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Mitchman
Omniscient Order
Posted - 2004.11.21 08:44:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Mitchman on 21/11/2004 14:48:22
I've tested the kill missions in Shiva fairly extensively lately, and I have some feedback:

- The Guristas kill missions are generally well balanced and offer a challenge without a high chance of being killed
- There is one mission where you are supposed to assassinate a guy (Ex-Elite agent or somesuch), and when he's dead, 20+ Mercenary ships spawn. This mission is too hard, and it's a misleading as to what the objective is. The missile spawn they send at you is not tankable in an apoc with 2 large accoms with hardeners.
- Likewise, the other mercenary missions with the battleships is also too hard (unless it was toned down the last month or so). Been a while since I tried this one, so it might have been nerfed a bit. Part of the reason these are so hard is the sheer number of ships and the crazy missile spawning they do.

Generally, I think lvl 4 missions shouldn't have more than 15 ships. Too many ships will overwhelm most players, and possibly cause panic. If you insist on keeping the the mercenary missions as they are, then remove the warp scrambling on them so it's possible to warp out and back.

All missions have been tested with an apoc with 2 large accoms repairers and 3 hardeners, 2 hardeners on the primary dmg type, 1 on the secondary.

EDIT: Current missions are made for soloing. They NPC will not go aggressive on any mates you might bring with you, so the first person to fire OR the person doing the mission will get all the heat. My comments are in light of this fact.

JP Beauregard
Gallente
Pilkington Communications
Posted - 2004.11.21 10:05:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Mitchman
If you insist on keeping the the mercenary missions as they are, then remove the warp scrambling on them so it's possible to warp out and back.


If you insist on soloing lvl 4 missions, be better prepared.

The only cocnern I have with the number of ships is the fact that they are very hard to distinguish in the tactical overview given that they all have multiple compound names and nobody will seriously want to strech the scanner window across the entire screen to see what's shooting at them.

But with the addition of new bookmarks to People & Places with every new wave, even the "hard" lvl 4 missions have become very manageable as the tedium of creating new warp-in points by yourself has been removed. They're still next to no fun nor a very economic pastime but within the logic of CCP's missions system, they fit.

Lord Anubis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.11.21 10:09:00 - [3]
 

O dear god it started already please dont cry nerf

If its to hard for you it dosnt meen its to hard for every one else.

Change your setup or tatics but dont scream nerf remember your not the best pilot out there and if you cant do it, it dosent mean no one else can

Mitchman
Omniscient Order
Posted - 2004.11.21 11:47:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Lord Anubis

Change your setup or tatics but dont scream nerf remember your not the best pilot out there and if you cant do it, it dosent mean no one else can


Well, thank you for that enlightened and constructive post and congratulations for missing the point.

</sarcasm>

Lord Anubis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.11.21 13:38:00 - [5]
 

lol what point ur saying its to hard and u want it nerfed so u can solo right or wrong lol this game dont evole round u if you cant do it others can but once level 4 missions are realsed you will see dozens of these threads poping up all crying nerf and then ccp will back down .... they all ways do then we will get agent level 3.5

Lord Anubis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.11.21 13:39:00 - [6]
 

and what good is a mission if you can always run away and then come back this takes away any risk there might be

Mitchman
Omniscient Order
Posted - 2004.11.21 14:39:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lord Anubis
lol what point ur saying its to hard and u want it nerfed so u can solo right or wrong lol this game dont evole round u if you cant do it others can but once level 4 missions are realsed you will see dozens of these threads poping up all crying nerf and then ccp will back down .... they all ways do then we will get agent level 3.5


Current missions are made for soloing. They NPC will not go aggressive on any mates you might bring with you, so the first person to fire OR the person doing the mission will get all the heat. My comments are in light of this fact.

Lord Anubis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.11.21 15:00:00 - [8]
 

agreed but at current ccp said this is made for groups perhaps they will inhance the ai to select ramdom ships in an aggressive group which will improve not only level 4 missions but the harder complixes as well

Arthur Guinness
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Posted - 2004.11.21 16:40:00 - [9]
 

Mitchman, i think you misinterpret a bug for a feature.

What you describe is bugged aggression code for npcs. And it's exploitable.
Just use a 10mn ab crow + an arma to do them.
Send the crow in, have all npc's agress on it, then bring the arma in close range to kill the spawn.

If agression is really as bugged as you say Mitchman, ccp totally ****ed up, as everyone and their dog will be exploiting that.

WhiteTiger
Posted - 2004.11.21 17:05:00 - [10]
 

You should not be able to do all the missions by just turning on a few armor hardeners and a couple armor reps on you apoc and warping and killing everything solo. I like the missions right now they don't tell you everything so you can at least have some excitement the first time you do the missions.

However, I guess they will likely be nerfed when everyone like you whines that they lose ships if they try to run them solo just like the lvl 3 missions...

Lord Anubis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.11.21 18:27:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: WhiteTiger
You should not be able to do all the missions by just turning on a few armor hardeners and a couple armor reps on you apoc and warping and killing everything solo. I like the missions right now they don't tell you everything so you can at least have some excitement the first time you do the missions.

However, I guess they will likely be nerfed when everyone like you whines that they lose ships if they try to run them solo just like the lvl 3 missions...



as i feared and already said it will get nefed as there are poeple out there who think if they cant do it no one can

Papolytic
Elevator Girls in Bondage
Posted - 2004.11.21 18:51:00 - [12]
 

I'm probably hovering somewhere around the >100 mark on lvl 4 missions over the last 3 weeks. Perhaps >200. Its difficult to tell since they all blend together and I've wasted plenty of time on POS's, complexes and doing crazy junk for the devs/bh's:

Lvl 4 missions ---

- They're no more difficult than lvl 3 missions. You have to be setup to do them, period.

- Out of all those lvl 4 kill missions, I've gotten 1 nice drop, and the rest usually requires getting your indy and requires your picking up about 2000m3 of crap. (literally)

- I've done them in 0.0 and in .8 (I think .8 but its >.7 and in empire). There's little difference.

- Since 2 patches back, with the introduction of the 'deadspace/complex' missions, a new set of problems has arisen. Every deadspace mission fails with a 'computer crashed' error. This means that you accept it, the agent says "My system crashed" and you get the next mission, which often is cycling back to some mission you just had before. This makes it at least, appear that the mission have been severely nerfed if the mission you're stuck on is an easy one.

- Yes, there's *easy* lvl 4 missions, and a lot of them. At first, before deadspace ones, I'd only gotten harder missions that were fun for 2 or 3 times, but were boring after that.

From my standpoint, there's just certainly nothing to gripe about, whether you're a 0.0 inhabitant, or in empire. If you think a mission is too tough, then reject the damn thing (-> original poster guy). If you think empire players are getting too much for too little risk, you're wrong. Empire people aren't getting very much for the privilige of being bored by easy missions that sometimes have BS's. If you're an ammo user and can manage to pay for ammo on a lvl 4 mission, you're doing great.

The deciding factor on how these l4 kills play out has nothing to do with what you're seeing. I've filed over 50 bug reports, nearly all about very fundamental problems that would drive you all nuts, like not being able to divide/stack elements in cargo etc. Its difficult to worry about balance which can be tweaked at the drop of a TomB or PSmurf at any time *after* release.

When Complexes - in - missions are actually working and not giving the agents panic attacks, then it may become more interesting, so if 50% of your missions are no-go's, who the hell knows what they might have been? (ok, for those who can't figure that out, no one knows).

I'm still logging on to change skills once in a while and will happily observe the "I lost my ship. I demand to talk to a GM!!!!" comments in help-chat on release day, but making assumptions about the current 'state-of-nerf' is about as accurate as TV weather forcasts.

Papol

But my real gripe is that our most current patched Shiva is probably a 'release candidate' and basic hangar item movement doesn't work. I reported it as my first bug ~1 month ago, and have reported it again after each patch. I won't go into the other uncountable basic bugs.

Silex D'Arden
Elapsed Masquerade
Posted - 2004.11.21 18:55:00 - [13]
 

I did a lvl 3 mission in my moa on shiva and got my ass handed to me not once, twice, but 3 times......blackbirds warping in and frigates everywhere.....finally a good challenge...thank you CCP!!!!

Calculon
Gallente
Darkstorm Command
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2004.11.21 20:03:00 - [14]
 

Are you talking about Silence the Informant mission? That mission was easy. they couldn't take down half of my raven shield. you probably have tracking problems with your apoc setup

Mitchman
Omniscient Order
Posted - 2004.11.22 04:29:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Arthur Guinness

What you describe is bugged aggression code for npcs. And it's exploitable.
Just use a 10mn ab crow + an arma to do them.
Send the crow in, have all npc's agress on it, then bring the arma in close range to kill the spawn.


It's not a bug. It was designed that way so the blockade mission npc wouldn't shoot at random people at the gates. Imagine lvl 4 BS npc going agressive against everybody close to a gate? Ouch.


Arthur Guinness
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Posted - 2004.11.22 07:23:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mitchman
Originally by: Arthur Guinness

What you describe is bugged aggression code for npcs. And it's exploitable.
Just use a 10mn ab crow + an arma to do them.
Send the crow in, have all npc's agress on it, then bring the arma in close range to kill the spawn.


It's not a bug. It was designed that way so the blockade mission npc wouldn't shoot at random people at the gates. Imagine lvl 4 BS npc going agressive against everybody close to a gate? Ouch.




well what can i say ccp ****ed up then.
missions like these are pointless, you can use intie + gankageddon todo the mission riskfree and actually in bonus time :/

ccp change that agression algorithm :(

Qutsemnie
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.11.22 09:05:00 - [17]
 

LOL I dont believe it.

Thats going to result in a wtfpwned inty far to often on these level 4 missions.

Inty pilots will tell you they can take out a BS solo what they CANT do is easily deal with the frigate guards.

Ever seen what happens to a solo inty after its webbed and being shot at by a bunch of frigate guns? Its quick trip to pod-freedom usually before the inty pilot can figure out he has been had. An inty doesnt last much longer then a newbie ship once it starts getting hit.

Anyway this guys plan is to send an inty into a bunch of frigates with webbers and call it "Risk free". I wouldnt bother with the crys for nerf until you see multiple people telling you they can do level 4 agent missions like that. Until then all i expect to read is how your inty got wtfpwned.


MrRookie
M. Corp
M. PIRE
Posted - 2004.11.22 09:58:00 - [18]
 

I just dont understand what lvl 5 agents are for if lvl 4 missions is this hard. Its gonna be 10 BS 50 cruisers and 100 frigs? Rolling Eyes

Now its like this:
lvl 1: a couple of wimpy frigs
lvl 2: a couple of wimpy frigs + 1 extra
lvl 3: a cruiser and some frigs
lvl 4: hordes of BSs hordes cruisers millions of frigs :p
lvl 5: say no more. Need an alliance to do the mission
Where is the challenge between?
I think current lvl agents should be lvl 5 and lvl 4 should be more like solo hunting in 0.0

Sternburg Export
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.11.22 10:04:00 - [19]
 

think about this:

going in with a crow... Orbiting the whole spawn at 60km and the geddon kills them all.
AFAIK a crow is twice as fast as a NPC ceptor so it doesnīt get webbed.


My other thouhgts about level 4 Killmissions:

I see dead BS. Many dead BS.

Cause itīs simply impossible to tank the BS Spawns alone.
/me thinks on the Level 4 Merc Assasination (important)
3 merc BS, 5 or 6 Cruisers and 5 Ceptors if i remember right.
Only god knows how i was able to warp out again.
They outdamaged me totally. My shields were gone instantly, and my armor went down very fast.

If the Agression system wonīt get nerfed, many ships will go down.
It doesnīt matter how many ppl are with u. If all shoot on u, u r mostly lost. Rolling Eyes

Mitchman
Omniscient Order
Posted - 2004.11.22 10:37:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Mitchman on 22/11/2004 11:47:52
Well, since the aggression system is as it is, the only really group effort you can do with these is to have one ship remote armor repair the agent runner's ship.


MrRookie
M. Corp
M. PIRE
Posted - 2004.11.22 10:42:00 - [21]
 

tbh I dont htink its bad is 1 orbit in a ceptor and the another guy kill the npc. They are 2 and have to share the proffit. Ofc they should be able to gank the npcs easily

throbbinnoggin
Gallente
Eminent Domain
Posted - 2004.11.22 13:50:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: throbbinnoggin on 22/11/2004 13:57:20
Originally by: MrRookie
I just dont understand what lvl 5 agents are for if lvl 4 missions is this hard. Its gonna be 10 BS 50 cruisers and 100 frigs? Rolling Eyes

Now its like this:
lvl 1: a couple of wimpy frigs
lvl 2: a couple of wimpy frigs + 1 extra
lvl 3: a cruiser and some frigs
lvl 4: hordes of BSs hordes cruisers millions of frigs :p
lvl 5: say no more. Need an alliance to do the mission
Where is the challenge between?
I think current lvl agents should be lvl 5 and lvl 4 should be more like solo hunting in 0.0


Agreed...please note that it is not a nerf I am after. What I would like to see is the introduction of lvl 5 agents whose sole purpose and difficulty is for "groups" only. What I would like to see is lvl4 missions designed around a solo BS parameter while relegating lvl5 agents to be only possible or at least reasonable if done in groups. What I would like to see in lvl4 is a spawn whose "difficulty" isn't totally number related. Rather smaller number of higher bounty ships to the tune of 0.0 belts. Challenge wise I wouldn't mind seeing npc AI tweaked a little either w/ a corresponding rise in bounty relating to higher intelligence.

At the moment it isn't that lvl4 missions aren't doable solo; they are just a pain and a time sink to do so. I haven't spent alot of time on the shiva server doing missions but I figure I've done at least 20 lvl4 in my Apoc solo; most of which at close range tanked. I also used a long range sniper setup just to see the mechanics involved at playing the long range game.

The only 2 missions I had that were difficult to tank up close were a Khanid multi wave in which the 3rd and last consisted of 4 Khanid High Commanders and an assortment of cruiser/frigs (elites?) and an Angel mission consisting of a 500k bs and 11 100/110k cruiser plus 2 frigs (elites?). Both of those I had to warp out and repair cause my tank couldn't keep up until i knocked off more of the spawn. The few I did with a sniper setup, I never was hit. It was just a matter of setting up a second bm so I could warp in at 120k (60k from the 1st), target and kill. If the group aggro'd on me I just kept myself oriented to a warpable object in the opposite direction, starting moving towards it, made another bm and warped out when they got too close...warp back in at new bm, target, kill ad nauseum.

I don't want to see a nerf because I can't manage these missions. As stated above, I can. As a matter of fact I'm not asking for a nerf at all. Just an adjustment of parameters and the introduction/enabling of lvl5 agents to give group missions. In fact make the lvl5 group missions tougher than lvl4's are now so you really have to get a good group going. It's just that I have never heard a statement given in regards to the intended difficulty of lvl5. Also currently we're dealing with more of a time sink than difficulty in relation to spawn size. A shed load of npc inty/frig/cruiser spawn doesn't represent a challenge. Just a royal pain. Especially when dealing with multi wave missions where the bonus time limit is 45 minutes?

So CCP please consider the following parameters when designing missions:

Lvl1 = tier 2 frig
Lvl2 = tier 3 frig
Lvl3 = cruiser
Lvl4 = bs
Lvl5 = group only (if you want to survive)

Arthur Guinness
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Posted - 2004.11.22 14:05:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: throbbinnoggin

Agreed...please note that it is not a nerf I am after. What I would like to see is the introduction of lvl 5 agents whose sole purpose and difficulty is for "groups" only. What I would like to see is lvl4 missions designed around a solo BS parameter while relegating lvl5 agents to be only possible or at least reasonable if done in groups. What I would like to see in lvl4 is a spawn whose "difficulty" isn't totally number related. Rather smaller number of higher bounty ships to the tune of 0.0 belts. Challenge wise I wouldn't mind seeing npc AI tweaked a little either w/ a corresponding rise in bounty relating to higher intelligence.



I see where you're comming from, but i do believe there are many lower bounty ships in those mission exactly to make them a time sink.

I mean if it was just for my isk gain, i'd want all 0.0 spawns to be BS only spawns, with upto 4 bs.... but you know i am not getting that, because the isk/time would be insane.

Just like lvl4 missions with only 3x bs + 4x cruiser would be an insane isk/time thing.

So to the point lvl4 mission might be designed to be doable inside bonus time as group. The extra ships are there to let you waste time. Basically you'll have to work around the low bounty npc's to get to the high bounty npcs.
And bounty income as it is, is high enough atm.

Barth3zzzNL
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Posted - 2004.11.23 08:51:00 - [24]
 

They added Kill Concord missions for Pirate Agents Sad

You lose a lot of sec status killing those Crying or Very sad

Clericuzio
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2004.11.26 15:54:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Barth3zzzNL
They added Kill Concord missions for Pirate Agents Sad

You lose a lot of sec status killing those Crying or Very sad


Seriously? how tough are they? what types of concord ship do you come across?

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2004.11.26 17:54:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Clericuzio
Originally by: Barth3zzzNL
They added Kill Concord missions for Pirate Agents Sad

You lose a lot of sec status killing those Crying or Very sad


Seriously? how tough are they? what types of concord ship do you come across?

IVe only seen Frigs and Cruisers so far, they spawn with 4 cruisers and 5 Frigates i believe.
I managed to pop the Frigates in a Caracal at long range but the Cruisers where wtfpwning me quite a bit. I had to get a Dominix and Tank em while my drones killed them.

I hope i never get this mission again though, you lose to much sec status killing them.

Petr Sorokin
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.11.27 00:12:00 - [27]
 

The deadspace missions are the ones that will cause problems because of the way you warp into them. Since you can't make a BM to warp in further away that works you always get dropped right into the enemy if you have to warp out.

Did the Deadspace Kidnapped Daughter mission yesterday , when you warp in the first time there are what looks to be 3 or 4 groups of enemies at 80-120km away. You can move forward a bit and start engaging the first group who now rush at you (with their working MWDs.. damm npc cheaters ). So far so good and if you can kill that first wave without having to warp out then you can repeat. If however you warp out and come back, when you return you are 15km from then entire spawn of 30+ ships including frigs with scramblers and webbers and you are pretty much done for.

Similarly did a L4 blockade mission and the first wave was 6x100k cruisers so np for a BS but when you kill those I had 3x500k BS and 3x100k cruisers spawn 4km from me. Just dropping huge spawns instantly onto a single ship at basically zero range doesn't really give you many options. The 3rd wave had 750k ravens spawning on top of me also.

Now I haven't lost a ship yet so they are doable, but the combo of no MWD, no ability to BM to arrive at a good range for your setup, the NPCs using MWDs and of course being hugely outnumbered all serve to make these tricky. ;)

Why do the new waves have to spawn RIGHT on top of you ? Couldn't they just as easily arrive at a random distance away ?

Is it really nessescary to let NPCs use MWDs while players can't ? That just guarantees that you have no option but to conceed that you are going to get swarmed at close range ?

Have to fix the warp into deadspace issue, doesn't really matter what your setup is if the warp in BM drops you 15km from 30-50 ships then you are going to die.

Petr Sorokin
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.11.27 01:29:00 - [28]
 

So not much later, I did lose first BS to a L4 mission.

Warped in to mission BM, was within 9k of the enemy who both scrambled and webbed me. BS down in under 30 seconds, hell it takes 11 seconds to even lock a frigate and to start deploying drones.

There is hard, and then there is silly.

You have to be able to arrive further from the spawn than 9k. Or spread the enemy out more. Buy you can't just have them all on top of the warp in spot.


Hematic
Caldari
R.O.T.
Posted - 2004.11.27 02:12:00 - [29]
 

That's the whole thing. It's the bugs not the features that are problem.

We tried this mission today and lost. The first guys warped in at 60k and he was good 80k from the nearest NPC perfect. So he says warp in. The second Apoc warps in and shoots 60k in front of the first guy, putting him only 24k from the nearest NPC.

The NPCs all came to life and had the apoc warped and webbed in the blink of an eye. 88 seconds later the apoc was dead. The main reason is because the scourge missles were doing base 750 damage and they're coming fast.

Anyway, I'm hoping that that damage is a bug and the warp in problem is a bug so that our apoc pilot might get his ship back.


 

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