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blankseplocked Is suicide ganking getting out of control?
 
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Ravenclaw2kk
Minmatar
Blue Republic
Posted - 2010.01.19 10:53:00 - [91]
 

Some good ideas however bonus/malus insurance would have a negative impact on consetual pvp and kill things like rvb.

SPECTROOPER X1122
Posted - 2010.01.19 11:45:00 - [92]
 

I hate to say it, but then again, no I don't. Whats the risk/reward for empire miners? You all go on and on about the risk/reward factor for gankers, but if you guys are 100% absolutely safe, wheres the risk for you? We all know no mining barge, even the little ones, have to worry about empire rats!! You mean to tell me this game isn't fair because you don't get 100% reward and 0% risk because one day you could randomly be ganked by some idiot in a BS? Heck even the mission runners at least have SOME risk of dieing. Miners have none, save for the suicide happy rejects! The insurance issue, shouldn't be changed, and I promise if CCP does it people will be ****ed! Ever accidently fire off a mod at the wrong person and get concordokken? Well if you had your way, CCP would tell you to screw off because concord killed you and not a player, see the potential for serious petition issues there?!

Just suck it up, don't be stupid while mining, and deal with it! If you don't wanna pay your $15 a month, move on, star trek will be out soon enough, or theres always WoW! A REAL easy way for miners to get away from suicide gankers, get into a corporation, get some logistic pilots throwin you RRs, 2 or 3 large shield extenders should negate most suicide ganks :-D

Theres a way around everything instead of complaining to mommy and daddy (CCP) figure out how to make it NOT affect you!

Winterjack
Posted - 2010.01.19 11:50:00 - [93]
 

Quote:
I wouldn't press on the "cold and harsh" bit as much if this wasn't the C&P forum section. Notorious for people spouting the mantra, yet unwilling to apply it to themselves.


Quite agreed. Cold and harsh when you ninjaloot mission items or gank hulks. But pwetty please force more noobs into my greedy hands cuz I can't be bothered playing with those who might fight back. And best me, maybe.
A tad too easy, me thinks.

Originally by: Ravenclaw2kk
Some good ideas however bonus/malus insurance would have a negative impact on consetual pvp and kill things like rvb.


Yeah, that's true, you're right. Guess you can't have everything.
I'll stick to no insurance for concordokken tho :)

Zill
Friends of Honor
Posted - 2010.01.19 11:56:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: Zill on 19/01/2010 12:01:01
Edited by: Zill on 19/01/2010 11:59:14
trooper how you can talk it tough online with a strait face is beyond me. Simple facts are, the gankers refuse to even acknowledge that they can go to lowsec an 0.0 to "fight" because as we all know, they get shot back at there.

They also refuse to admit that free kills for them an 100% loss for all miners an day 1 players is just fine an as it should be, when in fact its a joke an does nothing but provide the teenage gankers with free targets in total safety.

Mining is a very low earner for isk an incredibly boring game for those who enjoy it. yet you want to make it 10x harder for them an have a outlet for you to chest beat about "keepin it real brah!.... You are not, you are trying to turn highsec into a nice comfy playground for you an yours to harras an grief at will.

Kill rights ? lol leave it out. When a hulk pilot gets kill rights on 4 Tempest pilots, whats he gonna do ? provide them with more targets to pick on....

You get no repercussions to griefing at all, Sec status is a joke always has been. kill rights, done that one, whats left ? nothing!

You get insurance back on ship an then can just off an do it again for the giggles.With no loss no financial loss at all. While the miner could be wiped out. (though you wouldn't care) Some guy who managed to save up for his hulk for months in between life only to have you laugh at him as 4 of you crush him at station.

In conclusion, ganking/griefing is a mechanic/after thought of EvE that is nothing but a grief session for one side an game destroying for other.It isn't "hard an harsh" its a computer game nothing more.

Every single miner I know says if they removed insurance an made you griefers lose full isk value as well then none would give a ****. But you keep trying to shift the focus off that detail in hopes people wont take notice.

SPECTROOPER X1122
Posted - 2010.01.19 12:07:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: SPECTROOPER X1122 on 19/01/2010 12:13:45
Originally by: Zill
Edited by: Zill on 19/01/2010 11:59:14
trooper how you can talk it tough online with a strait face is beyond me. Simple facts are, the gankers refuse to even acknowledge that they can go to lowsec an 0.0 to "fight" because as we all know, they get shot back at there.

They also refuse to admit that free kills for them an 100% loss for all miners an day 1 players is just fine an as it should be, when in fact its a joke an does nothing but provide the teenage gankers with free targets in total safety.

Mining is a very low earner for isk an incredibly boring game for those who enjoy it. yet you want to make it 10x harder for them an have a outlet for you to chest beat about "keepin it real brah!.... You are not, you are trying to turn highsec into a nice comfy playground for you an yours to harras an grief at will.





Kill rights ? lol leave it out. When a hulk pilot gets kill rights on 4 Tempest pilots, whats he gonna do ? provide them with more targets to pick on....

You get no repercussions to griefing at all, Sec status is a joke always has been. kill rights, done that one, whats left ? nothing!

You get insurance back on ship an then can just off an do it again for the giggles.With no loss no financial loss at all. While the miner could be wiped out. (though you wouldn't care) Some guy who managed to save up for his hulk for months in between life only to have you laugh at him as 4 of you crush him at station.

In conclusion, ganking/griefing is a mechanic/after thought of EvE that is nothing but a grief session for one side an game destroying for other.

Every single miner I know says if they removed insurance an made you griefers lose full isk value as well then none would give a ****. But you keep trying to shift the focus off that detail in hopes people wont take notice.



You ever tried going from -10 back to a positve before? Its brain melting more than mining, if you're LUCK 4 hours in 0.0 will get you maybe 0.80 sec status, TOPS! I'm not trying to turn empire into anything, even with hulkageddon, theres 1000s of more miners than there are gankers, and tbh, there just aren't enough gankers to really worry about! And killrights are still redeemable man, I've had kill rights on people and caught em when they weren't looking! I've done high sec mining as well. problem really is, the macro miners. Took 5 mackinaws out today, all being run by the same guy, even told us that in local. So i ask you, killing a few people in empire, once in awhile, and typically randomly, is it really so bad? There are ways around getting "ganked" and they require people to be intelligent and work together, go figure that thats one of the staples of the eve life style... working together.... hmmmmmmmm just accept the fact that empire, is safer, but its not perfectly safe. The RL isn't safe, and if you want a totally safe video game where you play the market, play simcity, oh, wait... thats not even safe!~!!!!!

*In addition, gankers do lose when they gank you insurance doesn't cover 100% of ISK involved, nor has it at any point eve, secondly, the sec status grind is a harsh one CCP made it slower than snot and boosted the modifier if you do lose sec status, had a guy go from +3.75 to -5.96 today from 5 ships and 5 pods, it'll take him weeks to fix that, and thats weeks when he could be making money instead of system hopping in 0.0 hoping not to get popped. seriously, if you're gonna whine about how bad you have it, why don't you look at it from the otherside, infact, go suicide gank someone and tell me how much of a pain it really is! people spend hours and hours getting stuff ready to do that, multiple accounts, moving equipment around, blah blah blah
every hulk that gets popped in empire, takes at least 1 person at least an hour of his life to do it, and he may not even succeed.


Winterjack
Posted - 2010.01.19 12:10:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Winterjack on 19/01/2010 12:18:05
Originally by: SPECTROOPER X1122
I hate to say it, but then again, no I don't. Whats the risk/reward for empire miners?


Suicide ganks. You might've noticed that no one said they shouldn't happen.
Of course, if you get out of station in a bantam and get ganked and podded, you realize there's something terribly wrong in denmark.
Also, the rewards aren't exactly fabulous.

Quote:
You all go on and on about the risk/reward factor for gankers, but if you guys are 100% absolutely safe


We're not. Do I have to read the rest of your sentence before declaring your logic flawed, or can I do it on the spot?

Quote:
You mean to tell me this game isn't fair because you don't get 100% reward and 0% risk because one day you could randomly be ganked by some idiot in a BS?


No. Try reading every once in a while, helps the braincells.
We claim that if the gankers stand to lose nothing - which is exactly what it is now - even the smallest ships (bantam, navitas, whathaveyou) are reasonable targets.

There's no defense against a gank when all you spend is the time to fit the ship. Having a tanked faction hulk or a hulk with a civilian shield booster does not make a difference: the first one will be ganked with 6 bships, the second with 3, that's all the difference it makes.

Quote:
The insurance issue, shouldn't be changed, and I promise if CCP does it people will be ****ed! Ever accidently fire off a mod at the wrong person and get concordokken?


Nope, never happened. Must be cuz I'm a carebear I suppose?

Anyway, so you want the right to suicide gank, but you don't want to risk anything in it?
You want the miners to have a risk/reward applied to them yet you don't want to risk anything yourself, except some cheap fittings?
The risk/reward mechanism, by the way, is already applied to miners. Mine in empire -> end up with a bunch of useless trit that sells for cheap. Mine in W-space -> end up with arkonor. It's risk/reward.
Now YOU tell ME where the risk/reward is suiganking, having 100% payout.

Quote:
Well if you had your way, CCP would tell you to screw off because concord killed you and not a player, see the potential for serious petition issues there?!


Uhm no. And I don't get this sentence. Care to explain yourself?

Quote:
Just suck it up, don't be stupid while mining, and deal with it! If you don't wanna pay your $15 a month, move on, star trek will be out soon enough, or theres always WoW!


Just suck it up, don't be stupid and gank ships that pay out!
If you don't wanna pay your $15 a month, move on, you can always kill noobs in some korean RPG. There's plenty.

If the gank is free, like it is now, or profitable even if you don't kill the target, there is NO DEFENSE. And this should be obvious to any kid over 5 that can do math.

I'll clarify.
TARGET: Retriever (5-6k EHP, 6 millions fitted)
GANKER: 1 Dominiex
RESULT: Concordokken, ret survives.

Darn. Well, I got 10M at least. Try again.

TARGET: Retriever (5-6k EHP, 6 millions fitted)
GANKER: 8 Dominixes
RESULT: Concordokken, ret in pieces.

Now, if insurance worked as in real life, no one would use 8 battleships, for a total cost of about 320millions, to gank a retriever for 6 millions maximum loot.
Yet those 8 dominixes costed a total (evecentral) of 32M x8 = 256M, and insurance paid for said dominixes is 350M. Even if they didn't gank, it would be profitable.

Now tell me again that the system is fine.

BUT - TO clarify my opinion:
Quote:
So i ask you, killing a few people in empire, once in awhile, and typically randomly, is it really so bad?


No. Actually I enjoy it, it spices up things.
But I'd like to know they came there to kill me knowing their risks, and knowing they better make good use of that chance.
If any 2-bit wannabe pirate with a downloaded fit comes and tries to gank me in hisec just cuz, and I'm flying that junk of a barge (1 med slot, 2 lo slots, as much capacitor as an athron, and doesn't reach 3k EHP)...

SPECTROOPER X1122
Posted - 2010.01.19 12:28:00 - [97]
 

if you can't figure out the risks for the gankers, then obviously you don't know what you're talking about. Go, gank a few people, and live on the other side of the world for a change. You might find it sucks alot more than you think!


Herr Wilkus
Posted - 2010.01.19 12:29:00 - [98]
 

Ah, Zill. Didn't you learn anything from the last thread? Its like you are spewing the same nonsense, though you've been refuted over and over.

Kill rights are not a joke. It means any one of your ganked targets can aggress you at anytime - for an entire month.

Finding gankers in space is quite easy with locator agents and a little patience.

'Non -10 secstat' suicide gankers are currently forced to rat to build up their sec status - which means that suicide gankers are often in space, with a PVE-setup for ratting.

Sure, if you choose to min-max a Hulk pilot, your kill rights are going to be worthless. But if you choose to waste months on stuff like Exhumers V, Refinery Efficiency V and Scrapmetal Processing, instead of learnining a few combat skills - thats your own lookout. Not CCPs. When you min-max, the 'min side' of char development hurts sometimes.

My own Hulk-alt probably mines a bit slower than some...because I spent training time learning combat skills as well. MY Hulk alt learned how to probe, fly a Vagabond, and can use T2 Projectiles.

I guarantee you that any kill rights I get would NOT be worthless.

Unfortunately, I have no killrights, because I haven't lost a Hulk yet. Laughing
Why?
-I have a 'real' 27K EHP buffer tank, more overheated - and not just a Small Booster.
-I stay aligned and moving at 75% of full speed for an instawarp, which makes me invulnerable to suicide ganks.
-During Hulkaggedon I flew an insured Covetor. (mainly to see if someone would attack it)

Those last three hand tips work for ANY Hulk miner - but for some reason (hint: their lazy desire to mine AFK), they never do this. Rolling Eyes

Kaaii
Caldari
Kaaii-Net Research Labs
KAAII-NET
Posted - 2010.01.19 12:33:00 - [99]
 



Quote:
Kill rights are not a joke. It means any one of your ganked targets can aggress you at anytime - for an entire month.



Now if only this extended to "accounts" and not throw away alts, it would mean something then, yes....?


Drexsis Rozia
Mortis Angelus
Posted - 2010.01.19 12:52:00 - [100]
 

I just wanna say this, I'm an alt, but I'm a combat alt used for fun pew pew and the general shooting anything that moves, I killed 6 mackinaws, 5 Hulks, and a few pods, just for the luls of it, I lost money on every single gank, even with full insurance. The insurance doesn't cover everything.

Hulks were made with Null sec in mind, not empire, they even say so in their descriptions....

You don't wanna risk so much getting ganked? Fly t1, they're insurable just like my ships!

Don't go AFK for anything in eve unless you're sittin inside a POS or a station..... someone WILL kill you eventually

Stop emo raging because you die, everyone dies in eve, even the -10 alts that people use in jita, still cost them money to use one way or another. And they still have to deal with the fact that while they're at -10, thats all that toon is good for, it can't do anything else.

LAST BUT NO LEAST (CAPS FTW) UBER TROLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QASWmv9iKuM


Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.01.19 13:17:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Drexsis Rozia
I just wanna say this, I'm an alt, but I'm a combat alt used for fun pew pew and the general shooting anything that moves, I killed 6 mackinaws, 5 Hulks, and a few pods, just for the luls of it, I lost money on every single gank, even with full insurance. The insurance doesn't cover everything.

Hulks were made with Null sec in mind, not empire, they even say so in their descriptions....

You don't wanna risk so much getting ganked? Fly t1, they're insurable just like my ships!

Don't go AFK for anything in eve unless you're sittin inside a POS or a station..... someone WILL kill you eventually

Stop emo raging because you die, everyone dies in eve, even the -10 alts that people use in jita, still cost them money to use one way or another. And they still have to deal with the fact that while they're at -10, thats all that toon is good for, it can't do anything else.

LAST BUT NO LEAST (CAPS FTW) UBER TROLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QASWmv9iKuM




Use an alpha tempest... 70m for the ship, 30m for the insurance, 2m for fittings, payout 104m. You make 2m profit on it until mineral prices go up Very Happy

Winterjack
Posted - 2010.01.19 13:38:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Intense Thinker
Use an alpha tempest... 70m for the ship, 30m for the insurance, 2m for fittings, payout 104m. You make 2m profit on it until mineral prices go up Very Happy


Just like I said.
Won't go up, by all likelyness - there will always be a number of miners thinking "it's free, I didn't pay it". They had a small hi after hag2, for obvious reasons.

Spectrooper: so enlighten me. What's the risk? Concordokken? if you ain't smart enough to factor it in, you're not smart enough to gank anything.
Sec status hit? Yeah. You just have to avoid -10, and you can afk-rat in a junkship while flying the hauler/missioner/miner alt. I've been told all pirates have one hisec alt. Hell, if any big badass pirate kills you, thank him, it's more money.
The hulks fighting back? All miner hi-slots are dedicated to stripminers, my aunt and her dog know that.
So what is the risk in ganking an exhumer or barge?

HAG2 was fun. I enjoyed it. But even Helicity Boson, who MADE hag2, claims the insurance thing is ****ed up. Guess spectrooper knows better? Come on.

I don't mind the suicide gank. It adds to the game. I would vote "no" to whomever plans to make hisec perfectly safe.
But I say there needs to be more tactics in it - going in with 8 smartbombs (or what have you) and let fly regardless of what you're hitting is... lame. Make it so the gankers need to take into account the enterprise risk and opportunity costs... just like everyone else.

Arec Bardwin
Posted - 2010.01.19 14:01:00 - [103]
 

Insurance payouts for concordokken should be removed.

Harsher sec penalty for illegal actions in highsec (and perhaps lower penalties in lowsec?)

Concord should POD lawless scum in highsec. They blow up the ship and kill its entire crew, why not kill the pilot as well? Wink

Soldis
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.01.19 14:07:00 - [104]
 

This has been done many times before.

Transport ships won't save you. A -10 alt can live forever in jita and buy, fit and undock ships with impunity. They work in combination with a scout/loot alt.

Every lazy griefer should be doing this.

Platoon Sergeant
Posted - 2010.01.19 14:14:00 - [105]
 

Yes please nerf insurance so we can flood all the hisec belts further and watch the T1 economy deflate further as even more minerals get put on to the market.

There is a serious issue when you leave the game for 4 months, come back and the price of Battleships has dropped by 10-15mil. Why should I invest money into the economy when I can just wait another couple months when everything is even cheaper?

How about this: nerf module repro and highsec belts, but buff highsec grav site spawn rate. Miners now have a safer but harder job and mineral prices rise, saving the economy \o/.

Tuberider
Pothouse Cartel
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.01.19 15:04:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Arec Bardwin
Insurance payouts for concordokken should be removed.

Harsher sec penalty for illegal actions in highsec (and perhaps lower penalties in lowsec?)

Concord should POD lawless scum in highsec. They blow up the ship and kill its entire crew, why not kill the pilot as well? Wink



and your reason being ?

In over 5 years my alt has never been suicide ganked.
Why ? because i keep my eye's open and play the game like its meant too be played.
Not afk hauling/mining/farming but actually being carefull where i go, what i do and who's watching me do it.
EVE is a game of survival, It should never be done AFK and high sec should have its dangers too. YARRRR!!

Ravenclaw2kk
Minmatar
Blue Republic
Posted - 2010.01.19 15:09:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Ravenclaw2kk on 19/01/2010 15:25:42
Sorry i really gotta pick some holes in some of your arguments

Originally by: Herr Wilkus
Its like you are spewing the same nonsense, though you've been refuted over and over.

Kill rights are not a joke. It means any one of your ganked targets can aggress you at anytime - for an entire month.

Finding gankers in space is quite easy with locator agents and a little patience.


Sure, if you choose to min-max a Hulk pilot, your kill rights are going to be worthless. But if you choose to waste months on stuff like Exhumers V, Refinery Efficiency V and Scrapmetal Processing, instead of learnining a few combat skills - thats your own lookout. Not CCPs. When you min-max, the 'min side' of char development hurts sometimes.

My own Hulk-alt probably mines a bit slower than some...because I spent training time learning combat skills as well. MY Hulk alt learned how to probe, fly a Vagabond, and can use T2 Projectiles.




So in fact you would like to force people to play the game the way you want them to play? Turns out the game ain't so much of a sandbox any more.

Originally by: Herr Wilkus

I guarantee you that any kill rights I get would NOT be worthless.

Unfortunately, I have no killrights, because I haven't lost a Hulk yet. Laughing
Why?
-I have a 'real' 27K EHP buffer tank, more overheated - and not just a Small Booster.




Some people don;t have the SP

Originally by: Herr Wilkus

-I stay aligned and moving at 75% of full speed for an instawarp, which makes me invulnerable to suicide ganks.
-During Hulkaggedon I flew an insured Covetor. (mainly to see if someone would attack it)

Those last three hand tips work for ANY Hulk miner - but for some reason (hint: their lazy desire to mine AFK), they never do this. Rolling Eyes



good tip and i agree to a point, sometimes it is impossible to do that, read: dual-boxing
Btw. i am not a miner. my main is a pvper with only combat skills. i still disagree with the current mechanic. But that is my right as a (double) paying subscriber. You also have the same right so feel free to debate my opinion but please avoid flaming.

Originally by: Tuberider


In over 5 years my alt has never been suicide ganked.



Guess you've been lucky or you pay attention at all times even when hauling nothing of any particular value.. i hadn't been suicided for the entire time i have been playing until recently. And the suicide ganks were for nothing valuable

Tuberider
Pothouse Cartel
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.01.19 15:36:00 - [108]
 

I saw your posts and you were hauling afk

rest my case Rolling Eyes

Ravenclaw2kk
Minmatar
Blue Republic
Posted - 2010.01.19 15:49:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Ravenclaw2kk on 19/01/2010 16:15:25
Edited by: Ravenclaw2kk on 19/01/2010 16:11:53
yup i was it's my fault.. i never haul anything of value afk. but it sees the standards of suicide ganking has gone down and they will now gank anything as there is only profit in doing so


Edit - lol, just doing a Rens run atm, at the keyboard this time (mosly) just saw another suicide gank.. 2 battlecruisers with all meta 1 mods got a industrial that dropped 10m isk worth of loot (i grabbed it all, figured it was payback).. hmm do that 3 times an hour and it becomes pretty profitable.

Edit 2 - if they'd just put 1 lo-sec system with (uber gate guns) between major trade hubs/regions then it would solve most of these problems. no afk hauling thru + the gankers have a decent chance to get anything worthwhile

Herr Wilkus
Posted - 2010.01.19 16:41:00 - [110]
 

On tanking a Hulk up to 27K EHP: Its an easy T2 fit, and stacked up against the time required to train a Hulk, training time is minimal - especially for someone who 'should' be interested in protecting their investment. I haven't even factored in Overheating, hardwires and implants yet.

Further, I was able to tank a Hulk with straight T1-named stuff, and hit nearly 23K. If you stay out of 0.5 space, that puts you out of reach of ANY solo ganker.

No, 'I don't have the skills 2 tank a 200M T2 Exhumer' is a BS-argument, a red herring.

The REAL argument is that miners don't want to use their lowslots or rig slots for anything other than 'faster mining/more cargo'.

Goes like this:

SmartMiner #1 stays ATK and aligned while mining - he can fit for 'max cargo/max yield' and survives ganks 100% of the time, guaranteed. Requires vigilence, and AFK/macro mining is impossible.

SmartMiner #2 TANKS his fit up to 25-30K EHP. He realizes that if 5 Battleships drop on his head when he's AFK, he'll die - but most gank groups won't bother because they either don't have the DPS, or have easier targets nearby. He is safer, especially in 0.7+ space, though he sacrifices some cargo capacity/mining yield.

SmartMiner #3 opts to mine in a T1 Covetor. It mines at about 85% the rate of a Hulk - costs less than 10% of a Hulk - and is FULLY insurable. Hulkaggedon participants, after all, didn't really give a crap about Covetors.

Unfortunately, we end up with the Whineminer.
WhineMiner doesn't want to pay attention while mining, and doesn't want to slow down his mining by fitting a tank.

He gets popped while watching 'Friends' reruns, so he complains on the forums and lobbies CCP incessantly for rule changes which make suicide ganking more difficult/expensive. After all: if someone kills my 200M Hulk - the aggressor should lose 200M as well because THATS FAIR.

On killrights:
Training combat skills is a choice. If you don't do it, your 'kill rights' will be worthless.
Thats how the game is played. If you think that spending a month training Exhumers V for an extra 3% yield is worth it - rather than learning how to fly a T1 gank cruiser, fine - but its your choice. (Though I do think 'transferable' kill rights would be an awesome improvement!)

Doesn't mean that kill rights are worthless. If they are, your skill training choices made it so.

It would be like not bothering to train up probe skills - and then *****ing about not being able to access wormholes.


Ravenclaw2kk
Minmatar
Blue Republic
Posted - 2010.01.19 16:55:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Herr Wilkus
On tanking a Hulk up to 27K EHP: Its an easy T2 fit, and stacked up against the time required to train a Hulk, training time is minimal - especially for someone who 'should' be interested in protecting their investment. I haven't even factored in Overheating, hardwires and implants yet.

Further, I was able to tank a Hulk with straight T1-named stuff, and hit nearly 23K. If you stay out of 0.5 space, that puts you out of reach of ANY solo ganker.

No, 'I don't have the skills 2 tank a 200M T2 Exhumer' is a BS-argument, a red herring.

The REAL argument is that miners don't want to use their lowslots or rig slots for anything other than 'faster mining/more cargo'.

Goes like this:

SmartMiner #1 stays ATK and aligned while mining - he can fit for 'max cargo/max yield' and survives ganks 100% of the time, guaranteed. Requires vigilence, and AFK/macro mining is impossible.

SmartMiner #2 TANKS his fit up to 25-30K EHP. He realizes that if 5 Battleships drop on his head when he's AFK, he'll die - but most gank groups won't bother because they either don't have the DPS, or have easier targets nearby. He is safer, especially in 0.7+ space, though he sacrifices some cargo capacity/mining yield.

SmartMiner #3 opts to mine in a T1 Covetor. It mines at about 85% the rate of a Hulk - costs less than 10% of a Hulk - and is FULLY insurable. Hulkaggedon participants, after all, didn't really give a crap about Covetors.

Unfortunately, we end up with the Whineminer.
WhineMiner doesn't want to pay attention while mining, and doesn't want to slow down his mining by fitting a tank.

He gets popped while watching 'Friends' reruns, so he complains on the forums and lobbies CCP incessantly for rule changes which make suicide ganking more difficult/expensive. After all: if someone kills my 200M Hulk - the aggressor should lose 200M as well because THATS FAIR.

On killrights:
Training combat skills is a choice. If you don't do it, your 'kill rights' will be worthless.
Thats how the game is played. If you think that spending a month training Exhumers V for an extra 3% yield is worth it - rather than learning how to fly a T1 gank cruiser, fine - but its your choice. (Though I do think 'transferable' kill rights would be an awesome improvement!)

Doesn't mean that kill rights are worthless. If they are, your skill training choices made it so.

It would be like not bothering to train up probe skills - and then *****ing about not being able to access wormholes.




ok i'm not a hulk pilot, neither is my alt. If i were then yea.. i'd prolly try to tank it even if it weren;t possible to tank hulkageddon, i'd just dock up over that period.

My argument is based on t1 ship gankage.. my alt is close to 5m SP and can not effectively tank a t1 hauler of mining barge, and yes, she does have engineering skills. being ganked for 60m isk doesn't really affect me, however for some newer players who are just starting into trade and have less SP (remember how long your first 5m sp took?) it can seem extremely unfair..older skilled gankers always win n00b loose..

Again you can refute my argument with saying don't afk. But really would you stay at your keyboard to transport 20m isk worth of product (not profit) 25 jumps or so?

Winterjack
Posted - 2010.01.19 17:24:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Ravenclaw2kk
ok i'm not a hulk pilot, neither is my alt. If i were then yea.. i'd prolly try to tank it even if it weren;t possible to tank hulkageddon, i'd just dock up over that period.


Smart. And do something else.

Quote:
being ganked for 60m isk doesn't really affect me, however for some newer players who are just starting into trade and have less SP (remember how long your first 5m sp took?) it can seem extremely unfair..older skilled gankers always win n00b loose..


The unfair part is the no cost part, as made obvious by intense thinker above.
Suicide Ganking a bantam with a battleship is profitable. If that's not ****ed up, I don't know what is.
Incidentally, hulkageddoners say exactly what I just said here - it's on HAG2 blog.

Quote:
Again you can refute my argument with saying don't afk. But really would you stay at your keyboard to transport 20m isk worth of product (not profit) 25 jumps or so?


If you don't that is your choice. If you get ganked because you're afk, that's your fault. Can blame it only on yourself.

OTOH, having tank and not transporting highly sought for goods and being ATK, and reacting should all make you a less interesting target.
IF ganking costed anything, gankers would avoid noobs and go for the big prey, and if there's no prey they'd wait for it.
But since it doesn't cost a thing after all, in fact it's profitable even if it fails... then what the heck, go take that retriever... if we're lucky we'll split a million or two in loot.
Suiciding a battleship that costed 50 millions.

Yeah. That's "fair".
Ridicolous: I can't understand how anyone can claim to believe this without being a complete moron or in absolute bad faith. But maybe I'm missing something.

Oh, and you'll tell me to tank the ret, I suppose? I can get from 2.4k EHP to 5k for a whopping 180millions (EVEHQ prices). Or, I can buy 20 retrievers including fittings with that amount of money, and wait for the gankers to come to me, and if I'm not fast enough I'll die.

I just wish they had to make the same considerations about costs. But even suggesting it is "whining". Get a grip.

Chipan Asty
Posted - 2010.01.19 17:34:00 - [113]
 

So, 'moron' is the new forum buzzword because re.t.ard is an offensive (to someone) word.

Suicide ganking isn't out of control. Hi sec is fine. Boost low sec. Nerf mining. Make all carebear missions spawn 15 km from a low sec gate camp and change things so all low sec missions can only be done in a faction ship ... rinse ... repeat ... ad nauseum

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.01.19 18:06:00 - [114]
 

Insurance needs to be removed from Cocordorken.

No other change needed IMO but that change needs to take place.

It would not stop suicide ganking it wouldn't even completely remove cheap suicide ganking after all destroyers are less than a million a pop before fittings and not all that much after so even cheap targets wouldn't be completely safe.

It would however increase the logistical load on the gankers since they'd need multiple pilots in destroyers to make ganking smaller targets viable without high expense. And only the wealthy and commited with an axe to grind would waste a 50million + isk battleship to suicide a mining barge/exhumer rather than just a bored griefer with a few minutes spare time.

I don't think that suicide ganks should be made impossible or even that much more difficult. But they should be more costly. It should not be a trivial cost to sacrifice a 50 million isk battleship to pop a T1 hauler.

It's supposed to be a cold harsh universe. What is so cold and harsh about cost free griefing. Those who claim it's not cost free simply fail at ganking if you are loosing money after insurance payout you are a fail ganker under the current system.

Oh and to the person whinning about the guy dropping from +3 to heavy negative in 5 kills. Tell your buddy to not pod or live with the consequence. If he'd not podded anyone he'd still have had a positive security status after 5 ganks and still be able to happily gank his heart out with a little low sec ratting, but he decided to be a total ****er so he can have fun ratting.

Herr Wilkus
Posted - 2010.01.19 18:35:00 - [115]
 

The problem with removing insurance from suicide ganks (without removing insurance entirely) is simple.

It would result in LESS suicide ganking.

People complain about 'risk free' this and cost free that - never mind that it is CHEAP MINERALS overproduced by Miners/MRs that make this all possible.

As suicide ganking is the ONLY way to impact hi-sec resource production, EVE badly needs more of it, not less. Hell, people are self-destructing thousands of Battleships ALREADY, due to lack of demand. Reducing suicide ganking only lowers mineral demand, while increasing supply as miners/MRs produce completely without risk. This only further depresses mineral values.

Now, I might even be convinced to go along with it - however, other changes would have to be made that would simultaneously make ganking more attractive.

-Removal (or massive reduction) of sec status penalty
After all, it only affects the non-outlaw gankers anyway, and isn't the loss of a 70M BS (whose price is already massively inflated by insurance fraud currently), penalty enough?

-Concord response time increased AND making it possible to escape them sometimes.
This means, if I am risking a 70M BS in a gank attempt, I want more than 5 seconds to kill a target. Further, if getting Concorded wasn't a 100% sure thing, perhaps it would REALLY add some 'Risk' to the equation. Isn't that what we want miners? More risk for gankers?

Zoe Midoru
Selectus Pravus Lupus
Posted - 2010.01.19 19:23:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Herr Wilkus
Ah, Zill. Didn't you learn anything from the last thread? Its like you are spewing the same nonsense, though you've been refuted over and over.

Kill rights are not a joke. It means any one of your ganked targets can aggress you at anytime - for an entire month.

Finding gankers in space is quite easy with locator agents and a little patience.

'Non -10 secstat' suicide gankers are currently forced to rat to build up their sec status - which means that suicide gankers are often in space, with a PVE-setup for ratting.

Sure, if you choose to min-max a Hulk pilot, your kill rights are going to be worthless. But if you choose to waste months on stuff like Exhumers V, Refinery Efficiency V and Scrapmetal Processing, instead of learnining a few combat skills - thats your own lookout. Not CCPs. When you min-max, the 'min side' of char development hurts sometimes.

My own Hulk-alt probably mines a bit slower than some...because I spent training time learning combat skills as well. MY Hulk alt learned how to probe, fly a Vagabond, and can use T2 Projectiles.

I guarantee you that any kill rights I get would NOT be worthless.

Those last three hand tips work for ANY Hulk miner - but for some reason (hint: their lazy desire to mine AFK), they never do this. Rolling Eyes



I'm sure that all the empire miners will be overjoyed to learn that the balancing factor for you coming and suiganking them is that they can stop mining, get into a combat ship, and come try to gank you back. I'm sure they're eager to do that, being as all miners are chomping at the bit to let their inner yarrr out.

Oh, no, wait, you're saying that miners should want to come and shoot you and that if they don't want to, that's their problem. While that's not entirely indefensible, I hope that you understand in turn that carebears aren't going to find this a particularly useful perspective.

Kirsi Kirjasto
Posted - 2010.01.19 19:38:00 - [117]
 



Miners don't want waste time training combat skills to get revenge? Fair enough - but I don't want to have to shoot NPCs to keep my sec status up. Lets get rid of that mechanic too.

Ekon Bor
Amarr
Van Diemen's Demise
Merciless.
Posted - 2010.01.19 19:51:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Herr Wilkus
....On killrights:
Training combat skills is a choice. If you don't do it, your 'kill rights' will be worthless.
Thats how the game is played. If you think that spending a month training Exhumers V for an extra 3% yield is worth it - rather than learning how to fly a T1 gank cruiser, fine - but its your choice. (Though I do think 'transferable' kill rights would be an awesome improvement!)

Doesn't mean that kill rights are worthless. If they are, your skill training choices made it so.

It would be like not bothering to train up probe skills - and then *****ing about not being able to access wormholes.




Ok, so, I'm pro hulkageddon, but this idea, it's a little demented. To my mind, this is like complaining that my combat main has poor refining skills, what if I get a mineral drop?

Let's say our hypothetical ganker is a serious pirate. The marginal combat skills a primarily-mining toon is going to have, realistically aren't going to threaten him very much. PVE fit in lowsec or not, our miner friend has to get in, find him (agree, finding system is not that hard with agents) and kill him with what is still, after all, a mainly mining character, most importantly, flown by someone who mainly mines. And therefore, in all probability, knows sfa re pvp. Is that going to present a meaningful challenge to most pvp'ers? Doubt it. And even if it does, you could usually call on a mate a few systems over to grab a pvp ship and come swat this fly that's smacking himself on your pve tank. And in the unlikely event the miner wins, well, congrats, you killed a probably insured t1 b/s or b/c which is likely still worth less than the hulk, unless our ganker was ratting in a HAC or CS or something, which makes a kill even less likely.

And if our ganker is some low SP alt, well, sure you could more easily smack him, and take out his destroyer in revenge for your 200m ship, as if he'd care. Assuming you can find him of course, because odds are he's not logged on anywhere near as frequently. And as I say, if you do find him, who cares? You might get lucky and find him missioning or in a hauler, but seriously, what are the odds?

The skills required to combat a pvp toon with a reasonable probability of success are a significant investment. Your argument seems to be, I won't let you mine the way you want, but if you want to have your revenge, you need to play on my terms. You can say, well, that's the way the world is, and you may well be right. But to expect any miners to follow through on that is silly. Probability of sucess is low, if you succeed its small payoff and minor disincentive for the next suicide gank. The idea that killrights can be effective in this regard is a strawman argument.

Rez Maldor
Posted - 2010.01.19 20:12:00 - [119]
 




I'm sure that all the empire miners will be overjoyed to learn that the balancing factor for you coming and suiganking them is that they can stop mining, get into a combat ship, and come try to gank you back. I'm sure they're eager to do that, being as all miners are chomping at the bit to let their inner yarrr out.

Oh, no, wait, you're saying that miners should want to come and shoot you and that if they don't want to, that's their problem. While that's not entirely indefensible, I hope that you understand in turn that carebears aren't going to find this a particularly useful perspective.


If a miner chooses to be defenseless then that is a personal choice. I prefer to have teeth. That does not make me a ganker or a pirate. I know I am a target when I undock so I choose not to be a soft target.

Herr Wilkus
Posted - 2010.01.19 20:17:00 - [120]
 

Good post.

Like I said, my alt trained combat skills, so having kill rights is no disadvantage for me. Someone pops my 200M Hulk, damn right I'll find and kill them. But I'm not really worried about losing a Hulk - because I STAY ALIGNED while mining. I find it amazing that a 100% foolproof 'solution' to ganking is so cheap, so simple, and not based on SP....yet, nobody does it.

But back to killrights:
Sure, some of them are throwaway alts - but alts are used and abused in nearly every aspect of this game. Not much we can do about it. They are also used by miners to prespawn Concord. (of course, its meaningless with high-alpha Tempests...but if insurance is removed from suicide ganks, the Tempests go away too.)

Minor point, but you cannot call a friend to 'swat this fly'. You CAN call for RR, but its not the same thing.

And yeah, you might catch them in an insured BC or a BS....on the other hand you might catch them in a 1.0 Billion golem. T1 BS + Heavy Neuts + Injector + Buffer Tank = dead Golem. 40M SP not required. Freaking Ninja Salvagers, with their mad PVP skills, do it all the time.







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