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blankseplocked Anyone feel the need for more team oriented PVE?
 
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Zane Lucanus
Posted - 2010.01.18 20:13:00 - [31]
 

whose to say you can't run level 4's with multiple people. My main, when he lived in non worm-hole space, would get together a few more experienced corp memebers, and some newbs and run level 4's.

This way the newbies get the standing boost, and make more money than they would normally, and it's a group effort.

Another though would be, to fly non mission specific ships. Fit your ship for pvp and then go run some missions. I always though of missions as paying practice for pvp.

or you could just ship down as a fleet and try to run 4's with a bunch of t1 cruisers

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 20:21:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Zane Lucanus
whose to say you can't run level 4's with multiple people. My main, when he lived in non worm-hole space, would get together a few more experienced corp memebers, and some newbs and run level 4's.

This way the newbies get the standing boost, and make more money than they would normally, and it's a group effort.

Another though would be, to fly non mission specific ships. Fit your ship for pvp and then go run some missions. I always though of missions as paying practice for pvp.

or you could just ship down as a fleet and try to run 4's with a bunch of t1 cruisers


You can run L4s as a group, but each person individually makes significantly less ISK/hr than if they were running them solo. When I'm running L4s with my corp, I would typically see about half the ISK/20 mins (bounty) that I make solo. I would additionally make about 1/5th of the LP that I would normally make. Thus, I went from 60-80M ISK/hr to 20M ISK/hr. Yeah, running missions as a group is real ****ing profitable.

Bear in mind that we were running 2-3 gank Marauders and 2-3 gank battleships with 40-50M SP avg SP.

-Liang

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.01.18 22:03:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Zane Lucanus
whose to say you can't run level 4's with multiple people. My main, when he lived in non worm-hole space, would get together a few more experienced corp memebers, and some newbs and run level 4's.

This way the newbies get the standing boost, and make more money than they would normally, and it's a group effort.


That's great and I'm sure most corps do the same ( mine does ), but it would be even better if you could give lower SP pilots actual roles beyond "clean up after me". NPCs are massively low SP themselves, if they went for ships of their own size ( or the class above ) first then your destroyer-flying newbs would have their own fight, for instance. Obvious exceptions for NPC tacklers, but they could choose based on insurance cost or something.

Originally by: Zane Lucanus

Another though would be, to fly non mission specific ships. Fit your ship for pvp and then go run some missions. I always though of missions as paying practice for pvp.

or you could just ship down as a fleet and try to run 4's with a bunch of t1 cruisers


Missions are only practice for PvP in being a safe predictable way to practice fleet coordination, which isn't a bad thing in itself but you can do the same thing with two corp fleets fighting each other. Using small ships is fun, but at the expense of profit; what we want is it to be fun AND profitable.

Zane Lucanus
Posted - 2010.01.18 22:30:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Zane Lucanus
whose to say you can't run level 4's with multiple people. My main, when he lived in non worm-hole space, would get together a few more experienced corp memebers, and some newbs and run level 4's.

This way the newbies get the standing boost, and make more money than they would normally, and it's a group effort.

Another though would be, to fly non mission specific ships. Fit your ship for pvp and then go run some missions. I always though of missions as paying practice for pvp.

or you could just ship down as a fleet and try to run 4's with a bunch of t1 cruisers


You can run L4s as a group, but each person individually makes significantly less ISK/hr than if they were running them solo. When I'm running L4s with my corp, I would typically see about half the ISK/20 mins (bounty) that I make solo. I would additionally make about 1/5th of the LP that I would normally make. Thus, I went from 60-80M ISK/hr to 20M ISK/hr. Yeah, running missions as a group is real ****ing profitable.

Bear in mind that we were running 2-3 gank Marauders and 2-3 gank battleships with 40-50M SP avg SP.

-Liang


right, but as my reading of the forum leads me to believe, i would consider you to be one of the most efficient of all the mission runners. I've read tons of threads about the avg M/R makes X iskies an hr, and while you can make 60-80 mil per hr, i would say that 90% of the pilots out there make considerably less than that.

Just because you make the most money doing it one way doesn't mean that it has to be done that way.

Heck going into Blockade lvl 4 with some bc's and just punching out the triggers to start with makes the mission more interesting.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2010.01.18 22:33:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Foraven
I agree, but there should be more in mission than just kill everything that show up red. Some extra objectives, the need for some non-combat skills (like codebreaker) that would give use for non warrior toon during fleet missions.


Yes, that too exists in game. The mission is called Code: Redress (if I recall correctly), given at least by Caldari agents, probably by all.

In fact, what both you and Liang want, already exists, in one form or another. It just doesn't exist in highsec. Well, you can get some L5's in hs, but not an endless supply like L4's.

So yes, move L5's to hs, and presto, there you have your hs group PvE activity, which is more profitable then L4's, assuming you know what you're doing. Of course, proponents of lowsec don't want to see that happening, and nor does CCP for that matter.

The real solution to all this is another revamp of the signal system, or scanning system if you prefer. And complete removal of map statistics too of course. But that's OT.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:04:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon

In fact, what both you and Liang want, already exists, in one form or another. It just doesn't exist in highsec. Well, you can get some L5's in hs, but not an endless supply like L4's.



No, I think you do not quite understand my position:
- L5s are a mandatory group activity. Furthermore, the difficulty of this group activity does not scale wrt fleet size (even remotely). Thus, when my corp has 2 people on, we wouldn't be able to make ISK without L4s, and when we have 8 people on, we'd all make more ISK/hr running solo L4s.
- L5s **** up your faction standings in a bad way. This is the biggest reason I'm unwilling to do them. Note that this doesn't mean I haven't done them - because I have.
- Wormholes are also mandatory group events (and therefore have the same complaints as above). And then you're "stuck" in wormhole space unable to manage POS's, play the market, etc all the while hoping you get a reasonable site to spawn. Sorry, but there's *way way way way* too many mining sites in WH space. Also, I don't think there exists any appreciably sized Aus TZ WH corps. I looked. Neutral
- I am a long time denizen of lowsec. I'm completely comfortable solo missioning in battleships in lowsec, and truthfully it's some of the best ISK in the game. However, it is more stressful than missioning in highsec, and is best done with friends nearby.

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:20:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 18/01/2010 23:54:56
Originally by: Zane Lucanus
right, but as my reading of the forum leads me to believe, i would consider you to be one of the most efficient of all the mission runners. I've read tons of threads about the avg M/R makes X iskies an hr, and while you can make 60-80 mil per hr, i would say that 90% of the pilots out there make considerably less than that.

Just because you make the most money doing it one way doesn't mean that it has to be done that way.

Heck going into Blockade lvl 4 with some bc's and just punching out the triggers to start with makes the mission more interesting.



I'm not sure that I follow the reasoning that I shouldn't be able to maintain at least a reasonable level of reward for working with a team. In fact, it seems like my level of reward should go up - at least a little bit. Hell, even if you took what I specifically do as the upper end that could be achieved, I'd like to maintain that.

-Liang

Ed: Also, I want to clarify something: I am not at all the most efficient mission runner I know. By a long shot... by many long shots actually. I'm far too lazy for the kinds of rewards they see. ugh

Hound Halfhand
Minmatar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:49:00 - [38]
 

2 of my RL friends would still be playing if there was more group style PvE. As my skills improved in the Raven I used to fly there Drake and Caracal just slowed us down. We tried 0.0 in a semi-large corp however we just ended up podded a lot with no ISK. They quit and I plod along hoping to get involved in wormholes at some point.

Even with that being said, I cannot imagine larger and larger missions in hi-sec requiring fleets of battleships and battle cruisers along with support. I think it would ruin the feel of Eve. If anything the answer is high end plexes in 0.0, ratting large amounts of ships in 0.0 and wormholes in remote hard to get places where a few people can set up shop for awhile, without worrying about non stop gankage. That would require tons of empty space which I do not think is realistic. I believe CCP originally had that idea with wormholes but they didn't realize that the logistics would be too much for the average player, not to mention the random gankage.

Kraizer793
88Flak
Posted - 2010.01.19 00:04:00 - [39]
 

From the plexes I've run. It seems to me that losec and 0.0 plexes require a decent ammount of teamwork, depending on the site you get.

Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.19 01:27:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Hound Halfhand

Even with that being said, I cannot imagine larger and larger missions in hi-sec requiring fleets of battleships and battle cruisers along with support. I think it would ruin the feel of Eve. If anything the answer is high end plexes in 0.0, ratting large amounts of ships in 0.0 and wormholes in remote hard to get places where a few people can set up shop for awhile, without worrying about non stop gankage. That would require tons of empty space which I do not think is realistic. I believe CCP originally had that idea with wormholes but they didn't realize that the logistics would be too much for the average player, not to mention the random gankage.


Nah, i would not want it either. Missions/plexes to do with 2-3 friends would be nice enough, anything much bigger would become tedious and subject to lag. But the need for teamwork should not be limited to firepower and tanking/repping, it should involve other things that bringing a more powerful ship would not solve.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2010.01.19 12:02:00 - [41]
 

Ok, first off, I'm not against new PvE content, I'm all for it. But since it's a boring day at work, I feel like addressing some points here still.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
No, I think you do not quite understand my position:
- L5s are a mandatory group activity. Furthermore, the difficulty of this group activity does not scale wrt fleet size (even remotely). Thus, when my corp has 2 people on, we wouldn't be able to make ISK without L4s, and when we have 8 people on, we'd all make more ISK/hr running solo L4s.

Okay, L5's main issue (apart from standings loss) is that they're in losec. That aside:

You need two ships, to be effective at it. Sure most missions you can plink away at the rats with passive NH/Ish, but I'm not sure how effective that is. Don't care to find out either.

I also haven't tested larger groups, but I'm betting the peak performance / person would come in at 3-4 people / mission, if we're talking decently skilled (20-40m sp) damage focused peeps who know what they're doing. If you allow for separate persons doing the salvaging and hauling, which I think is optimal, then I'd say 4-6 peeps total.

So with 2 peeps you can still do em, and with 8 peeps you'd be better off splitting into two groups.

Solo you do L4's instead.

So I really have to say, that they *do* satisfy your requirement, only they're not mainly offered in the PvE environment, aka highsec.
Quote:
- L5s **** up your faction standings in a bad way. This is the biggest reason I'm unwilling to do them. Note that this doesn't mean I haven't done them - because I have.
Other for the really casual peeps, who don't mind declining most missions, there's no getting around that. It's why I'm shot at in both min and gal space. A bit of a hassle sometimes as you can't linger about nor AP, and yes I've even lost ships to navies, but, not the end of the world.

ArcDragon
Caldari
Ghost Data
Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
Posted - 2010.01.19 16:44:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: ArcDragon on 19/01/2010 16:51:47
My wife, being a social creature is more likely to stay in Eve if it contains group oriented activities. I've read all posts and so far I can see the validity of every single one. At the risk of offering something different, here is an idea for a group oriented PVE mission.

Option for high, low or 00 space is given as a choice with correspondingly higher rewards.

Scaling combat, meaning the more ships that enter this mission the more hostile ships enter as well (yes, just like sleeper sites and capital ships). The exact scaleling effect is not relevant at this point.

Variable AI, meaning some ships will behave as sleepers do by switching targets, testing the newcomer and working off of a threat list by targeting drones and battleships over ejected shuttles (for example). Other ships will act as the old AI which is "first come, first served".

To further facilitate the group effort and to encourage corporations to form groups, the corp will get some sort of sovereingty based reward, or perhaps ISK or status, or blanket loyalty point award or something that benifits the entire corporation.

The mission would require multiple ships by taking advantage of the fact that no one ship can do all things.

The mission would require a dedicated ECM ship, perhaps to jam some sort of specific missle battery or gate that allows hostile ships to come in.

ECM ships could also jam the entrance, making it impossible for outsiders of the fleet to gain entrance.

The mission would require a dedicated tanking ship, nothing special here but the ability to take a pounding.

The mission would also require at least one exploration or mining based ship to find an object of interest.

The mission would also require codebreaking/hacking/archeology in order to interact with the object of interest.

Logistic/support ships could fill various roles and may/maynot be used.


What makes this a group effort is that currently you can complete all missions in Eve by doing each of the above seperatley and/or solo. This mission will require all things to be done nearly simultainioulsy. As in something to be jammed while running a scan with probes while tanking an opposing force while the opposing forces numbers could change with each new incoming ship type. When the object is found it also requires another type of ship to crack into it via codebreaking/hacking etc.

That would be one hell of a mission to write and any programmer worth his salt would love to run the numbers and figure out the logic behind it all.




For those who did not bother to read the long post, go read it before you type something stupid. Thanks.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.01.19 17:22:00 - [43]
 

Veloni said "lvl5's
Sleepers.....Go do those (especially sleepers, c4-5-6), then come back and say that there aren't enough pve group activity's.

Ok done that, there is not enough group PvE in the game. Sleepers are boring it's the same site again and again not to mention are easy. Level 5's and plex's have not changed in years and are boring after all this time. The problem is doing the same content over and over year after year. There just isn't enough variety.

As PvE content go Eve is one of the smallest out of commercial MMO's. Of the top of my head if you don't count the same mission with a different rat name as a different missions then there are something like 30 different lvl 4 missions, 20 odd level 5 missions which is just tiny.

As for wormholes you have 8 missions in a class 6 that are all pretty much the same. You have 8 in a class 5 which are just the same as the class 6 a few less ships per wave. Not only are the 8 missions pretty much the same within one one class. They are also pretty similes between the classes.

Initial Group
3x Sentry Guns (Orthrus)
5x Frigates (Emergent Sentinel) [scram, web]
5x Cruisers (Awakened Sentinel) [web] TRIGGER
Reinforcement Wave 1
6x Frigates (Emergent Keeper) [rr, nos] TRIGGER
3x Battleships (Sleepless Sentinel) [scram, web]
Reinforcement Wave 2
5x Cruisers (Awakened Sentinel) [web]
3x Cruisers (Awakened Keeper) [scram, web, nos]
3x Battleships (Sleepless Sentinel) [scram, web, nos] TRIGGER
Reinforcement Wave 3
3x Frigates (Emergent Warden) [scram, web, nos]
2x Cruisers (Awakened Sentinel) [web]
2x Battleships (Sleepless Keeper) [nos]

Initial Group
6x Sentry Guns (Orthrus) (up to 115km from warp in)
4x Frigates (Emergent Sentinel) [scram, web] TRIGGER
Reinforcement Wave 1
2x Battleships (Sleepless Keeper) [nos]
2x Battleships (Sleepless Warden) [rr] TRIGGER
Reinforcement Wave 2
6x Frigates (Emergent Warden) [scram, web, nos]
7x Cruisers (Awakened Sentinel) [web] TRIGGER
Reinforcement Wave 3
4x Cruisers (Awakened Warden) [rr]
2x Battleships (Sleepless Keeper) [nos]
3x Battleships (Sleepless Warden) [rr]

That's pretty much the only difference between sleeper sites. All CCP did was create 1 sleeper site then change the waves per site.

SirDynty
Boiians
Posted - 2010.01.19 17:46:00 - [44]
 

iam not that experiencedmbut i ran a lot level4 a lot,plexes etc in 0.0,and it is all about the security.

There is my idea how PvE should work in eve.
There should be "Epic Arc" escalating in diffulcity,forever.
In high-sec.
I dont think it should be like real epic arc,and i dont mind if it will be 6 missions repeating all the time,but it should be harder and harder.
So PvE corporations would go and race "We are curretly stuck at Rank 11 Epic arc,nerf it!"
There can be limit on gate,or it could be limited by mass like WH,but corporations will go and "progress"
There is a lot of peoples that never leave hi-sec anyways,so no real losss,and corp can still be wardecced. But there should be something to progress in PvE. So corporations can compete in PvE and write on forums that "we did it an you does not"
Thanks for all gb2wow comments,but i think this is perfectoly viable in EvE,nothing wrong on it and would add a lot of content to the game.

cal nereus
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.01.19 19:40:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: cal nereus on 19/01/2010 19:42:50

Basically, what I'm hearing is that several players have discovered they individually earn more isk per hour doing solo activities than they do with known team activities. But they want to do team activities. And they want more isk from it too.

For PvE to be a mandatory team activity, the "E" in PvE has to be intelligent. So far, only Wormhole sleepers have been remotely challenging in that regard (all other NPCs are predictable and easily tricked solo). I can't imagine solo-ing a class 6 wormhole. Can you?

Until CCP introduces more team-oriented PvE content (and they will, it's inevitable), train skills for Remote Armor Repairers and Shield Transfers, Remote Sensor Boosting, Electronic Warfare, Exploration, and of course, Tank and Gank. Do team activities even if you earn less isk (or if isk is important to you, just do whatever you want to earn isk). Eventually, there will be more content.

In fact, try suggesting it to CCP. Very Happy

crimson fire
Posted - 2010.01.20 03:24:00 - [46]
 

Instead of just one timebonus set 5 or 10 time bonuses.

Then only teamwork can give you the biggest rewards and you get an incentive for teamwork.

The more players in the team the faster completion time and thus bigger reward (although isk pr player can be kept at any lvl ccp want by regulating time limits and reward)

Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.20 05:57:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: crimson fire
Instead of just one timebonus set 5 or 10 time bonuses.

Then only teamwork can give you the biggest rewards and you get an incentive for teamwork.

The more players in the team the faster completion time and thus bigger reward (although isk pr player can be kept at any lvl ccp want by regulating time limits and reward)


I think there should also be a possibility to fail a mission. Right now, the only way you can fail is to let the time run out or giving it up, it's not possible to screw it up. For example, if you leave the mission before the objective are completed, the mission is failed. That would make it a plus to have someone else along so the mission can keep going if we have to bail out. Also, imagine if we really had to read the briefing to do the mission right...

Qui Shon
Posted - 2010.01.20 10:58:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: crimson fire
Instead of just one timebonus set 5 or 10 time bonuses.

Then only teamwork can give you the biggest rewards and you get an incentive for teamwork.

The more players in the team the faster completion time and thus bigger reward (although isk pr player can be kept at any lvl ccp want by regulating time limits and reward)


Okkay so you want even MORE of an income gap from highsec PvE between average Joe and the "pro's"?

Well, suits me but are you sure that's a good idea?

Humble Alt
Posted - 2010.01.20 11:57:00 - [49]
 

yes yes and yes

look at wow, good example pf yeamwork there

Max Payne
Posted - 2010.01.20 17:38:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Max Payne on 20/01/2010 17:55:06
To have more group oriented PVE you need to make modules and ship classes that fit the 4-5 pve classic RPG classes. That being the tank, healer, crowd control , nuker and buff debuffer.

As it is now every ship is it's own healer/damage dealer and tank(and ocasional CC).

And as I see it we need to have cheap T1 ships(without too much training) that can fulfill these roles.

A tanking-agro module would be a projector which makes your ship look bigger and more menacing by projecting for instance a cruiser from a frigate sized hull or maybe a titan from a carrier(and so on)
This would make the NPC attack you, thus letting people actually fit ships with remote reppers alone, without worrying that they would be the primary.
Also since it projects beyond the actual ship some of the shots fired at you would miss so the module would be even better suited for tanking ships.

The T1 exequror is a good example for a logistic ship but if you wanna run 4 RR you must fit almost exclusively for cap. That's a good example of a specialized ship. This coupled with a tank ship is a good base for any nice T1 gang for say level 3 group mission.(just need 3 DPS ships)

The next thing you need to have is the addition of the "boss". And I don't mean Zor - I mean a ship that would do all by itself 10k dps(or w/e is feasible) and would require a tank in the 90s + tanking implants.(btw adding an implant that gimps the DPS but increases tank significantly would be really really sweet. ( booster type effects).
Of course that mission should only be available for gangs (5 peeps or so).
And since that would be a pve thing please make it high sec or even better instanced.


So to summarize.

True tanks.(with agro grab module)

True reppers. (ones that don't necessarilly require a year of training so newbies can do that in frigates )

True DPS (that can focus on gank without worrying about their tank)

Instanced encounters(WH that require gang to enter)

Character specialization implants(boost to DPS while reducing tank or opposite or boost to repaired amount while severely limiting DPS/Tank).

Boss ships that require the tank and gank of a coordinated gang.(And maybe even encounters where you CC a healer to let you break the spider tank of the NPC).

Veloni
Posted - 2010.01.21 06:38:00 - [51]
 

And then what? Get bored with the encounters that are ingame and ask for more?

It's the same thing here again, your asking for more content, while eve isn't a "themepark mmo"

With what the post above me suggested + ccp having to push out new pve-content constantly then this is just becoming wow in space.

And what's with the constant, yes you can do them in groups, but then I make less ISK.
So what? I thought that this game was about grouping up, having fun, having some laughs and having a great evening.

Not, I'm gonna just solo because that way I can grind every last ISK to the max for every second of eve I play.

When we do sleeper ops, its about doing something together, having fun, we are running our c5 ops with way to much people then needed, wich basicly gives you less isk/person, because of the max amount of anomaly's you can do, but we don't care, the more the merrier.

I do not say that ccp should totally overlook the pve side of the game, but don't ask for eve to be turned into something it isn't. If you want pure pve action, then this maybe isn't the game for you.

Admiral Ironbar
Caldari
Posted - 2010.01.23 02:52:00 - [52]
 

to the OP if you have a good small group of friends you should be doing them together. My corp all plays together when we mission or pirate/Pvp.

Nothing like hammering out 3 lvl 4s all at the same time. Teamspeak makes it 100X funner.

Dark Drifter
Amarr
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.25 16:08:00 - [53]
 

ok i see plenty of really good ideas here although there are lots of DO WH OPS quotes. i do C3 in my legion but its only works out in my favour if im alone because i barley make enough to replace my crystals/HAMS, not vary many good salvage drops.

My additive is this:

fleet mission providers. set to standings
1 for each level for each faction (gal navy/cald navy/minmi navy/amar navy)

LVL1 fleet missions: need a fleet of 2 or more payout of lvl 2 mission with Tailored missions primarily mining/combat missions

LVL2 fleet missions: need fleet of 2 or more, payout of a lvl 3 mission, hacking/analysing/combat missions

LVL 3 fleet missions: need fleet of 3 or more, same as LVL 2 fleet missions just upping the ante.

LVL 4 FLEET missions: need a fleet of 3 or more, heavy combat missions with multiple objectives,

Ie: mission retrieve all stolen goods,

primary)retrieve mission objective.
Secondary) retrieve contraband goods (hack)
third) destroy all habitation modules (combat)
forth) collect all rare ores from site (mining)
fifth) salvage the overseers wreck (analyser)
(each objective would give some kind of reward like an inplant, extra LP, more isk and so on, maby have the objective given by sub corporations of the parent faction giving LP for that faction)

spawns could be fleet size related so
for a fleet of 5 amby 2 xtra spawns (like cap ships and sleepers)
with chance spawns of normal rats (not always garanteed) keeps us on our toes,
never leave the miner on his own.
And a haction rat spaen chance.

Its not perfact but it would add some flavour

Ellmar
Posted - 2010.01.25 16:56:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Foraven
There is also the issue that doing missions/plexes in team require coordination, something that can become very complicated as you add more players and end up taking much more time and energy than doing it solo. Something must be done to make join venture not only fun but viable alternative to solo grind.


So you want teamwork but not teamwork, I think you're confused. A badly organized mining op with a afk mining command ship with bonuses parked at a pos and with no backup/hauling going on is probably the closest to your teamwork but not teamwork experience you crave for.

Prostheir
Posted - 2010.01.26 13:47:00 - [55]
 

This is very relevant. As a new player, my low-skillpoint status makes me more of a burden on missions than an aid. But I don't want any radical difficulty changes, rather, I suggest that CCP moderately increase the amount of standings, or quality of drops based off having lower-skillpoint pilots in the area. That way, instead of my corp mates begrudgingly allowing me to scuttle around in their wake, they would be happy, even possibly seek my accompaniment. It may not require active participation on the lower-skillpoint pilot's part, but I think exposure to the missions is more important. Of course, capsuleers would abuse this like nobody's business, and have alts kept low-skillpoint just so they could farm rewards. Perhaps, instead of increasing the rewards of doing missions with tag-alongs, CCP could just decease the standings/monentary/drop rewards of doing them solo (slightly).

Bodega Cat
Posted - 2010.01.26 17:21:00 - [56]
 

I can't believe no ones mentioned adding Vita/Mana bars, and taunt buttons/ heal buttons yet!!!?

All kidding aside, the problem with group content development inside particularly safe environments is its at risk of being meta gamed down to a 2 man effort by its player base anyway.

CCP does have one important lance though. They have already in fact MADE successfully difficult group content in class 5's 6's.... If they can just figure out a way to appropriate it to more aspects of the game (safer areas of K-space), we could perhaps see this sometime soon.

I for one, take offense though to the fact that the original post out right dismisses W-space when it in fact, should be where this player aims to go right now in the immediacy to try it out. He'll have a better idea after of how his vision of group content could perhaps shape up after.



Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.01.26 19:07:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Bodega Cat
I can't believe no ones mentioned adding Vita/Mana bars, and taunt buttons/ heal buttons yet!!!?


lets see, you have hp bars already, mana/cap is there, you can lock people up and not shoot, and we have remote rep mods.

all that stuff is already there Neutral

Loxatl Deathsquad
Posted - 2010.01.27 06:23:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Loxatl Deathsquad on 27/01/2010 06:27:17
Edited by: Loxatl Deathsquad on 27/01/2010 06:25:06
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 18/01/2010 10:43:06
Originally by: thisisnotmikaldrey

and then what ?

people will work out how many ships it takes to spawn X amount of NPC's, work out the caps, work out how many for officer etc even work out how many ships they can bring in to spawn stuff at the limit they can tank. thats a huge isk faucet liable for abuse . . not like in sleeper plexes with caps spawning guardians . . . . Rolling Eyes


As if blitzing missions for LP isn't already a huge ISK faucet? I'm not asking for it to be terribly more profitable than it is now - I'm just asking for it not to be less profitable to run missions with friends. Rolling Eyes


Its not less profitable to run missions with friends even now.

EG:

Mission A takes 60 min to complete by you returning 20 mill isk.

Mission A takes 20 min to complete with you and a mate returning 10 mill isk each. Thus 60 min allows you to complete 3 diff missions and hence net 30 mill.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Zane Lucanus
whose to say you can't run level 4's with multiple people. My main, when he lived in non worm-hole space, would get together a few more experienced corp memebers, and some newbs and run level 4's.

This way the newbies get the standing boost, and make more money than they would normally, and it's a group effort.

Another though would be, to fly non mission specific ships. Fit your ship for pvp and then go run some missions. I always though of missions as paying practice for pvp.

or you could just ship down as a fleet and try to run 4's with a bunch of t1 cruisers


You can run L4s as a group, but each person individually makes significantly less ISK/hr than if they were running them solo. When I'm running L4s with my corp, I would typically see about half the ISK/20 mins (bounty) that I make solo. I would additionally make about 1/5th of the LP that I would normally make. Thus, I went from 60-80M ISK/hr to 20M ISK/hr. Yeah, running missions as a group is real ****ing profitable.

Bear in mind that we were running 2-3 gank Marauders and 2-3 gank battleships with 40-50M SP avg SP.

-Liang
Your doing it wrong then. Should be much quicker to complete missions in a group, hence allowing you to complete more missions in the same time frame.

Originally by: Prostheir
This is very relevant. As a new player, my low-skillpoint status makes me more of a burden on missions than an aid.
How so, you wait till aggro is gained by others then aid in adding dps. Im not sure how you could be a burden unless your gang is full of fail.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.27 06:44:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/01/2010 06:46:37
Originally by: Loxatl Deathsquad

Its not less profitable to run missions with friends even now.

EG:
Mission A takes 60 min to complete by you returning 20 mill isk.

Mission A takes 20 min to complete with you and a mate returning 10 mill isk each. Thus 60 min allows you to complete 3 diff missions and hence net 30 mill.



Except that it doesn't take 60 minutes to complete solo, it takes 15-20 tops. Imagine if you will that it takes 3 minutes to complete the mission, accept the next mission, manage loot, and change hardeners. Then it takes 2 minutes to get to your mission, 20 minutes to run it, and 2 minutes to get back to the mission.

The time that you can possibly have saved from having two people in the mission is 20/2. However, it doesn't really work that way since any parallelism has an implicit overhead cost (locking, communication, overstrike, etc). So your 20 minutes becomes 12-13 instead, right? So suppose you get 3500 LP and 2.5M ISK, 10M in bounties, and 5M in loot for this mission.

SOLO MISSIONING
Total Completion Time: 20 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 27 minutes
ISK/pilot/hr: 18M ISK/mission / 27 mins/mission * 60 mins/hr = 40M ISK/hr
Total ISK/hr: 80M ISK/hr

GROUP MISSIONING
Total Completion Time: 12 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 19 minutes
ISK/pilot/hr: 18M ISK/mission / 19 mins/mission * 60 mins/hr / 2 pilots = 28M ISK/hr
Total ISK/hr: 56M ISK/hr

The real kick in the nuts isn't the 2 minutes of overhead - it's that they're sitting around while you're ****ing about in station. This can be mitigated, but the fact remains that there's extra time spent between missions (sometimes a lot of it too) compared to solo mission running.

Quote:
Your doing it wrong then. Should be much quicker to complete missions in a group, hence allowing you to complete more missions in the same time frame.


You aren't factoring the overhead costs of running the missions.

Quote:
How so, you wait till aggro is gained by others then aid in adding dps. Im not sure how you could be a burden unless your gang is full of fail.


He's a burden because I'm putting out 1200 DPS to his 200 DPS. Thus he's effectively leaching off my ISK/hr (instead of 20 minutes now it's 19.5 - yet he shares half the bounty and mission reward).

-Liang

Ed: In one 2 hour 19 minute session (from me sitting down at the pc to me deciding to do something else):
- Right Hand of Zazzmatazz
- Smuggler Interception
- Gone Berserk
- Blockade
- Recon 1/3
- Recon 2/3
- Recon 3/3
- Enemies Abound (DECLINED)
- Serpentis Spies
- Attack of the Drones
- Smuggler Interception, Blood Raiders

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.01.27 07:38:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

SOLO MISSIONING
Total Completion Time: 20 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 27 minutes
ISK/pilot/hr: 18M ISK/mission / 27 mins/mission * 60 mins/hr = 40M ISK/hr
Total ISK/hr: 80M ISK/hr

GROUP MISSIONING
Total Completion Time: 12 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 19 minutes
ISK/pilot/hr: 18M ISK/mission / 19 mins/mission * 60 mins/hr / 2 pilots = 28M ISK/hr
Total ISK/hr: 56M ISK/hr



Add scale to the above where you get 3-10 people doing the same mission, you'll eventually arrive at a dead minimum time for spawn waves. Just like everything in EVE, the effectiveness of a mission runnner reduces as you put one or more of them in the same pool for std L1-L4 missions Very Happy

As for the "Total isk/hr" figures in both, wut? Do you mean total isk made in a 2 hr period?
Looks like LP has been ignored, but that's not important for the illustration.


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