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The AEther
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.01.27 22:20:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
But even double webbed dramiel is faster than scrambled cruiser.


It depends on whether the Dramiel has a web fitted or not. Dramiel with 1mn ab II and two T2 webs on it goes at 340 m/s with all level V skills. An Arbitrator with 10mn ab and 1600mm plate on has max velocity of 460 m/s or with 800mm plate - 480m/s. The dual-prop setup on Dramiels seems to be a very popular one, however, it lacks a web meaning that this Arbi will be well capable of keeping the Dramiel pinned down. Now if a Dramiel does have a web fitted then cruiser gets slowed down to 190 m/s and the Dramiel has a good chance of escaping before being torn to pieces by small T2 drones as well as autocannons, rockets, and a neut mounted on the Arbi.

Bruce Kemp
Minmatar
Skull's Reloaded.
Posted - 2010.01.27 22:22:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: baltec1
A sentinel stops it in its tracks.


+1

Twisted Evil

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.01.27 22:24:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: The AEther
An Arbitrator with 10mn ab...

You dont think that seriously...

The AEther
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.01.27 22:40:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: The AEther on 27/01/2010 22:40:25
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: The AEther
An Arbitrator with 10mn ab...

You dont think that seriously...


It's been already done in game. I'd post a link to km but I didn't bother to save it.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.01.27 22:42:00 - [65]
 

Holy cow you are totally correct! A dramiel would smoke a thrasher, Id be scared of every dramiel in my thrasher. Every dramiel should not hesitate to attack a thrasher.

Trader20
Posted - 2010.01.27 22:43:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Trader20 on 27/01/2010 22:55:29

[Ishkur, ]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I

Gistii B-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]

Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I


Warrior II x5
Launch drones, get in close, scram and shut down mwd, web and slow down ab, and blast away. Trying to cover that expl gap with rigs (think armor rigs would be better because has more hp to cover). Also hitting his lowest resist (on his fit) with the blasters. Needs +3 CPU implant or downgrade guns and fit a neut but I prefer the dps and range. (don't forget to bring null)

Or just use a dual web neut domi.


MukkBarovian
Posted - 2010.01.27 23:12:00 - [67]
 


Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.01.27 23:27:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Trader20
[Ishkur]

Dramiel will kite you at the edge of scram range, not sure if it will be able to kill 2 flights of light drones or kill you before they will wear him down.

Originally by: Sig Sour
Holy cow you are totally correct! A dramiel would smoke a thrasher, Id be scared of every dramiel in my thrasher. Every dramiel should not hesitate to attack a thrasher.

Another sign you are total noob and have no idea what are you talking about.

Originally by: The AEther
It's been already done in game. I'd post a link to km but I didn't bother to save it.

Well you can fit alot of ships to specifically counter dramiel /if rockets werent so fail id say even griffin can do it/, only it destroys that ships ability to fight other ships...

Originally by: MukkBarovian
...

So you killed frig in a bs, gz.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.01.27 23:30:00 - [69]
 

The counter to the Dramiel is to moan at CCP and remind them that nano was nerfed a while back, so it's just barmy to put a ship that does 5km/sec on MWD even before speed mods in the game in the first place.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.01.27 23:30:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Sig Sour
Holy cow you are totally correct! A dramiel would smoke a thrasher, Id be scared of every dramiel in my thrasher. Every dramiel should not hesitate to attack a thrasher.

Another sign you are total noob and have no idea what are you talking about.

I'm pretty sure that that was sarcasm brah

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.01.27 23:54:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Sig Sour
Holy cow you are totally correct! A dramiel would smoke a thrasher, Id be scared of every dramiel in my thrasher. Every dramiel should not hesitate to attack a thrasher.

Another sign you are total noob and have no idea what are you talking about.

I'm pretty sure that that was sarcasm brah


It was. And hes absolutely wrong. Arty trasher has absolutely 0 chance and ac trasher can be killed in dramiel.
Only neut can save mse trasher /wont work if dramiel has nos/ and it would be very close fight between dram and 400rt trasher /dram actually outdpses trasher at 10k and has comparable buffer if trasher pilot fits trimarks instead of dmg rig and ambits/. In both cases dramiel can disengage so easy, it isnt fun.

And im talking about standard dualprop dramiel, not some lowsec ***mobiles with snakes, xinstinct and td...

Intigo
Amarr
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.28 00:11:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
Holy cow you are totally correct! A dramiel would smoke a thrasher, Id be scared of every dramiel in my thrasher. Every dramiel should not hesitate to attack a thrasher.


I would like to fight your arty Thrasher.

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.01.28 00:11:00 - [73]
 

Here to confirm that if you are a Dramiel pilot and you see a Thrasher you should not hesitate to attack it as it is very easy to kill.


After all you are in a more expensive ship, and a cheap ships always dies to a more expensive ship.

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2010.01.28 00:19:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth
Anyone know of a counter to a dramiel in frigate size class? I can't think of anything that can beat it or any tactics.

It's faster than interceptors, dual props usually for versatility, runs a passive shield buffer, does damage/tanks like an AF, even has drones.

Sure it costs 70m, but I can't think of anything that can beat it in its weight class. I even thought of the daredevil with its 90% web, but the thing is the dramiel will pack a neut. capping you out in 50 seconds, making you dead in the water. Maybe a slicer and exploit its range/tank but no it still has far lower dps, and will get ****d.

Dramiel seems to be able to disengage at will if situation turns dire, hell it can run around in scram range also since it has a afterburner that moves at freaking 2km/s. Even neuts don't seem to be very good wards either, since the guns dont need cap.

[Dramiel, New Setup 3]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Gyrostabilizer II

Coreli C-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive
Gistii B-Type 1MN Afterburner
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Small Core Defence Field Extender II
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Small Ancillary Current Router I


Warrior II x3

Anyone got any ideas?

Only thing I could come up with was a aml caracal using 1 heavy missile launcher to bait them into double web/scram range. Bc's, it can just disengage easy if things turn sour.
A well put together ishkur with neut/nos would give it a really close fight I think. Especially if you use hobgoblins.

Platoon Sergeant
Posted - 2010.01.28 02:02:00 - [75]
 

sigh @ arty thrasher pilots.

9 seconds is a ****ing ETERNITY.

You will get one salvo off, probably taking him into armour. 2-3 seconds later the dramiel will be orbiting you at 1038957190m/s and then you will die in pretty short order.

This is of course assuming the dramiel pilot doesn't just bail instantly..

Arty thrasher works great against normal frigates, but you simply can't keep range on a dramiel long enough to get the 2nd salvo off.

Honestly, the best counter to a dramiel is to give it to a bad player.

That said, you could probably out-gay the dramiel by fitting an anti-dramiel kitsune in the same way people make anti-rifter Griffins. Hard to say if you'd do enough DPS though. Additionally, you're just playing the dice.

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.01.28 02:26:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Platoon Sergeant
sigh @ arty thrasher pilots.

9 seconds is a ****ing ETERNITY.

You will get one salvo off, probably taking him into armour. 2-3 seconds later the dramiel will be orbiting you at 1038957190m/s and then you will die in pretty short order.

This is of course assuming the dramiel pilot doesn't just bail instantly..

Arty thrasher works great against normal frigates, but you simply can't keep range on a dramiel long enough to get the 2nd salvo off.

Honestly, the best counter to a dramiel is to give it to a bad player.

That said, you could probably out-gay the dramiel by fitting an anti-dramiel kitsune in the same way people make anti-rifter Griffins. Hard to say if you'd do enough DPS though. Additionally, you're just playing the dice.



I agree,

It's not Arty Thrashers a Dramiel needs to worry about! Twisted Evil

Ana Birchall
Posted - 2010.01.28 02:44:00 - [77]
 

Osprey Navy Issue

A rare ship, the average Dramiel pilot won't know much about you, but will try to kill you since you're a rare faction ship to have on one's killboard.

It is also fast enough to be able to chase the (scrammed and webbed) Dramiel long enough for its light missiles to finish it off.

Spartan dax
Posted - 2010.01.28 03:43:00 - [78]
 

Fix rockets and a dual web Hookbill should stand a good chance.

Proxyyyy
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.01.28 03:55:00 - [79]
 

Cruor, daredevil, thrasher, jaguar, and ishkur! Provided it catches u or you get a jump on it which ever, thoughs ships can kill the dram. The thrasher can do it if the dude doesnt run which they have from me atleast. Also the jag/ab with a ab can take it down fo sho! Provided you can catch it or it catches u. The iskur can also take it down provided it doesnt try to run away.

Ive seen arty drams, duel prop drams, ab drams, and mwd drams. Im sure you can take out anyone of these at some point or another. The dram cant hold down a cruor or daredevil and if it gets close it dies so i would say them! Maybe even the worm can do it with a combination of extreme tank and good dps.

But the dram is mEH and pretty last year tbh! Must be a new for the moment by now...

Also i would submit the little known armor tanked ab/dram which is hella tanky compared to the shield version with around the same dps. Got the fit from a good sir in back to yarr, but cant be bothered to find it. Its intresting how affective it is to...

D melanogaster
Minmatar
The Fruit Flys
Posted - 2010.01.28 05:29:00 - [80]
 

Best ship to kill a dramiel with is a revelation Shocked

Ammy Azimuth
Posted - 2010.01.28 06:12:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Ammy Azimuth on 28/01/2010 06:12:38
Originally by: Proxyyyy
Cruor, daredevil, thrasher, jaguar, and ishkur! Provided it catches u or you get a jump on it which ever, thoughs ships can kill the dram. The thrasher can do it if the dude doesnt run which they have from me atleast. Also the jag/ab with a ab can take it down fo sho! Provided you can catch it or it catches u. The iskur can also take it down provided it doesnt try to run away.

Ive seen arty drams, duel prop drams, ab drams, and mwd drams. Im sure you can take out anyone of these at some point or another. The dram cant hold down a cruor or daredevil and if it gets close it dies so i would say them! Maybe even the worm can do it with a combination of extreme tank and good dps.

But the dram is mEH and pretty last year tbh! Must be a new for the moment by now...

Also i would submit the little known armor tanked ab/dram which is hella tanky compared to the shield version with around the same dps. Got the fit from a good sir in back to yarr, but cant be bothered to find it. Its intresting how affective it is to...


Assault frigate don't work. Armor tanked dramiels is dumb imo. You lose your speed advantage and being able to fit a medium shield extender >>>>than plates. It gives you buffer AND tank its way better. Gives you around 20 dps tank without even doing anything. Also its a easier indicator whether you should get out or not compared to if you're stuck in armor.

Advantages of dramiel, stupid fast, drones, capless weapons coupled with good range with weapons, good slot layout, good pg/cpu. It's able to fit dual prop so it should be used, as its way more flexible using two props. And I believe proper dramiels should dual prop.



Anyhow, I also updated the counters/dont work in the OP, so no more repetitive suggestions. If thers any other good counters I'll try to add them on. But that's my list atm.

Proxyyyy
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.01.28 06:48:00 - [82]
 

I guess we can agree to disagree about assault ships. About the amour tanked dram; its been putting up major stats and not to mention its the only dram fit to ever beat me thrasher! Honestly when i lost that fight it was hella funny! First the drams with shields my thasher has gone threw hella fast its jsut that they tend to run at that point. Sir Quentin, Val Erian and Kruger81 fly armor tanked drams and have crazy success against steep odds. 3 of the best pilots in game btw you can check them out on battleclinic if u would like...

The preformance speaks for it self...

Not to mention i have seen a duel prop dram get pwned by a jag, because we warped in only to find are bro already poped the dude with that exact fit btw! Jag over heated ab, the dram couldnt get away under web/scram. the speed of a overheated dram under webs is slower than a over heated jag and they both have around the same dps but one has a better tank!

Anyways its not a big deal and drams arent all that uber SOOO CRUOR!!!!

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.01.28 08:01:00 - [83]
 

AC Thrasher won't kill Dramiel's unless a mistake is made. Arty fit has no chance in hell unless it one volleys it (ie. not possible), remember that it is three times as fast as the MWD Thrasher and has similar EHP.
The AB Slicer is able to outrun a majority of AC Thrasher tracking so I doubt a Dramiel will have any problems doing the same .. an even match though, first mistake loses.

Been looking at the Daredevil vs. Dramiel kills linked earlier and it does seem to work decently enough .. caveat of course is that he fits (has to?) faction tackle and appears to have worse luck when Dramiel is bling-fitted as well.

Balancing note: Why exactly does it need to have drones?

Ammy Azimuth
Posted - 2010.01.28 08:12:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
AC Thrasher won't kill Dramiel's unless a mistake is made. Arty fit has no chance in hell unless it one volleys it (ie. not possible), remember that it is three times as fast as the MWD Thrasher and has similar EHP.
The AB Slicer is able to outrun a majority of AC Thrasher tracking so I doubt a Dramiel will have any problems doing the same .. an even match though, first mistake loses.

Been looking at the Daredevil vs. Dramiel kills linked earlier and it does seem to work decently enough .. caveat of course is that he fits (has to?) faction tackle and appears to have worse luck when Dramiel is bling-fitted as well.

Balancing note: Why exactly does it need to have drones?


**** if I know. Devs were like, how else can we make this frigate more ridiculous? I dunno lets give it drones to boot so it can cover all ranges. Sure! Let's do that. Haha, man the players are totally going to have a broken ship after all that fixing with the nano nerf and speed changes. Let's turn it back with a frigate that goes faster than normal inties with a normal mwd without any speed mods yea yea that soudns like good ****.

But yea looking at the rail daredevil, it looks the most plausible, but look at the price needed to win. 120m hull + faction scram (40m) + faction web just in case (40m). Thats bull.

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.01.28 08:53:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth
But yea looking at the rail daredevil, it looks the most plausible, but look at the price needed to win. 120m hull + faction scram (40m) + faction web just in case (40m). Thats bull.
What you're saying is a bull****. You don't need faction stuff just to get longer hands, you need faction stuff to handle lack of CPU. Faction web and scram do not help much with that.

[Daredevil, Rail]

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
High Slot
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Internal Force Field Array I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Overdrive Injector System II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Small Algid Hybrid Administrations Unit I
Rig Slot

302.5 DPS with standard dmg implants (5% for small hybrids and 3% to turrets)

Ammy Azimuth
Posted - 2010.01.28 09:48:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
What you're saying is a bull****. You don't need faction stuff just to get longer hands, you need faction stuff to handle lack of CPU. Faction web and scram do not help much with that.

[Daredevil, Rail]

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
High Slot
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Internal Force Field Array I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Overdrive Injector System II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Small Algid Hybrid Administrations Unit I
Rig Slot

302.5 DPS with standard dmg implants (5% for small hybrids and 3% to turrets)


Maybe you're right. I don't have a daredevil, its just the debate beforehand looked like it mattered you needing faction web/scram to maintain the range easier with the longer hands.

And you could always drop the 150mm to 125mm's. Gains some tracking also.

I guess if you want to know for sure ask the guy who flies rail daredevils aroud and see which is needed more, faction scram/web or faction magnetic field stabs. Cause what he flew was extremely pimped with faction scram/web and dual faction mag stabs. That thing was worth 120m for hull, 50m for scram, 50m for web, 100m for both federation navy mag stabs.

That is a lot of money compared to dramiel 70m for 10m mwd, and 10m ab.

The one thing I don't like is the fact the super expensive daredevil like you listed, has like no buffer. its 4.8k effhp. Great dps, but it looks super flimsy.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.01.28 11:19:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
daredevil

I had something similar on mind, only with gn web and fighting from 18k /safety first in 200m frig/.

Op should add ishkur, jag and succubus /in stardard fits/ as frigs able to hold and kill dramiel. With slightly modified fitting id say harpy and hookbill would do it. Only dont forget you will need deadspace ab on these ships to counter dramiels gisti ab /and piloting error will cost you ship/.

Also 'standard' fits are ab+web fits, so you are losing alot of versatility losing mwd, dualprop, neuts etc.

Cruisers? Every properly fit pvp cruiser /and up/ will be able to get rid of dram after some time, but to actually kill it you will need multiple webs, neuts etc. /also only overconfident dram pilot engages arbi, vexor or aml cara/.

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2010.01.28 12:04:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 28/01/2010 12:06:37
Originally by: Ammy Azimuth
And you could always drop the 150mm to 125mm's. Gains some tracking also.
Bad idea, with 150mm optimal is 9km with nice falloff. Dramiels have 4 meds, which can be dangerous in armor-tank configs with ab, scram, web and tracking disruptor. Besides, base dps is lower.
Originally by: Ammy Azimuth
I guess if you want to know for sure ask the guy who flies rail daredevils aroud and see which is needed more, faction scram/web or faction magnetic field stabs. Cause what he flew was extremely pimped with faction scram/web and dual faction mag stabs. That thing was worth 120m for hull, 50m for scram, 50m for web, 100m for both federation navy mag stabs.
I don't think killing standard dramiels would be any harder with t2 fitting + faction magstab.
Originally by: Ammy Azimuth
That is a lot of money compared to dramiel 70m for 10m mwd, and 10m ab.
Imo it's the main reason why dramiel is so popular. Angels have good military agents hub and dramiel can show its potential even with cheap t2 (or partially complex) stuff. Serpentis and daredevil miss both boints (actually daredevil can use cheap gear in blaster config, but as blaster boat it has much more chances to lose vs dramiel; besides, he doesn't have so much control outside of web range).
Originally by: Ammy Azimuth
The one thing I don't like is the fact the super expensive daredevil like you listed, has like no buffer. its 4.8k effhp. Great dps, but it looks super flimsy.
Imo it's fine. Not as much as dramiel's but it has more dps, and personally i prefer 30-50% dps over 1.5-2k hp of buffer tank.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2010.01.28 12:46:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: D melanogaster
Best ship to kill a dramiel with is a revelation Shocked


Haha, nice one.

Intigo
Amarr
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.28 12:49:00 - [90]
 

I like how the Arty Thrasher guy and the Mostly Harmless "THIS WOLF CAN BEAT A DRAMIEL" guy both disappear when you ask them to prove what they are saying.


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