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blankseplocked Trading / buy order question
 
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J'J'J'Jita
Ch'Ch'Ch'Chia Corp
Posted - 2010.01.28 03:55:00 - [1]
 

I notice that when I'm selling cheap mission items at a local agent station, like say a limited social adaptation chip (meta 1, +1 charisma), sometimes they are sold for 95% under average regional market value. This led to some questions in my mind:

1. Who buys items from your character -- always other players, or do NPCs buy things too? If you try to sell an item at a station and no player buy orders exist for it there, what happens?

2. When a player trader places a buy order for an item, do they have to place these orders at each individual station one-by-one? Or do skills exist so that they can create one mass buy order that takes the same action at all stations across a region? It seems like it would take forever to place orders at stations one-by-one.

3. What do people do with these low-value items (like the limited social adaptation chip) that they buy for cheap? Reprocess to minerals? Take them to Jita and sell? Is it even worth it to make a trip to a system to pick up one of these chips that are worth so little in the first place?

Thanks!

Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2010.01.28 04:09:00 - [2]
 

1) NPC's rarely buy things. You can recognize an NPC market order (buy and sell) by an expiration date of 364 days (players can only create ones up to 90 days). When you sell something you can choose to take the best offer in that station or you can set a price and see if another player will buy it from you. It is the latter example that creates most of the sell orders that you have bought your stuff from.

2) Anyone (no skills required) can create a buy order with any range (up to region) that they want. Skills are only required if you want your buy order to by centered in a station other than the one where you are currently docked. It is the buyer, not the seller, who sets which stations are covered by the order.

3) Most likely with the implants they resell them. That might involve shipping it to Jita (or another trade hub) or it might not. With the right skill (Marketing) it is possible to put the item up for sale without every going to that station. For example, buy at 95% under average regional market price, resell at 50% under average regional market price: it might not be as much profit as could be had shipping it back to a trade hub, but it is also a lot less work.


If you want to start trading stuff yourself, you should know the first rule of the market place: best price wins. It is impossible to buy from anything other than the lowest priced sell order in a station. It is impossible to sell to anything other than the highest price buy order in a station. It does not matter which order you select on the market window when trying to complete the transaction. If someone has you out bid, you need change your price or wait for their order to fill before anyone can sell to your order.

J'J'J'Jita
Ch'Ch'Ch'Chia Corp
Posted - 2010.01.28 17:37:00 - [3]
 

First, thanks for the detailed reply. It helped. I still have a couple questions...

Originally by: Ki Tarra
1) NPC's rarely buy things. You can recognize an NPC market order (buy and sell) by an expiration date of 364 days (players can only create ones up to 90 days). When you sell something you can choose to take the best offer in that station or you can set a price and see if another player will buy it from you. It is the latter example that creates most of the sell orders that you have bought your stuff from.


If you're not looking at the detailed market view, but only right clicking on an item to sell it without even opening the market first... is there any way to tell who's buying it? Also, at some stations there are no buy orders listed for a specific item, but you can obviously instantly sell any item at any station. What's up with that?


Quote:

2) Anyone (no skills required) can create a buy order with any range (up to region) that they want. Skills are only required if you want your buy order to by centered in a station other than the one where you are currently docked. It is the buyer, not the seller, who sets which stations are covered by the order.


Hmm, but say I want to buy veldspar. If I want to have this buy order at 20 stations, I have to go through the process of creating+placing the buy order 20 times? I can't just create a mass buy order in one big click? Seems tedious.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.01.28 18:29:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 28/01/2010 18:30:37
Originally by: J'J'J'Jita
If you're not looking at the detailed market view, but only right clicking on an item to sell it without even opening the market first... is there any way to tell who's buying it?

No. You have to look at the market detail. Or check your transactions log after the fact.

Quote:
Also, at some stations there are no buy orders listed for a specific item, but you can obviously instantly sell any item at any station. What's up with that?

Buy orders have a range. They can limited to a station, or cover the entire region. The HIGHEST buy order that is in range applies.

Quote:
Hmm, but say I want to buy veldspar. If I want to have this buy order at 20 stations, I have to go through the process of creating+placing the buy order 20 times? I can't just create a mass buy order in one big click? Seems tedious.

It is if you are buying from multiple regions. If you are just buying in 20 systems in the same region, there are skills for that so you don't have to move.

I have a blockade runner, and I go to all the major trade hubs every week or so to update my orders.


Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2010.01.28 18:46:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: J'J'J'Jita
If you're not looking at the detailed market view, but only right clicking on an item to sell it without even opening the market first... is there any way to tell who's buying it?
To tell for certain if it is a player or an NPC you would need to look at the market details. However, you can make an educated guess: if it is not a Trade Good, then the buyer is another player, with very few exceptions. You cannot tell which player is buying the item until after you complete the transaction.
Originally by: J'J'J'Jita
Also, at some stations there are no buy orders listed for a specific item, but you can obviously instantly sell any item at any station. What's up with that?
Buy orders have a range that is set by the buyer. If you are within range, their buy order applies to that station. Generally the orders that apply to your current station are highlighted in green on the market details list.
Originally by: J'J'J'Jita
Hmm, but say I want to buy veldspar. If I want to have this buy order at 20 stations, I have to go through the process of creating+placing the buy order 20 times? I can't just create a mass buy order in one big click? Seems tedious.
If you want to buy veldspar at any station within X jumps, simply press the "Place Buy Order" button at the bottom of the market details window, and select the range of X Jumps. Your order will then apply to every station within the specified range of that central station.

If you are docked at the central station you do not need any skills to place the order. If you are not docked at the station you will need the skill Visibility.

If you do not want to include all stations within the specified range, you must create individual orders in each station. As you pointed out, doing so is tedious, so most people would use the ranged orders or trade in a trade hub station.

Sarajo
Posted - 2010.01.28 21:28:00 - [6]
 

Excellent information in the topic. However you said that 'obviously anything can instantly be sold at any station'. This is false. If there are no players or NPCs that have oustanding buy orders for that item, you will not be able to sell it and you will get an appropriate popup telling you so.

Marine HK4861
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2010.01.28 22:01:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Marine HK4861 on 28/01/2010 22:01:30
Originally by: Ki Tarra

If you are docked at the central station you do not need any skills to place the order. If you are not docked at the station you will need the skill Visibility.



I think Ki Tarra had a minor memory lapse - the skill you'll need is Procurement. Visibility is used for setting a range on remote orders set up with Procurement.

Edit: Fixed linking

Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2010.01.28 22:22:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Marine HK4861
I think Ki Tarra had a minor memory lapse
I was talking about creating a remote buy order with a range other than station; therefore I was refering to the correct skill.

But, yes, Procurement is all that you need if the range on your remote buy order is limited to station.

J'J'J'Jita
Ch'Ch'Ch'Chia Corp
Posted - 2010.01.28 23:53:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sarajo
Excellent information in the topic. However you said that 'obviously anything can instantly be sold at any station'. This is false. If there are no players or NPCs that have oustanding buy orders for that item, you will not be able to sell it and you will get an appropriate popup telling you so.


Really? I have not seen that yet (admittedly I'm new), even with all the random worthless junk I've sold. Interesting.

NPCs seem to buy at fair prices, while players sometimes buy at 1% of avg regional cost. Players can't undercut NPCs, right? If there is a NPC buy order and a player buy order, the highest buy price wins, not the player? It seems like NPCs have a rather limited range of things they buy.

Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2010.01.29 01:47:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Ki Tarra on 29/01/2010 01:48:27
Originally by: J'J'J'Jita
NPCs seem to buy at fair prices, while players sometimes buy at 1% of avg regional cost. Players can't undercut NPCs, right? If there is a NPC buy order and a player buy order, the highest buy price wins, not the player? It seems like NPCs have a rather limited range of things they buy.
Correct! Highest price wins on buy orders. Lowest price wins on sell orders.

It is kind of funny to see someone trying to sell a skill at a school for more than they bought it for: it doesn't matter if someone tries to buy their higher priced skill book, they get one from the lower priced NPC sell order.

Also, if you don't think it is fair for players to offer to buy stuff at 1% of avg regional cost, then set up your own region wide buy order for 2% of avg regional cost. PvP in this game is not limited to shooting each other. YARRRR!!

Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.01.29 02:04:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Baka Lakadaka on 29/01/2010 02:06:03
Originally by: Ki Tarra


Correct! Highest price wins on buy orders. Lowest price wins on sell orders.




This is the entire premise for station trading.

If the highest buy order is 1 ISK and the lowest sell order is 10 ISK, you can buy for 2 ISK (you're now the highest buyer) and sell for 9 ISK (because you're the lowest seller). Your profit is 7 ISK per item.......until someone comes and puts in a buy order at 3 ISK and is prepared to sell for 8 ISK making only 5 ISK.

Then you up your order to 4 ISK, sell for 7 ISK and make 3.......after a while the market normalises to a very low profit level and it's time to find another item with a nice gap between buy and sell prices.

Of course the increments can be as low as 0.01 ISK and if you buy/sell a couple of hundred million Tritanium, the 0.01 ISK becomes significant.

Edit: this method requires no hauling and I haven't taken into account brokerage and taxes - a little thought and you can quickly overcome that though.


 

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