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Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.15 21:39:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Foraven on 15/01/2010 21:46:17
Edited by: Foraven on 15/01/2010 21:44:56
Edited by: Foraven on 15/01/2010 21:39:45
Grr... I posted too soon again.

I was part of a small fleet and we were up against a fleet 2-3 times our size (Red VS Blue). No one had very big or expensive ships, but the problem was we could not find a way to engage them without being killed in seconds. Now, i'm quite new at pvp and i don't mind losing ships (got a bunch in stock), but i do want my battles to last a minute or two and be able to do some damage. Is there a way to beat larger numbers without going to much larger ships than they have?

Edit : We were fighting in high sec.


Cattegirn
Intellectual Wookies
Posted - 2010.01.15 21:48:00 - [2]
 

You can bait their faster ships away from the main body by having a body of fast ships posture as "observing" a gate. Then have your main body warp to the bait once you engage.


Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2010.01.15 22:01:00 - [3]
 

Try to outrange them and if possible also outrun them. That is the usual most efficient mechanist to avoid gettign overhelmed.

Example.. if they have 50 cruisers.. well 4 tempests with good warp poitns can wreck havoc with arties and kill tons of them with zero losses...

Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.15 22:05:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Cattegirn
You can bait their faster ships away from the main body by having a body of fast ships posture as "observing" a gate. Then have your main body warp to the bait once you engage.




Problem is, they can do it too. I noticed that we can warp to a fleetmate if they are 100 km away, so if we bait fast ships to pursue ours, odds are that we will get far enough that the main bunch of their ships can warp in.

It's sad, but i can't find any mean to offset the advantage of numbers. EVE seem to be geared toward that, everything you can do can be done better in larger numbers. Most devices require targets and only affect one ship at a time, this mean when you are outnumbered, there are lots of ships you can't hit or affect to even your odds. On other hands, they can turn you into a punching bag very easily.

Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.15 22:11:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru
Try to outrange them and if possible also outrun them. That is the usual most efficient mechanist to avoid gettign overhelmed.

Example.. if they have 50 cruisers.. well 4 tempests with good warp poitns can wreck havoc with arties and kill tons of them with zero losses...


Sure, but that require having bigger ships than they have and hoping they don't bring bigger ships once they know you have some out. Too bad there is no way to effectively snipe with frigates and destroyers, they can easily reach us and tackle before we do significant damage. Cruisers can snipe with missiles and railguns, but staying out of range is a problem if they have small tacklers with mwd.

Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2010.01.15 22:55:00 - [6]
 

One tactic I use is to sit on the opposite side of a gate from the enemy fleet.

When I see that their fleet is jumping into my system, I jump into theirs. They often leave some behind a rear guard, which are easily mopped up. The opposition fleet will then burn back to the gate and jump through as fast as they can to save their mates.

Often they do this in ones and twos so are easy meat. Or if they are well organised now is the time to leave the field of battle.

Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.15 23:08:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Banana Torres
One tactic I use is to sit on the opposite side of a gate from the enemy fleet.

When I see that their fleet is jumping into my system, I jump into theirs. They often leave some behind a rear guard, which are easily mopped up. The opposition fleet will then burn back to the gate and jump through as fast as they can to save their mates.

Often they do this in ones and twos so are easy meat. Or if they are well organised now is the time to leave the field of battle.



Good one. I guess that could have worked but coordinating that with my fleetmates would have been a bit hard. I also guess it's not a trick one can pull often...

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.01.15 23:40:00 - [8]
 

Run like a girl and type "blobs no honour" a/o "lol blobbers" in local, then if you have more friends log in ambush them with twice as many ships and when they complain about "lol blobs" in local counter that you in fact used superior tactics and it is totally different.

Mandelsan
Posted - 2010.01.16 03:35:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Foraven
Edited by: Foraven on 15/01/2010 21:46:17
Edited by: Foraven on 15/01/2010 21:44:56
Edited by: Foraven on 15/01/2010 21:39:45
Grr... I posted too soon again.

I was part of a small fleet and we were up against a fleet 2-3 times our size (Red VS Blue). No one had very big or expensive ships, but the problem was we could not find a way to engage them without being killed in seconds. Now, i'm quite new at pvp and i don't mind losing ships (got a bunch in stock), but i do want my battles to last a minute or two and be able to do some damage. Is there a way to beat larger numbers without going to much larger ships than they have?

Edit : We were fighting in high sec.




Was that the late night slug fest in Alentenea gate in Alenia? :D
I was there my friend, and it was a blood messy evening for the blues ;)

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2010.01.16 04:28:00 - [10]
 

All other things equal, numbers win. So if you want to know if 5 T1 cruisers can beat 10 T1 cruisers then no, they cannot. Unless you bring force multipliers (EWAR), better fit ships (Ie. your cruisers have T2 fits, theirs have T1), or you ship up to something bigger/badder.

Unless they are incompetent, in which case you might be able to bait them into taking gate guns or engaging at bad ranges on their longer-range ships so you can even the field quickly. It is very hard for say 5 thorax to beat 10 thorax though.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.01.16 05:07:00 - [11]
 

- Split them up (gate aggression or baiting)
- Massive use of ECM
- Use logistics, but I doubt you will do it in RvB (heard horror stories where people were actually restricted of using ECM or HACs because those are "too powerful"? wtf, is this still pvp?)

Pel Ukken
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.01.16 05:40:00 - [12]
 

ship up so you outgun them
ship down so you can selectively engage what and where you want
use logistics
use ECM
outrange them
divide and conquer
get allies

Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
Posted - 2010.01.16 07:08:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Foraven
Problem is, they can do it too.


If you're outnumbered and not interested in tactics the larger force can also use, then you're out of luck.

You could consider "force multipliers" such as ECM or logistics, but "the problem is, they can do it too."

You could try splitting them up, so that the fight begins more than 150 km. from the ships you need to warp in but less than 150 km. from the ships they want to warp in, but "the problem is they can do it too."

You could fly smaller, faster ships that get under their guns, then focus fire on their fleet one ship at a time; again, "the problem is, they can do it too."

Given that PVP in EVE is very fair, so that any skill one pilot can learn another can, too, and any ship one pilot can buy another can, too, outnumbering your enemy ain't such a bad strategy. Though come to think of it, "the problem is, they can do it too."

Platoon Sergeant
Posted - 2010.01.16 12:34:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
- Split them up (gate aggression or baiting)
- Massive use of ECM
- Use logistics, but I doubt you will do it in RvB (heard horror stories where people were actually restricted of using ECM or HACs because those are "too powerful"? wtf, is this still pvp?)

They're discouraged because RvB is about having good competitive and most importantly, fun fights. In my experience, out of 10 RvB members, 3-4 probably fly exclusively frigates because they either do not have the sp, or do not have the money to consistently fly larger.

HACs and ECM are realities of eve, but they are inappropriate for general use in RvB. RvB is not lowsec and it is not 0.0. Your opponents live 2 jumps away, and wiping out a small gang of noobs in T1 fit frigates with a Zealot can very quickly turn into camping a whole team into their station and ruining a wonderful experience for everyone else.

RvB is pvp, but it is manufactured pvp.

Kiri Serrensun
Posted - 2010.01.16 13:17:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Kiri Serrensun on 16/01/2010 13:18:15
Were the fleet actually from the opposing corp, or from a third party wardec? If the former, try talking to the opposing pilots, and try to persuade them to bring a more equal / fun force.

Yeah, blobs win. You can talk about honour and skill all day, but if the other side blobs and you don't, you're going to lose. That's why most 0.0 warfare is simply struggling to lock the primary target through the lag and getting maybe 1% damage on any given killmail.

RvB was set up to be fun, which requires some restraint, and which is why complaining about banning or discouraging unfun fighting styles is just silly. Yes, it's a bit artificial and maybe not manly enough for the average killmail addict, but if you want to just gank with overwhelming force, you're hardly short of other options.

Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.16 14:19:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Foraven on 16/01/2010 14:36:19
Originally by: Pel Ukken

ship up so you outgun them


I'm a bit reluctant to do that in most cases since the larger number of players can overwhelm a larger ship (especially if they have ewar modules and such). Also, if they see you coming they may scatter and flee or send some of their numbers to bring bigger ships. The hardest part is convincing them you are weaker than they are so they engage you (as is) when you outgun them.

Quote:

ship down so you can selectively engage what and where you want



That i could do, but i find it real difficult to devise any way to split a "blob" so a small group can chew them up. First there are the all mighty webbers and warp scrambler, negating any speed/agility advantage you may have. Once anyone catch you up, and they are far enough from the main group, others can warp in and blob you. I could warp to friendly ship 100km away in a frigate, not sure if larger ships need to be farther to do the same. Unless someone know a mean to negate scramblers effects...

Quote:

outrange them


May mean shipping up to get the extra range and damage. Also imply they have no fast ships they can use to catch you and pin you down with.

Quote:

divide and conquer


Any clever insight about that?

Quote:

get allies


Return to the main problem, having more dudes than they have to engage.

James Tritanius
Posted - 2010.01.16 16:53:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Foraven
*snip; wall of text


Okay.

No ****, Foraven. No ****. All things being equal, of course if your enemy has more people, they're going to win. 100%. No doubt about it.

I'm sure you already knew that before you posted on here. So why did you even ask the question? Just to shoot down perfectly reasonable tactics from people who actually want to help you?

Those tactics rest on different assumptions, such as, maybe your enemy isn't as smart, as organized or as skilled than you are. If you assume your enemy is on par with you on every level (i.e. all things being equal) and they still outnumber you, then, yes, go sit in a station and whine about it.

Maybe next time you can come across as less of a total ****wad.

Ralnik
Alpha Squad
Posted - 2010.01.16 17:41:00 - [18]
 

Get used to it, it's the way PVP works in EVE. 90% of the player base will no engage you unless they have a clear advantage or back up ready to jump in to save their ass.

The only thing you can really do is try to fly something that is either fast enough to keep your distance and pick them off one at a time or fly something with enough tank that will hopefully let you live long enough to kill them.

Dual rep/1600 plate Myrmidom is a awesome for dealing with multiple targets if you want to try and sit there and out tank them. The Vagabond is awesome for keeping speed and range on your targets, or you could go cheap and disposable and fly Ruptures, Vexors and so on.

Pel Ukken
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.01.16 20:59:00 - [19]
 

shipping up is the most commonly used tactic in PvP. Learn it. If you are afraid to lose your ship then you should log off.

Ship down. Get fast and agile frigates and run around in circles. Pick off the stuff that straggles or that is fast enough to catch you. If this isn't an option... you are doing it wrong.

Logi. LOGISTICS. Even t1 crusiers (exe and osprey) can be a big help.

ECM ECM ECM ECM. Another truism of PvP. Learn to Jam. And its fun too.

Outrange does not equal shipping up. Set up sniper spots off gates and stations. Fit dessies with rails/beams/arty. Blast away. Same with crusiers. Set up for range. MWD away and instapop stuff that comes at you.

Divide them into smaller groups and kill them off piecemeal. Figure this one out on your own.

Allies. Eve is full of ppl that want to shoot other ppl. Find them, ask them for help.

Finally since im assuming that this is another RvB post and you're all flying t1 frigs... get a battlecrusier and disco it. It's highsec so you'll have to be careful. And the podding thing... well... tough luck.

zombiedeadhead
Minmatar
The Tuskers
Posted - 2010.01.16 22:35:00 - [20]
 

Frigates + ECM, if you lose, you lose nothing, but you have a chance to get a Lol kill or two.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2010.01.16 23:39:00 - [21]
 

Best solution: high skill nano HACs/recons/faction cruisers/Hurricanes with snake implants. Stay at range, focus fire and kill as much as you can, and then when the incoming dps is too much, you just MWD away and warp out.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.01.17 00:57:00 - [22]
 

As others have said already, controlling range against the hostiles typically is key.

You can only warp to a fleetmate if they are more than 150km away from you, so when separating their tacklers from the main body make sure you do not go too far away.

Around the 90-100km mark tends to work well, their ECM will take a hit in efficiency due to falloff, their heavier ships will have a hard time burning out to get 150km from their tacklers, you are way out of drone control range to the main body as well as not many ships apart from sniper fits will hit at those ranges.


If you are mainly facing bigger targets with little tackle support, sniping is a good option, have a prober provide warpins to your targets for suicide tacklers (i.e. vigil for example), and take out one at a time. Proper alignment for snipers as well as cloaked scout watching the scene before you land is important so you dont get caught.

The two above methods can be combined as well.

Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.17 01:32:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Foraven on 17/01/2010 01:35:44
Originally by: Pel Ukken

Divide them into smaller groups and kill them off piecemeal. Figure this one out on your own.


No, really, this is THE answer i wish i could get because no matter how i twist it, i can't come up with a convincing way to make it happen without exploiting noobish mistakes from the opponement. In other games beating larger groups usually involve baiting them to fight in environment where the larger number advantage get nullified. As far as i know, this doesn't exist in EVE.

edit :
James Tritanius : Sure, i have no right to argue or probe for more complete/usable answers...

Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
Posted - 2010.01.17 04:21:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Foraven
No, really, this is THE answer i wish i could get because no matter how i twist it, i can't come up with a convincing way to make it happen without exploiting noobish mistakes from the opponement.


There is no one answer because there is no one scenario. Here's a typical way of doing this: You see a fleet coming into your system; one or two of your ships (fit for tackle and sniping) warp to within 80km of the jump gate and begin sniping. A smart gang will perhaps ignore you, but very often the enemy fleet will send its interceptors out to tackle your snipers. When the interceptors are in tackle range of your first wave, you warp in a second wave (fit to take out interceptors). You may have a third wave warp to the gate at a lesser range at this point to tackle the slower ships that have begun to burn much more slowly toward the fight (and away from the gate)--still within sniping range at this point, and now without their fast tacklers.

Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.17 06:07:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Ka Jolo
Originally by: Foraven
No, really, this is THE answer i wish i could get because no matter how i twist it, i can't come up with a convincing way to make it happen without exploiting noobish mistakes from the opponement.


There is no one answer because there is no one scenario. Here's a typical way of doing this: You see a fleet coming into your system; one or two of your ships (fit for tackle and sniping) warp to within 80km of the jump gate and begin sniping. A smart gang will perhaps ignore you, but very often the enemy fleet will send its interceptors out to tackle your snipers. When the interceptors are in tackle range of your first wave, you warp in a second wave (fit to take out interceptors). You may have a third wave warp to the gate at a lesser range at this point to tackle the slower ships that have begun to burn much more slowly toward the fight (and away from the gate)--still within sniping range at this point, and now without their fast tacklers.



That is an interesting tactic, one that could have worked the other day with some fleet coordination. I guess it's not the kind of manouver that new players in EVE can come up with. Now, what i need to workout is how to get such sniping range Wink.

Pel Ukken
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.01.17 07:22:00 - [26]
 

divide means you may have to split up too.

then converge on one group, kill them off, then move on.

use celestials, run around a couple systems, find some system pipes and set up an ambush.

using pounce spots above gates works too. snipe away. over all, be creative. yes use bait, bait is always win because 9 times out of 10... someone bites.

don't take me the wrong way but it seems to me that you are not fully aware of what fleets can do in PvP. maybe you should reconsider leading a gang into combat for a while and watching what more experienced players do in combat situations. that said, there is nothing wrong with asking questions.

good luck.

Foraven
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.17 07:30:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Pel Ukken
divide means you may have to split up too.

then converge on one group, kill them off, then move on.

use celestials, run around a couple systems, find some system pipes and set up an ambush.

using pounce spots above gates works too. snipe away. over all, be creative. yes use bait, bait is always win because 9 times out of 10... someone bites.

don't take me the wrong way but it seems to me that you are not fully aware of what fleets can do in PvP. maybe you should reconsider leading a gang into combat for a while and watching what more experienced players do in combat situations. that said, there is nothing wrong with asking questions.

good luck.


I'm new to pvp, and my experience in fleet is mostly with a bunch of friends doing dull missions that require little tactics to win. The other day i was the leader of the fleet because no one else wanted to do it (no Blue veterans online at the time). In an ideal situation i would have left someone else take the lead. But i was in blue to learn so i did try anyway. I joined another corp since so i'll see with them what they can teach me.

Caleb Fury
Amarr
Reloaded.
Posted - 2010.01.18 03:59:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Run like a girl and type "blobs no honour" a/o "lol blobbers" in local, then if you have more friends log in ambush them with twice as many ships and when they complain about "lol blobs" in local counter that you in fact used superior tactics and it is totally different.

LOL

Jrez
Dreddit
Posted - 2010.01.18 05:21:00 - [29]
 

There are so many cool tricks using dictors to split their fleet up between the fast align/warping ships and the soon to be dead fatties but this is empire.

Stealth bombers are also a good equalizer but one again, empire.

Empire PVP needs dictors and bombs IMO.YARRRR!!

Mike Blink
Posted - 2010.01.18 14:52:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Foraven
It's sad, but i can't find any mean to offset the advantage of numbers. EVE seem to be geared toward that, everything you can do can be done better in larger numbers. Most devices require targets and only affect one ship at a time, this mean when you are outnumbered, there are lots of ships you can't hit or affect to even your odds. On other hands, they can turn you into a punching bag very easily.


lol Troll.


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