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Captain Nares
Posted - 2010.02.02 07:16:00 - [241]
 

Dramiel can kill Thrasher/Sabre. But it needs special fitting for this. Shield AB MSE+ShB fitting or Armor AB+400mm plate+TD.

Kismo
Posted - 2010.02.02 08:41:00 - [242]
 

Edited by: Kismo on 02/02/2010 08:42:32
Edited by: Kismo on 02/02/2010 08:41:55
Sure feel free to counter fit for fighting a thrasher and sabre but now you are much less useful to your gang and even then you will require virtually perfect piloting skill. You up for it or are you another one of these theorycrafters capt nares? remember i like deadspace fit dramiels because theyre impossible to kill NO COUNTERS IN THE WHOLE GAME

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.02.02 08:47:00 - [243]
 

Edited by: Raimo on 02/02/2010 08:49:11

Jesus, it really is nanowhine reloaded! Shocked

The game is getting more fun again after the disaster that was QR, beg for boosts to other ships instead of joining the carebear nerfwagon you dimwits! I won't let you idgits destroy my gameplay *again*! :P

(Actually that's what I hope will happen, now they boosted faction frigs spearheaded by the Dram, then they'll do AFs and rockets, then T3 frigs, after this ceptors start to *really* need a boost etc... Soon HACs need a speed boost as well! Twisted Evil )

Also, fly better.

Darthewok
Perkone
Posted - 2010.02.02 08:47:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Kismo
i like deadspace fit dramiels

dude is just looking for loot

Ynos Fukse
Posted - 2010.02.02 11:04:00 - [245]
 

many ceptors will be the dramiel counter after it will be nerfed. We hope soon.

Matsumoto Yoshizu
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.02.02 11:28:00 - [246]
 

Why should a ceptor be able to kill a dramiel/daredevil/cruor etc anyway? On the one hand, a 20 mil ship designed for tackle, with a secondary role of engaging support. Pirate frigs cost 80-120mil and are designed to kill stuff and go fast. Spot the difference?

Kirzath
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.02.02 12:00:00 - [247]
 

ITT: People who forgot that Rapiers were and still are the counter to nano***gotry.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.02.02 12:04:00 - [248]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 02/02/2010 12:04:33

ITT: People who don't realise this is about frigate balance, not counters per se.


RenegadeChemist
Caldari
Imperium Forces
Posted - 2010.02.02 12:15:00 - [249]
 

LOL this thread Laughing

People really need to start fitting scramblers... No really, it's that simple. Rest is up to you.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.02.02 12:43:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: RenegadeChemist
LOL this thread Laughing

People really need to start fitting scramblers... No really, it's that simple. Rest is up to you.


Think again why this wont stop typical dramiel fit.

lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2010.02.02 13:11:00 - [251]
 

HOw is this 9 pages long? Shocked

Last time I read through this, it was about 3 pages Embarassed. Anyway, think I might give the dramiel a go seeing as I have min/gal frig both to 5, but never really flown it (hate FOTM ships). Then we'll see if it's really as unkillable as everyone thinks it is. I'm guessing I'll probably lose the one I have lying around 3 minutes after rigging and undocking it Laughing

TraininVain
Posted - 2010.02.02 13:29:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Kimura Masahiko
Why should a ceptor be able to kill a dramiel/daredevil/cruor etc anyway? On the one hand, a 20 mil ship designed for tackle, with a secondary role of engaging support. Pirate frigs cost 80-120mil and are designed to kill stuff and go fast. Spot the difference?


Cost has never been a valid defence against imbalance.

For a start the cost of the pirate ships is determined by the market. Look at the price of the Gila. I remember getting one of those for 40m back when they were poop. Now they're good they're 200 odd. The Vigilant has doubled in price.

The fact that some of the frigs are up to 120m (they are? Haven't been logging on since ME2 came out) should tell you that they're a tad overcooked.

RenegadeChemist
Caldari
Imperium Forces
Posted - 2010.02.02 16:49:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: RenegadeChemist
LOL this thread Laughing

People really need to start fitting scramblers... No really, it's that simple. Rest is up to you.


Think again why this wont stop typical dramiel fit.
Dramiel is nothing without the speed.

Drek Grapper
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.02.02 16:53:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: RenegadeChemist
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: RenegadeChemist
LOL this thread Laughing

People really need to start fitting scramblers... No really, it's that simple. Rest is up to you.


Think again why this wont stop typical dramiel fit.
Dramiel is nothing without the speed.


Get a clue bro...Rolling Eyes

Platoon Sergeant
Posted - 2010.02.04 03:18:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Kismo
Edited by: Kismo on 02/02/2010 08:42:32
Edited by: Kismo on 02/02/2010 08:41:55
Sure feel free to counter fit for fighting a thrasher and sabre but now you are much less useful to your gang and even then you will require virtually perfect piloting skill. You up for it or are you another one of these theorycrafters capt nares? remember i like deadspace fit dramiels because theyre impossible to kill NO COUNTERS IN THE WHOLE GAME


Same deal for anyone flying a Dramiel counterfit frigate.

Also, post your dramiel KMs, proskeelz. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here since Kismo has only killed 11 frigates, ever.

Fact remains that a Dramiel doesn't have to engage if the pilot isn't confident the target can be killed. Lets see you CATCH a dramiel in a Thrasher. It's the same deal with the Cruor. If you kill a Dramiel its because the pilot ****ed up and had an error of judgement.

The Dramiel is NOT infallable, but the fact that so many suggestions (nevermind that you people can actually fill 9 pages with relevant discussion) involve bringing multiple ships, specific counterfitting, or assuming the dramiel pilot is just going to throw their ship at you should be a pretty blatant sign that the ship is imba.

Originally by: RenegadeChemist
Dramiel is nothing without the speed.


Dualprop, bro.

Kismo
Posted - 2010.02.04 04:21:00 - [256]
 

ur rite i totl noob u can kl me EZ. u hv dedspce fit drameel to kl my shp? I put isk where mouth is u no drameel has cutntrs n gam jst noobs kp syn no cnturs u no

Platoon Sergeant
Posted - 2010.02.04 07:02:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Kismo
ur rite i totl noob u can kl me EZ. u hv dedspce fit drameel to kl my shp? I put isk where mouth is u no drameel has cutntrs n gam jst noobs kp syn no cnturs u no

I never said I could kill your Thrasher in a Dramiel. If I was in a deadspace fit Dramiel I wouldn't fight your Thrasher, I'd just warp away and leave you with your thumb up your ass. Letting an enemy warp away at their leisure is non-counter, it's defensive play that simply doesn't result in decisive action.

So like I said, post some Dram KMs if you're such an expert.

Rip Striker
Posted - 2010.02.04 08:02:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous

...
Its better than interceptors - it does everything they do but better. Well it should! It costs 2-3 times as much - and I dont see 2-3 x better performance.
...



Dude, it's the other way around. The Dramiel costs so much because it is so good compared to other frigate hulls. 101 economics - performance increases cost exponentially. Wink

(PS. We all know that the building cost for a Dramiel is no more than for any other frigate hull)


Kismo
Posted - 2010.02.04 08:06:00 - [259]
 

Edited by: Kismo on 04/02/2010 08:06:10
Originally by: Platoon Sergeant

I never said I could kill your Thrasher in a Dramiel. If I was in a deadspace fit Dramiel I wouldn't fight your Thrasher, I'd just warp away and leave you with your thumb up your ass. Letting an enemy warp away at their leisure is non-counter, it's defensive play that simply doesn't result in decisive action.

So like I said, post some Dram KMs if you're such an expert.


u asum that all pvp abt solo if drml cnt sty on fld in gng thn he is cntred lol i r noob ftrll

lil Ghork
Posted - 2010.02.04 08:13:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Kismo
Edited by: Kismo on 04/02/2010 08:06:10
u asum that all pvp abt solo if drml cnt sty on fld in gng thn he is cntred lol i r noob ftrll



Can anyone translate, i know my english is far from flawless, but this!

Pwnage Star
Posted - 2010.02.04 08:58:00 - [261]
 

you guys are lol.... It's obvious that you haven't skilled / don't have isk to fly dramiel , or you have lost your precious ship to random dramiel.

There is nothing wrong with dramiel. Accept that

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2010.02.04 09:19:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Rip Striker
Originally by: Omarvelous

...
Its better than interceptors - it does everything they do but better. Well it should! It costs 2-3 times as much - and I dont see 2-3 x better performance.
...



Dude, it's the other way around. The Dramiel costs so much because it is so good compared to other frigate hulls. 101 economics - performance increases cost exponentially. Wink

(PS. We all know that the building cost for a Dramiel is no more than for any other frigate hull)




not true. Dramiel cost is attached to a comodity with prices determianted by other game components. Angels LP point value. Empire LP value is around MINIMUM 1k isk per unit, angel LP value is higher than that simply because even without the dramiel there would still be much demand for machariels and cynabals and halo sets.

The navy slices before the faction ship changes was utter crap.. but still costed a LOT MORE than normal frigates.


People just don t realize that a pirate ship should have a definite advantage over any non pirate ship of same size when piloted with same skills. The dramiel might be a bit on the overkill side, on my opinion due to too many drones, but no one should NEVER EVER expect to counter a dramiel with a rifter.

Darthewok
Perkone
Posted - 2010.02.04 10:19:00 - [263]
 

Edited by: Darthewok on 04/02/2010 10:36:45
ok lets clear up the whole "Dramiel should be better because its more expensive" argument.
yes expensive ships should be better.
the question is how much better.
the problem with the Dramiel is its improved performance over increased price ratio is too high.

in a game, there has to be highly diminishing returns to spending more or else it just becomes a "buy your way to victory".
that's why +5 implants are so much more expensive than +3s and so forth.
otherwise, it becomes a game of player skill doesn't matter, simply buy better and better gear to win.
Dramiel Performance-to-price ratio is broken compared to other frigates.
it delivers too much increased performance over other frigs than let's say the Daredevil or Cruor.

it perverts the nature of frig vs frig combat towards a "buy your way to victory" dynamic.
pay more money for an +10 invincible sword etc.
not what i hope EVE MMO stands for.

Sphit Ker
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.02.04 10:34:00 - [264]
 

You guys sure got me thinking. Im gonna sleep on that but in the end it probably won't matter what I think anyway Shocked


Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2010.02.04 10:35:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Darthewok
Edited by: Darthewok on 04/02/2010 10:31:00
ok lets clear up the whole "Dramiel should be better because its more expensive" argument.
yes expensive ships should be better.
the question is how much better.
the problem with the Dramiel is its improved performance over increased price ratio is too high.

in a game, there has to be highly diminishing returns to spending more or else it just becomes a "buy your way to victory".
that's why +5 implants are so much more expensive than +3s and so forth.
otherwise, it becomes a game of player skill doesn't matter, simply buy better and better gear to win.
Dramiel Performance-to-price ratio is broken compared to other frigates.
it delivers too much increased performance over other frigs than let's say the Daredevil or Cruor.

it perverts the nature of frig vs frig combat towards a "buy your way to victory" dynamic.
pay more money for an invincible +10 invincible sword etc.
not what i hope EVE MMO stands for.


then start sellignit more and more expensive. If its sooo good people will still buy it. ITs price is NOT based upon mineral prices. If a faction ship ius REALLY good it WILL keep raising its price.

Pwnage Star
Posted - 2010.02.04 10:57:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Pwnage Star
you guys are lol.... It's obvious that you haven't skilled / don't have isk to fly dramiel , or you have lost your precious ship to random dramiel.

There is nothing wrong with dramiel. Accept that

Stuart Price
Caldari
FLA5HY RED
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2010.02.04 11:11:00 - [267]
 

The Dramiel really is very good indeed. Possibly TOO good.

To test if it's overpowered or not is actually very easy:

Q. You get to pick one frigate (t1 or t2)to fly in pvp and ONE frigate ONLY. Which one do you pick?

If significantly more people pick Dramiel than any other frig then it is overpowered, by perception at the very least.

In other news, if I had isk to burn, I'd rather have a Daredevil and a faction web. 'jus saying.

Smabs
Posted - 2010.02.04 11:17:00 - [268]
 

Quote:
then start sellignit more and more expensive. If its sooo good people will still buy it. ITs price is NOT based upon mineral prices. If a faction ship ius REALLY good it WILL keep raising its price.


Um, how do you sell it for more when a whole bunch of other people are selling it for 70 mil?

Anyway, I don't see the dramiel as such a big deal. Maybe just nerfing the speed a touch so that it's not faster than a ceptor would balance things out. I mean, when it's worth 3 to 4 AF's/ceptors it ought to be pretty tough.

Darthewok
Perkone
Posted - 2010.02.04 11:17:00 - [269]
 

i have skills and isk to fly dramiels.
i don't because if i win or lose i want to know the victory is due to player skill/character skill/better fit.

if fight an opponent with roughly equal costing frigate, whoever wins, i know its player skill/character skill/better fit.
win or lose almost doesn't matter - its a proper challenge and great fun.

if one side flies a much superior ship due to simply paying more there is zero glory in victory at all.
sure there is some piloting skill involved, but mostly the victory is bought not earned.

pirate frigs are fine if they are not extremely worth the cost.
then people fly them occasionally for fun, they don't wreck game balance.
if they become extremely worth the cost, then people flying frigs simply buy their way to victory over other non-pirate frigs by getting a dramiel.

it makes a mockery of any effort or skill non-pirate frig pilots put in.
they know they can just pay to win by getting a dramiel.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.02.04 12:43:00 - [270]
 

Hit it with the nerfbat , and hit it again again until it stops moving at all :)
these ships are everywhere now 0.0 low sec everywhere


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