2 then the skill requirement is still in line with other faction vs T2 requisites in the game. (e.g. T2 hardener requires Hull Upgrades V => faction hardener requries Hull Upgrades III. Interceptors requires Frigate V => Dramiel requires Frigate III)

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.02.18 11:46:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 18/02/2010 11:46:50
Originally by: T'Challa Wanakanda

Did you ever notice that faction mods have lower skill requirements than T2 mods? If you think of interceptors as T2 then the skill requirement is still in line with other faction vs T2 requisites in the game. (e.g. T2 hardener requires Hull Upgrades V => faction hardener requries Hull Upgrades III. Interceptors requires Frigate V => Dramiel requires Frigate III)


You're right but it still does not make them T2. A faction Pulse Laser is not a T2 Laser (you cant use T2 crystals in them), the cynabal is not a HAC, hence, the dramiel is not an interceptor!!!
It is still a faction frigate, calling them an interceptor for justifying its imbalance is a fool!

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2010.02.18 12:11:00 - [55]
 

wouldnt mind a nerf to the dronebay

but the speed discussion is quite uncreative and with the new scramblers even more ridiculous than the one we had before/"during" the speed nerf.

the comparison to ceptors on speed and only speed isnt convincing either. for example is it 2-3x bigger than any ceptor. not only does this speed up locking and applying recon toys to their behinds but it also enables sniper cruisers, even battle ships, to volley them quite nicely while they're GTFO in a neat straight line.

nor does it have anything like the inty role bonus; running a warp disruptor with its 4cap/s consumption is hideous - let me know if you spotted my argumentation trap.


besides, one can always come up with something unexpected and just feed off the FotM idiots

Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2010.02.18 14:36:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 18/02/2010 14:44:34

NO. Eve has no and never had a problem with frigates. There are 1mio possible ways to kill a frigate, just do it. Did I say NO ? NO.

To support Roemy's statement:
Cargo cruiser vs. FOTM

Btw. Atm , Dramiel seems to be one of best ISK sinks in Eve.




Slade Hoo
Amarr
Retired Gunslingers
Posted - 2010.02.18 15:00:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks


Btw. Atm , Dramiel seems to be one of best ISK sinks in Eve.



Where exactly does the isk sink?

Right. Nowhere. Train some more economics before posting.

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2010.02.18 15:06:00 - [58]
 

I'd be ok with its speed if that was the defining trait of the ship.

But with the dramiel, its good short range, long range, high sensor strength, good sized drone bay, great EHP, great speed, etc. It has too much going for it. Look at something like the worm it has good EHP and a good drone bay. Dramiel on the other hand rocks in like 5 categories. Just too much IMHO. You could alternatively make it really fast but drop one of its mid slots, which would bring its EHP in line with a taranis rather than 2x a taranis at 2-3x the speed.

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2010.02.18 15:16:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Atreus Tac
Please can you state how the dram is better than a daredevil at kill frigs.

Please can you state how a dram can have any effect on a decent gang that a normal inty wouldn't have.

Please can you tell me how a dram can kill a cap ship solo. If the ship was fit in such a poor way then odds are alot of other frigs could kill it if a dram could.

Please can you tell me what a dram can do that is so overpowered when going 10km/s a second, bar of course the fact that it is going 10km/s.



1) Its much faster and more agile with a better lock speed.
2) It can make short work of all their inty's for one and has double to triple the EHP of your typical ceptor.
3) It can't.
4) Point is you can get it to 5km/s with 150-200+dps, 6.5k EHP and an insane lock speed. Also it gets tracking + falloff bonuses making it great for short range and long range. IE, its too good in too many categories.

Red zeon
Caldari
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2010.02.18 20:20:00 - [60]
 

you can counter the dramiel
todya i was in 00 solo
scrammed a deimos, but hes hammerheads hurted way too much
(scram and orbit at 5km with mwd)

and ittle later i scrammed a tengu in a haven, hes missiles didnt hurt at all, but when he changed to preision em missiles, dam they hurted, (got med shield extender on it) both in mwd and doin 800m/s withouy mwd,

tho the drones could have been able to fit artys and long orbit at nice speeds and popped em one by one.
and the tengu, if youd fit ab you could maybe tank that, prolly noy tho, was about 20% shield per volley when i was doin 800m/s


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