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SnK Peel
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.30 14:55:00 - [1]
 

Stated from the CCP reimbursement page-

'Losses caused due to disconnection as a direct result of a server node drop or an unannounced server downtime may be reimbursed pending investigation by, and at the discretion of, a GM. Ships lost due to lag or non-server related disconnection will not be reimbursed.'

Lag, I'd like a definition of what CCP refer to as 'lag'.

A small time delay in your actions ?, sure, i guess thats more than acceptable in alot of situations. Even a more lenghy time delay, say upto a minute, yes i guess that would be conciderd more of a severe lag, But I mean as long as you still have a little bit of time to send an action and wait for it to receive / activate (turn on a modual, MWD, Repper, Hardner etc) or even attemp to guide your ship in a general direction such as a stargate, either towards or away from, or even try to 'warp out'. I do agree as long as you have options such as these, regardless if their is a small or large time delay you still have a relivate control over your vessel / pod thus having the options to make a decision to defend yourself or try to escape death, this i do belive does NOT deserve reimbursement.

Altho, when you are caught up in something more extreme, as in you try to enter a grid / system and nothing happens for 30+ minutes, and i mean nothing, you cannot see celestial objects such as planets or moons, brackets that resemble something (such as an asteroid belts, star gates) or anything that you would normally see, And i do mean see nothing, overview showed the words 'nothing found' you cannot see your friends or your foes, or even your own ship for that matter. I'm talking about a completely blank screen for more than 30+ minutes and in alot of cases even more than that. It is ludicrous to think that CCP can lable this kind of problem as a form 'lag'.

Now, when you experince this you may aswell concider yourself already dead. with no options, DEAD, you cannot do anything to try to defend yourself in any way. As i stated in the first paragraph, If you can do these things (as in having even the slightest control) i do belive thats a case of lag and no reimbursement should be given, Altho if you experince what i describe in paragraph 2, I would call it a bug or failure rather than what CCP refer to it as a 'lag'. Then in this case i do belive you should be intitled to a reimbursement.

If you 'petition' your loss under these conditions CCP will most likeley reply with the message-

'It is impossible for us to measure how much lag each person has and even harder to verify which losses were the result of lag and which losses were legitimate. Reimbursing losses from large battles due to possible lag which is unverifiable from our end, would in essence mean removing the risk of loss from fleet battles entirely and thereby nullify their whole purpose.

I am sorry that we cannot assist you and I hope you understand our stance on this matter.'

And i can completely understand that, BUT this bit 'which is unverifiable from our end' i do disagree with this. As far as i know, CCP have recorded logs of all actions made by players, because every player has his / her own unique ID, And with this im more than sure CCP have a method of 'filtering' out a single persons actions and viewing that one log and every aciton that person has made. In doing this you should beable to see for example what time the person 'enterd the system' for example lets say on the log it says 21:04:33 (the time the made that action) and lets say no other actions were made for 8 minutes or so then they look at the recoded log and it shows a ship destruction at 21:12:33, An 8 minute gap, with absolutly no activity what so ever. was the person controling the ship just sitting there, making no actions?, No attempt to save him/her self from the aggressor? Common sense tells us that this person was totaly unable to do anyhitng and most likely spent the entire time waiting for something to load, This in my opinion

SnK Peel
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.30 15:00:00 - [2]
 

(cont from above.)

Does deserve a reimbursement, Just nor another quick example lets say the perosn enters system / grid at 21:04:33 then at 21:05:12 locks a target, 21:05:16 activated several moduals, :21:06:01 activates a repair modual etc etc, these are obvious actions that the player had control over his ship and that that a GM can see this by reading the logs.

In my opinion latter example of not being able to do anyhitng in any way what so ever deserves a reimbursement because there is no way of doing anyhitng to defend yourself / prevent yourself from being killed and that in my opinion is NOT fair, That is NOT legitimate game mechanics and your game is NOT supposed to work like this (altho you do advertise like that in promo videos !!? but this is not about advertisement).

Now before anyone tries to tell me that the issue of frozen screens due to extreme system overloads cannot be fixed 'just like that', i DO understand the soloution of solving this problem is a very hard one and will take alot of time and dedication untill CCP can reahc an acceptable level. This is nothing to do with the lag / freezing problem. This is to do with CCP refusing to reimburse under these conditions, which is wrong, Especially since we are paying customers this is in no way how it should be.

Alot of people say 'just relax, take some time calm down. Get yourself back out there and get a new ship + fittings and try again next time' NO!, Not everyone has the spare time to play this game long enough to do such things. Lets say you only have a few hours spare a week to play, you spend 9 months scrapping the 'ISK' together to buy a nice ship (in my personal case it was a 1.8 billion ISK dreadnaught), And all is lost due to this horirble factor and CCP just say 'no we cant tell if its legit or not'. This is totaly out of order, saying 'just go get another one', You should be putting the time and effort into these petitions and investigating the logs to try to prove if a ship was a legit loss or not!. No one should have to do all the work over if they lost there ship in this way.

In my opinion CCP are extremely happy just to say to us 'no reimbursement', 'go do the work all over again', Aslong as we continue to pay subscriptions! Well CCP you are out of order to say that. Untill you have fixed the freezes in big fights you should be putting the time and effort into each petition and look at the facts, statistics and logs and THEN try to judge if it was legit or not, rather than just copy and paste the same useless message over and over that no one wants to hear. We pay you to do your job so why dont you start putting some effort in and do your job.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.01.30 15:01:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: SnK Peel

And i can completely understand that, BUT this bit 'which is unverifiable from our end' i do disagree with this. As far as i know, CCP have recorded logs of all actions made by players, because every player has his / her own unique ID, And with this im more than sure CCP have a method of 'filtering' out a single persons actions and viewing that one log and every aciton that person has made. In doing this you should beable to see for example what time the person 'enterd the system' for example lets say on the log it says 21:04:33 (the time the made that action) and lets say no other actions were made for 8 minutes or so then they look at the recoded log and it shows a ship destruction at 21:12:33, An 8 minute gap, with absolutly no activity what so ever. was the person controling the ship just sitting there, making no actions?, No attempt to save him/her self from the aggressor? Common sense tells us that this person was totaly unable to do anyhitng and most likely spent the entire time waiting for something to load.


Or they mashed jump and then got up to go the bathroom and got popped while they were having a ****.

How is CCP supposed to know which?

SnK Peel
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.30 15:21:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: SnK Peel

And i can completely understand that, BUT this bit 'which is unverifiable from our end' i do disagree with this. As far as i know, CCP have recorded logs of all actions made by players, because every player has his / her own unique ID, And with this im more than sure CCP have a method of 'filtering' out a single persons actions and viewing that one log and every aciton that person has made. In doing this you should beable to see for example what time the person 'enterd the system' for example lets say on the log it says 21:04:33 (the time the made that action) and lets say no other actions were made for 8 minutes or so then they look at the recoded log and it shows a ship destruction at 21:12:33, An 8 minute gap, with absolutly no activity what so ever. was the person controling the ship just sitting there, making no actions?, No attempt to save him/her self from the aggressor? Common sense tells us that this person was totaly unable to do anyhitng and most likely spent the entire time waiting for something to load.


Or they mashed jump and then got up to go the bathroom and got popped while they were having a ****.

How is CCP supposed to know which?



The only time these instances ocour is when large fleet warefare happens, and when you are in large fleet warfare and you just tried to enter the 'fight' you dont go and have a '****'. Common sense will tell you this, and hopefully CCP will start reading their logs in more depth to try and figure out which are real or not.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2010.01.30 15:24:00 - [5]
 

I love assumption based proposals.... make for a good laugh.


Oh and I don't deny the problem... but your assuming a great deal here.

Not supporting.

SnK Peel
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.30 15:32:00 - [6]
 

the only thing i really assumed is that CCP have recorded logs of all acitons made, but it owuld make no sense if they did not, every player that makes an action is recorded via that players unique ID for example that ID looks somehting like

(player name)l > <b><url=showinfo:1373//1173009641>S(player name)</url></b>

The long number is the player ID, and as far as i know CCP can just find all logs made by that player. hence judging if they player was active during the time of his loss or not.


Larkonis TrassIer
State Breast Inspectorate
Posted - 2010.01.30 16:13:00 - [7]
 

Lag is a well known phenomenon amongst the player base and it's effects are pretty well documented. If you are not compos mentis enough to realise that jumping 200 capitals into an already strained system with around 800 in system and already loaded is going to end in tears then you should probably try a simpler game like pong.

Everybody knows about lag and if you are deliberately exposing yourself to such a situation then you deserve all you get.

Arra Lith
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.30 16:48:00 - [8]
 

This definetly needs to be classified as bug and something should be implemented to avoid this.
Easiest thing would be to just make invulnerable all ships entering system (jumping in / entering game) until they succesfully load system. As long as they are in progress of 'loading...' they cannot be targeted - same as players who initiated warp cannot be locked. As soon as they enter system appriopriate message is sent to server and ship is valid target for attacks.

Elymi
Posted - 2010.01.30 16:56:00 - [9]
 

We only tryed top play the Dominion-Trailer. Something went wrong....

SnK Peel
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.30 17:04:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Lag is a well known phenomenon amongst the player base and it's effects are pretty well documented. If you are not compos mentis enough to realise that jumping 200 capitals into an already strained system with around 800 in system and already loaded is going to end in tears then you should probably try a simpler game like pong.

Everybody knows about lag and if you are deliberately exposing yourself to such a situation then you deserve all you get.


So what you are trying to say is the way sov wareware should be played is, first in system wins ?. I do argee with the player sbeing invunerable untill fully loaded, sounds like a fairly good idea, at least that way you have a chance

Cpt AngelNova
Amarr
Licentia Ex Vereor
Posted - 2010.01.30 17:10:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Cpt AngelNova on 30/01/2010 17:16:55
Edited by: Cpt AngelNova on 30/01/2010 17:14:50
People are looking at this the wrong way.

What CCP should realize is that they are reaching a limit, ever noticed how problems starts to show in various regions accros the server when it gets over 50K user count ?

yet despite this CCP continues to market their game as much as possible just look at the dominion changes and the dominion trailer, CCP markets and encourages 0.0 wars, yet if you attempt the real thing the server falls over, time and time again.

0.0 wars are really simple now because of these problems. 1st one in with numbers wins the system

This problem can only get worse as the player base grows and it will.
More and more petitions will plague CCP as their customers tries to enjoy eve but cant because of ever growing problems that affects everyone at once.
Think of it as a small town that crew into a city...then think of those narrow roads that once worked perfectly in the past but is now gridlocked

CCP HELMAR, you know what im talking about, i watched you in some promotional video during the alliance tournament where you talked about how EvE outgrew far beyond what you imagined. you gave us something great, and every EvE player thanks you for it as you bring us hours of entertainment. Lets keep it that way

Dont be too quick to put the blame on blob wars, its something that WILL happen, when your defending or attacking a system you go in with force.

If CCP refuses to address these petitions then i ask that they atleast tell us how hard they are working behind the scenes on a coding/hardware level.

To Conclude

I love the dominion changes, i really do, the new planets and features are AWESOME and i mean it. But you must remember you cant continue to construct new levels on a building without reinforcing its foundation.



Larkonis TrassIer
State Breast Inspectorate
Posted - 2010.01.30 17:33:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: SnK Peel
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Lag is a well known phenomenon amongst the player base and it's effects are pretty well documented. If you are not compos mentis enough to realise that jumping 200 capitals into an already strained system with around 800 in system and already loaded is going to end in tears then you should probably try a simpler game like pong.

Everybody knows about lag and if you are deliberately exposing yourself to such a situation then you deserve all you get.


So what you are trying to say is the way sov wareware should be played is, first in system wins ?. I do argee with the player sbeing invunerable untill fully loaded, sounds like a fairly good idea, at least that way you have a chance



No, what I'm saying is that there are known problems with Dominion (also from my understanding about that particular engagement you were already in system but chose to give up that advantage by ragejumping out, I digress, CAOD -> that way). If you want to fight in these conditions then you have to accept the consequences of doing so. There are also several methods and workarounds for combating particularly nasty and laggy grid/system loading issues.

I'm not saying it's perfect but if you are deliberately exposing yourself to these conditions then you should not have your ship reimbursed. I've died to lag a couple of times without getting a shot off. It's frustrating but I took it on the chin and realised that I knew what I was getting into.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2010.01.30 17:56:00 - [13]
 

For once... I agree with lark.

Putting yourself in harms way for the sake of emo-raging over a problem is beating a dead horse.

Yes we know there's a problem... get back in line along with the other hundreds of complaints.

CCP will get to it when they will get to it.

Demanding reimbursement is just adding insult to injury.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.01.30 18:12:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: darius mclever on 30/01/2010 18:19:19
not supported.

after atlas vs WI., PL/Goons vs IT in y-2 you pulled that stunt.
iirc PL didnt get their titans reimbursed either.

just in case you want to try the stunt again. maybe talk to NC how to cyno in a fleet without blackscreening and dying.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.01.30 19:10:00 - [15]
 

Not that I disagree as such, but a better solution is for CCP to figure whatever they did to break the servers in the Dominion patch and undo it so that we can have semi-playable fights in the first place.

Its not like CCP can reimburse the hours of our lives we all spend staring at a black screen, which is arguably more valuable than our pretend dead internet spaceships anyway.

Ch'taiae
Posted - 2010.02.01 15:41:00 - [16]
 

Two points:

The most important is that CCP truly does not have the logs you think they do. Take a step back and think: what machine is responsible for taking logs? That's right, its the machine that's coughing and wheezing. When it comes to multi-machine simulations like MMOs, there is no single timeline that is "true," all of them simply have degrees of truth to them.

Second, it is in CCP's STRONGEST interests to not admit to the lag problem that every single 0.0 player knows exists. They have to control the PR, and the last thing they need is people making blog posts and quoting a GM about how their ship got reimbursed so there's clearly a problem.

Now what I still cannot figure out is why they cannot emulate this effect. Unless the issues are coming from upstream of them (i.e. they're not buying enough bandwidth for their own good), these battle problems should be 100% reproducible, and this SHOULD be in their ticket log as a "blocker" because it is basically undermining our faith in the feasibility of playing the game.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.02.01 17:48:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 01/02/2010 17:49:03
I don't really think this should be a terribly difficult thing. If one pilot mashes jump then goes to plug their john for the next half hour instead of playing Eve, sure, don't reimburse. It was obvious because it was only one player.

But it is a big stretch to say that an entire fleet collectively took a dump together. I mean, if the server logs show that 500 people jumped into a system and proceeded to not play the game for the next half hour, I think the lost ships should be reimbursed at that point.

The logs have the facts in this situation (unlike other strange "mechanics" that had deserved reimbursement but could not be proved in the past). It is the huge, gaping, black hole of nothing happening that should flag the situation.

Muppets Biatch
Posted - 2010.02.01 23:44:00 - [18]
 

I lost 3 fleet BS's in this manner.
I have started calling it the Black Screen of Death.

This is how it rolls for me:
Jump into system - stare at a black screen for 10 - wtf maybe lag - 20 seconds extreme lag, unacceptable lag - 30 seconds - check is my pc working - ctrl-alt-esc - taskmgr loaded - yes its working - check cpu usage - negligable 23% total - 90% on 1 of the four cores - check network activity - minimal - <1% useage on 8 meg dsl - Wait 5 mins - nothing - wait 15 mins - nothing - wait 30 mins - close client - try to log back in - black screen - reboot pc - log in - have been pod death to a station.

reship - repeat
next day
Buy a new ship - repeat

petition filed - same reply (as you mentioned)
I complained and recieved a rehasing of the first reply including the words our logs show our servers wernt lagging at the time you mentioned - you must expect lag in fleet battles.

30 Minuites LAG!!!! WTF!!!!!!! Its Client lag my A$%. DID YOU EVEN READ MY PETITION OR DID YOU HAVE SO DAMN MANY U JUST COPY PASTED THE WE COULDNT GIVE A CRAP REPLY?

Calmed down a little........

.....then a little more

Filed a new petition asking for my money back as the game clearly isnt fit for purpose - it simply dosent work. I am yet to recieve a response and its been well over a week. Im not holding my breath.

When my subscription runs out I wont be renewing. What a farce!

MuppetsSlayed
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.02.01 23:51:00 - [19]
 

was supposed to post that under my main - grr fail

SupaKudoRio
Posted - 2010.02.02 00:56:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 02/02/2010 00:57:03
Why the node doesn't place a player on a grid AFTER all data has been processed and sent is one hell of a mystery, eh? Smile

These instances are actually server failure, not lag, as the required information seems to end up never getting sent to the client. Formulate petitions as such. "Lag" is a keyword quickly picked out of the petition and given a default response by the bot CCP uses.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.02.02 01:04:00 - [21]
 


Zibu 81
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2010.02.02 01:59:00 - [22]
 

So you've got 2 options:

1. As it is now, and as it was ever since beginning of eve - you either jump into system risking black screen (where you can do some steps to minimize the lag effect) and accepting that you can die before you can do anything,

or your proposal:

2. Every time you need to defend a system, you jump every man and his dog onto a node until it crashes and CCP reimburses all your loses while doing so.

It's a widely known fact, that you get lagged out even to a point where you can't do anything if you try logging in or jumping into a system that's already overloaded.

It's been like that since day 1. It got a bit better in last couple patches but then something broke again in Dominion. But it's also been a CCP policy, that they don't reimburse losses in large fleet fights, as if you jump into one you should know that the server may not handle that and you may end up lagged out.


 

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