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Croix Kun
Posted - 2010.02.03 12:28:00 - [1]
 

First a few things:

1. I play for fun.
2. I prefer not to go for '100% optimalised skills & über expensive modules'
3. I am not a dedicated mission runner.
4. I do not run numbers - I do not use EFT - I do not use Battleclinic - I do not use EVE Monitor for Ship Fittings

I see a lot fittings about Golems with Torpedo's. But only a few with Cruise Missiles.

My questions are:
- In which missions are Torpedo's more useful then Cruise Missiles?
- Is it worth training Marauder 5?


I've been using the Golem since Januari 2008 (bought it for 650 mil). Before that I used the Raven Navy Issue with Cruise Missiles.

My current Cruise Missile Golem fitting is based on:

1) Huge Tank - I often get disconnected, I have no other choice then to make sure that whenever I disconnect, the Tank makes the Golem survive.
2) Omni Tank - I do all kinds of missions for different corporations for all Empire factions.
3) Range - I want to be able to shoot and kill at 100+ km range - not all NPC rats come in Torpedo's Range
4) Speed - I want to be able to Blitz - some missions require to destroy an NPC rat or structure at 100+ km range
5) Minimum Micro-Management - I want to press 2 or 3 buttons each time to kill a Rat and Tank
- F1 Missiles
- F2 Shield Booster (on/off)
- CTRL 1-2-3-4 Shield Hardeners and Damage Control (when I undock / Gate Jump)
- Right-Click Launch Drones for Frigates and Cruisers
- F8 Tractor Beam
6) Proper Aggression Management (using Mission Survival Website and 4 years experience)
7) A second account loots and salvages with a Cormorant.

4 Cruise Missile Launchers (T2 or Faction)
1 Tractor Beam
2 Drone Augmentor / 2 Salvager (Drones go 70km far)

1 X-L Shield Booster (T2 or Faction)
1 Shield Boost Amplifier (T2 or Faction)
3 Shield Hardeners (T2 or Faction)
2 Shield Extenders (T2, the faction one is crap)

3 Ballistic Control System (T2 or Faction)
1 Damage Control (T2)

2 Large Capacitor Control Circuit (T1 affordable, T2 is expensive)

5 Hammerhead (T2)
5 Hornet (T2)

I used to use a T2 Target Painter. The Marauder Bonus is really nice. But thing is, Cruise Missiles hit the targets just fine without a Target Painter.

Furthermore I use 5 Hardwiring Implants:
ZMU2000 +5% cruise missiles damage
ZML1000 +5% bonus to all missiles' maximum velocity
ZMA1000 +5% decreased factor of signature radius for light, heavy and cruise missile explosions
ZMS1000 +5% decrease in factor of target's velocity for all missiles
ZMM1000 +5% bonus to all missile launcher rate of fire

Skills:
BS5 / Marauder 4
Cruise Missiles 4
Torpedo 4
Guided Missile Projection 4
Missile Bombardment 5
Missile Launcher Operation 5
Missile Projection 4
Rapid Launch 5
Target Navigation Prediction 5
Warhead Upgrades 4

DuffmanPeter
Perpetua Umbra
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.02.03 13:15:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: DuffmanPeter on 03/02/2010 13:19:11
This has been discussed like a million times. I vote torpedoes since I use them with 2 tps and they rock. Cruise missiles are just boring and are worse is most missions. Some missions they are better with longer range but wait till you try torpedoes. When you 3 volley a bs in like 20 seconds, you will like them.

As for marauders 5 it is always worth it, just a choice of whether you have the 30+ days to spend training it. If you do then go ahead but you would be better off probably maxing missile support skills or other skills relative to torp golem.

This torp golem reich will last a thousand beers!!!

EDIT: I didnt read half the other crap you wrote but you put 2 much into this. The tank is great and lvl 4s are easy. Just use an xl booster, amp, 3 hardeners, and 2 tps. Also if you dont use 4 dmg mods in your lows then you are wasting your time. The only mission to ever give me trouble was when I agroed the whole serpentis room in worlds collide and I still was fine, just had to watch myself.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2010.02.03 14:47:00 - [3]
 

My High Sec mission runner:

[Golem, Hisec Lvl 4]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Target Painter II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Take advantage of the Golem's Target Painting bonus. Use with Fury cruise missiles. I use cruise over torps because I don't have the patience to wait for targets to get into range. In my opinion, torps are severely handicapped.

Fury cruise range, on the other hand, extends to beyond 200 KM, which is a ridiculous amount.

Why can't there be an in-between range with an in-between damage missile? There is room for it. Something that can go as far as 100 KM and do damage between what a cruise missile does and what a torp does.

As it stands it's either ridiculous range with wet-paper damage or ridiculous damage with severely handicapped range. It's a shame no one has figured this out yet.


lil Ghork
Posted - 2010.02.03 15:00:00 - [4]
 

To answer Croix Kun.

Torpedos are more usefull in general, but not for you.

Reason beeing is that you need a strong tank that can permarun since disconnect at random. Torps should be used with 3 painters, and those 3 painters wont provide enough tank for that scenario.

Yes train Marauder 5, unless you got something better to train for, if you have all support skills etc. then go for it.

I made a setup for you, made it omnitank as well since you asked for it, although you can make it a lot cheaper using specific hardeners.

Instead of investing in this ship i'd rather invest in a different ISP and run a torp golem, but this should do nicely for you.

[Golem, Permarun/omni(ONLY FOR DISCONNECTERS EVERYONE ELSE USE TORPS AND 3 PAINTERS!!!!!!!!)]
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Large Shield Booster II
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Photon Scattering Field II
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II




CrazySpaceHobo
Caldari
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.02.03 15:22:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Croix Kun

4 Cruise Missile Launchers (T2 or Faction)
1 Tractor Beam
2 Drone Augmentor / 2 Salvager (Drones go 70km far)

1 X-L Shield Booster (T2 or Faction)
1 Shield Boost Amplifier (T2 or Faction)
3 Shield Hardeners (T2 or Faction)
2 Shield Extenders (T2, the faction one is crap)

3 Ballistic Control System (T2 or Faction)
1 Damage Control (T2)

2 Large Capacitor Control Circuit (T1 affordable, T2 is expensive)

5 Hammerhead (T2)
5 Hornet (T2)



Next time, use EFT. You're mixing tanks there with those extenders and they'll do nothing/very little. You're better off replacing them with a TP or Cap rechargers.

Also, torp golem works better.

Kenpotchi
Posted - 2010.02.03 15:43:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Kenpotchi on 03/02/2010 15:44:36
Well your problem lies with not having Torpedo skill to lvl 5.

[Golem, Mission Runner]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Photon Scattering Field II
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

I. Skills needed to make torpedos work
A. Missile Bombardment 5 - 10% to missile flight time per lvl
B. Missile Projection 5 - 10% to missile velocity per lvl
C. Missile Rigging of at least 1 - To fit riggs for flight time and velocity
D. Cybernetics to 5 - to fit all the implants.
E. Marauders of at least 4 - Any thing lower is a waist of time

II. Implants to make the Golem work.
A. Zainou 'Snapshot' ZMT2000 - 5% increase to torpedo damage
B. Zainou 'Deadeye' ZML1000 - 5% increase to missile velocity
C. Zainou 'Deadeye' ZMS1000 - 5% increase to explosion velocity
D. Zainou 'Deadeye' ZMM1000 - 5% increase to launcher rate of fire
E. Crystals - We know what they do. Not manditory

III. What these skills and implants do to make torpedos work.
A. Standard torps have a range of 42km with 966 DPS
B. Javelin torps have a range of 63km with 870 DPS

IV. Stats
A. 68,328 EHP (you can switch a BCU for a DCU sence you DC alot)
B. 76EM 74THERM 78KIN 79EXPLO
D. Cap will last 4m 8s (I rarely come close to caping out)
C. 1125 DPS including Hammerhead IIs

V. My thoughts and opinions

Three target painters is over kill. With my own experience I 2-3 volley all BS, 1 volley all BC, 1 volley all cruisers but Angel cruisers ans some "elite" cruisers, for frigs and those "elite" cruisers I personally use drones. My process on mission running is kill cruisers and battle cruisers as they close range with javs or if they are at range I use normal torps. I only loot and salvage BS. This is just me. On missions such as worlds collide were you have to travel I use cruise missiles and a AB. I normally tractor every thing to me at the enterence to the mission/rooms and use a salvage boat.

I hope this clarifies why torps are some what favored over cruise.

Edit:

I use faction BCUs (Caldari Navy), faction TPs (Republic Navy), and T2 riggs. These greatly improve some areas of to ship.


lil Ghork
Posted - 2010.02.03 15:53:00 - [7]
 

kenpochi notice how he wrote

"1) Huge Tank - I often get disconnected, I have no other choice then to make sure that whenever I disconnect, the Tank makes the Golem survive."

yours runs out 2 fast in case of that, thus you needa drop the tp's thus you needa shift over to cruise

SupaKudoRio
Posted - 2010.02.03 16:10:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 03/02/2010 16:26:37
Javelin torpedoes, with a proper fit, can reach 60km. I don't think there are any common mission NPCs that orbit beyond about 50 (with a few exceptions).

You won't be able to get half a Golem's full potential with a fit for 'perma' tanking... If you're worried about losing connection and getting asploded, fit a damage control (it nearly doubles your ehp) and kill warp scrambling rats first. Your ship will emergency warp when you lose connection.

DuffmanPeter
Perpetua Umbra
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.02.03 16:23:00 - [9]
 

Kenpotchi's fit is just about mine. If you really do disconnect a lot as you mentioned, then you may as well stick with your current fit. Only problem with torp fit is you also have to switch a couple implants meaning pretty big costs for 5% ones. You could also try using faction or deadspace medium booster if you have to be capstable and want to use torps. It will lower your tank though.

Also for rats orbiting, the farthest is some guristas, which orbit at about 53km that I have found so far. You should be fine with your skills and may not even need the implants for the extra range, but it is nice to have.

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2010.02.03 17:16:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Exlegion

Why can't there be an in-between range with an in-between damage missile? There is room for it. Something that can go as far as 100 KM and do damage between what a cruise missile does and what a torp does.

As it stands it's either ridiculous range with wet-paper damage or ridiculous damage with severely handicapped range. It's a shame no one has figured this out yet.




There used to be. They were called Torpedoes, before the buff. They used to reach out to 120km or so, without rigs and did about 30% less damage than they do now. Then a couple years ago CCP realized that cruise were worthless and no one used them. So they buffed torpedo damage by 33% (I think they actually reduced the launcher's RoF) but slashed their range by 2/3rds. So instead of having 1 high damage high range weapon, and 1 wet noodle damage massive range weapon they changed it to: 1 massive damage, wet noodle range, and one wet noodle damage massive range.

Kenpotchi
Posted - 2010.02.03 17:36:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: lil Ghork
kenpochi notice how he wrote

"1) Huge Tank - I often get disconnected, I have no other choice then to make sure that whenever I disconnect, the Tank makes the Golem survive."

yours runs out 2 fast in case of that, thus you needa drop the tp's thus you needa shift over to cruise


Torps kill the DPS of the missions faster then cruise. A dead rat cant deal DPS.

As for the disconnect problem.....

Do you have cable internet or DSL?
Are you using wireless instead of directly plugging in to your router?

I personally have cable internet service and I use wireless and I hardly ever get disconnected. Maybe your problem lies some were in there.

Sprilk
Posted - 2010.02.03 18:13:00 - [12]
 

Torps are better by far...

But if you need a tank thats cap stable and massive (incase you drop right at the start of an area) your going to have to reduce your target painter amount,

I am not sure when cruiser beat torps for time (with reduced painters) but i can make you a tank thats 2 painters and cap stable and gives you an ab.. it should tank everything.

The first fit is 2 painters and an ab... its not cap stable with the ab on... so if you crash with it on you got problems well 6min to reconect but thats at full cap... so way less then that.

[Golem, perma dual tank]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Cap Recharger II
Domination 100MN Afterburner

Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

This next fit is a 3 target painters, but no ab... its cap stable and should tank everything.

[Golem, perma dual tank no ab]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Cap Recharger II
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Now as a side note both of these fittings are for we skilled pilots (my missile skills are all 5). and they both require high grade crystals (i have a low grade omega but the rest high grade). furthermore the only mission i have not been able to perma tank in that tank is AE bonus room, it requires overheat and fast killing. now i give you these setups, they are derivatives of my setup, and since i dont try and perma tank anything i am not 100% that they do since i kill incomeing dps so quickly half the time i dont turn on the booster. but i am fairly sure that this should be crash friendly, they are cap stable even with full tractor and salvage on. if it cant perma tank them... it most likely will last for a very long time enough for you to reconeect thats for sure.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.02.03 18:17:00 - [13]
 

I was going to say get a torp golem, and a cruise cnr, use the appropriate ship for the job, but for your requirements probably fine just keeping what you have even if it isn't the "best" fit.

and really, the pithum booster is just a suicide gank magnet

Skykilla
Posted - 2010.03.13 04:31:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
I was going to say get a torp golem, and a cruise cnr, use the appropriate ship for the job, but for your requirements probably fine just keeping what you have even if it isn't the "best" fit.

and really, the pithum booster is just a suicide gank magnet


exactly so keep your fits to yourselves and stop broadcasting your specs to potential pirates.

just dont bother with torps unless you can fit t2 javelins. basically greengimp's fit on battleclinic is awesome. maybe you will be suicide ganked. but you'll make isk so fast that it will be worth it. besides all you have to do is survive till concord shows up and DONT FIRE BACK!


Sigaar
Posted - 2010.03.13 08:52:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Sigaar on 13/03/2010 09:04:36

Quote:
This has been discussed like a million times. I vote torpedoes since I use them with 2 tps and they rock.

According to Maths double TP torp Golem will get outperformed by cruise golem almost on every mission. Only viable option is 3 TPs and even then it will ruin your performance on around 30% missions thus making overall isk / hour lower unless you swap ships.

Needless to say that 3 TPs require quite expensive tank since you are tanking with 4 mids. Keep in mind that you wont have AB as well.

Quote:
besides all you have to do is survive till concord shows up

Do you know the meaning of suicide gank and how it is done?
1. Stealth prober shows up and check what mission you are doing. Lets say its vs guristas.
2. 5 Torp Ravens with tackler warp to 0 with something like Mjonir Rage torpedoes.
3. Alpha. You are dead.

Concord kill those 5 ravens, they get +1b to 4b - 5*100 on their killboard and prober loots your corpse for extra 1b or so.

Xing Fey
Posted - 2010.03.13 10:30:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Sigaar
Edited by: Sigaar on 13/03/2010 09:04:36

Quote:
This has been discussed like a million times. I vote torpedoes since I use them with 2 tps and they rock.

According to Maths double TP torp Golem will get outperformed by cruise golem almost on every mission. Only viable option is 3 TPs and even then it will ruin your performance on around 30% missions thus making overall isk / hour lower unless you swap ships.

Needless to say that 3 TPs require quite expensive tank since you are tanking with 4 mids. Keep in mind that you wont have AB as well.

Quote:
besides all you have to do is survive till concord shows up

Do you know the meaning of suicide gank and how it is done?
1. Stealth prober shows up and check what mission you are doing. Lets say its vs guristas.
2. 5 Torp Ravens with tackler warp to 0 with something like Mjonir Rage torpedoes.
3. Alpha. You are dead.

Concord kill those 5 ravens, they get +1b to 4b - 5*100 on their killboard and prober loots your corpse for extra 1b or so.


It's gonna take a lot more than 5 ravens to suicide gank a golem...

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.03.13 10:58:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Xing Fey
It's gonna take a lot more than 5 ravens to suicide gank a golem...
well that all depends on how the golem is fit. YARRRR!!

the 2 cn invlun golem has just over 51k ehp against em damage.

2 cn invlun, 1 em, has 67-71k ehp.

so on a 4 bcu II, 6 seige II raven:

a rage torp volley does a bit over 6k and with torp spec 4 and overload launchers cycle in a bit under 5s. in most sec that lets you get off 2 volleys so 72,000/12,000 = 6. alright so it takes 6 ravens to gank a golem.

but if you catch them in mission and can put them in armor/hull plus neut them it should be easy for the rats to finish the job. hell it might only take 2 ravens.

(oh if they are spec tanked an have an em hole that brings the ehp down to a bit under 38k. and that doesn't count taking advantage of the exp hole on their armor. hell might be able to do it with 3 ravens in that case)

Khin'charin
Incidental Damage
Posted - 2010.03.13 12:27:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sigaar
According to Maths double TP torp Golem will get outperformed by cruise golem almost on every mission.

What maths are those?


 

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