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blankseplocked Spec for a flatscreen TV to use for EvE?
 
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Elena Laskova
Posted - 2010.01.08 09:27:00 - [1]
 

I need a larger screen for my PC, and have been looking at flatscreen TVs. All seem able to act as a PC monitor, and they have ok resolution (1920 x 1080?).

There are a couple of "magic numbers" I can't interpret:

Refresh rate - 50 Hz or 100 Hz (I'm in Europe - I was told it would be 60/120 in the US)

Response time - usually reported in single-digit milliseconds. 100 Hz TVs have lower response times

I play on a laptop, which means the CPU is ok but the graphics card is not so good. It has a 1920x 1200 LCD screen refreshing at 60 Hz. On this machine, I consider 20 frames per second blazingly fast for an MMO.

100 Hz TVs cost up to twice as much as 50 Hz, which makes them uncomfortably expensive.

Can anyone explain the relevance of refresh rate (and response time) to online games, and whether I actually need a 100 Hz screen?

I'm also unsure about the differences between LCD, plasma, and LED screen technology. The LEDs are too expensive right now, even if they are a lot better I can't afford one :s

Masaki Kotozuya
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.01.08 09:51:00 - [2]
 

LCD and LED technology are perhaps a little bit more expensive, but it's the most trusted technology that gives you amazing quality and endurance!
Plasma screens are definetly a very bad idea. After a year or two you will realise your screen quality is falling down every day and in 2 years your screen will die.

Natasja Podinski
Posted - 2010.01.08 09:53:00 - [3]
 

ting is!! if you sit in the couch you cannot see something!! :)

local chat is microskop

Frecator Dementa
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.01.08 09:53:00 - [4]
 

Also, refresh rate is more or less irrelevant for LCD screens.
It only matters for CRT screens where a 50Hz rate will get you foaming-at-the-mouth seizures if you stare at them for long enough.

Zytrel
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
Posted - 2010.01.08 10:02:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Zytrel on 08/01/2010 10:14:57
One issue you might want to look into is input lag.
It's already noticeable on some LCD Monitors, but for TVs the lag is usually considerably worse.

I wouldn't be able to use my LCD TV for simple desktop applications without getting dizzy from the "wobbly" cursor behavior.

EDIT: Just before someone tries to be smart: Response Time != Input Lag

Dowcipnis
Posted - 2010.01.08 10:03:00 - [6]
 

My missus got me a 32" LG LCD TV for Xmas Very Happy, runs at 1920 x 1080 at 100Hz. Its great, works fine Laughing and well worth the money compared to buying a large PC monitor.

Dow

Magnus Nordir
Caldari
Nordir Industries
Posted - 2010.01.08 10:06:00 - [7]
 

If you're putting it on your table, just get a regular 24-28 inch LCD. 2560*1600 beats widescreen "full HD" (1920*1080) any day. It's ridiculous, just like 1050*1680, reducing the vertical resolution so it counts as widescreen. Laughing

Cuchulain Spartan
Posted - 2010.01.08 13:58:00 - [8]
 

I had my PC hooked up to my 42" lcd tv for about a week, sat in my recliner with my wireless keyboard/mouse. It just didnt work out, the screen was just to intensive for your eyes, I cant really explain it but it just didnt work. I woke up ever day with a headache, sore eyes etc. Also, everything is too small so you strain to see it, try reading your overview from 8-10 feet away etc.

Get a 22" at your desk, its plenty. 42" or up just doesnt suit Eve.

Magnus Nordir
Caldari
Nordir Industries
Posted - 2010.01.08 14:02:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Cuchulain Spartan
I had my PC hooked up to my 42" lcd tv for about a week, sat in my recliner with my wireless keyboard/mouse. It just didnt work out, the screen was just to intensive for your eyes, I cant really explain it but it just didnt work. I woke up ever day with a headache, sore eyes etc. Also, everything is too small so you strain to see it, try reading your overview from 8-10 feet away etc.

Get a 22" at your desk, its plenty. 42" or up just doesnt suit Eve.


This. 28"-32" is just about the limit of what you can comfortably look at from two feet away at native resolution.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.01.08 14:16:00 - [10]
 

I've played on my Sony 40" (100Hz) and it works quite nicely, but I'm probably more like 5+ feet away than 2.

Tallaran Kouros
Cryptonym Sleepers
Posted - 2010.01.08 14:20:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Masaki Kotozuya

Plasma screens are definetly a very bad idea. After a year or two you will realise your screen quality is falling down every day and in 2 years your screen will die.


Having worked for a major electronics manufacturer that I won't name, I call bull**** on this.

Do you have a citation?

Chalrayne Illyndar
Posted - 2010.01.08 14:21:00 - [12]
 

Another thing with plasma, you have to deal with burn in/image retention. May be a little annoying to go try and watch a football match and have the better part of the interface left behind for a while.

Testy Kills
Posted - 2010.01.08 15:45:00 - [13]
 

I just recently began playing this game on our 52" LG LCD. It was something I'd wanted to try for sometime. I have to admit after all the anticipation I'd had for being able to do that, I found the experience somewhat lacking.

Some of the problems I'm having are the same as some have already mentioned.
  • The chat window text.
The text is very, very small. This prompted me to have to re-arrange some furniture a bit and put my seat a bit closer to the TV to compensate.
  • The game screen resolution
No matter what setting I've tried on my Nvidia GPU, the game does not fully fit into the screen and I lose a bit off of all four edges. Now I have been able to play the game still, but it is noticeable that something is missing. The only option I have is to completely change the resolution in the Esc menu. There are only 3 choices; 1600x900 (my desk top native rez), 1152x864, and 1024x768. Of those 3 choices 1024x768 is the only one that brings all four edges of the screen far enough but then I have to reconfigure my whole GUI layout!
  • Input lag/latency
As yet I've found no solution for it. It either gets worse the longer I play or my tolerance for it lessens the longer I play.

Any way I'm not telling you this to try to change your mind, just wanted to give you an FYI of somethings you may encounter. I'll still play on my big screen and I'm still searching for a solution to some of my problems.

MaxxOmega
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
Posted - 2010.01.08 16:00:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Masaki Kotozuya
LCD and LED technology are perhaps a little bit more expensive, but it's the most trusted technology that gives you amazing quality and endurance!
Plasma screens are definetly a very bad idea. After a year or two you will realise your screen quality is falling down every day and in 2 years your screen will die.

Whoa man are you living in the past. Those problems with early Plasma sets were fixed years ago. Those were First Gen Plasma we are now up to 5th or 6th Gen. And there is NO more "Burn In' of images anymore either as some still believe...

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.01.08 16:28:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Chalrayne Illyndar
Another thing with plasma, you have to deal with burn in/image retention. May be a little annoying to go try and watch a football match and have the better part of the interface left behind for a while.


Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
Originally by: Masaki Kotozuya

Plasma screens are definetly a very bad idea. After a year or two you will realise your screen quality is falling down every day and in 2 years your screen will die.


Having worked for a major electronics manufacturer that I won't name, I call bull**** on this.

Do you have a citation?


As an electronic Engineer, I'm going to agree with you here and call complete bull**** on all the stupid rumors about plasma TVs. 99.9% of it is complete horse ****, made up by people who have no clue what the hell they're talking about.

Initially when they were released, a bad batch of cells with faulty controllers were put out by one of the major plasma cell manufacturers (I can't remember who it was exactly, but Panasonic springs to mind for some reason.)

These made it into TVs of various brands as many manufacturers use common rail parts, and from there a number of the controllers failed during the first couple of years of operation causing a lot of RMA warranty claims.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with plasma TVs, in fact in a lot of instances with the right setup and ambient light, and a good quality TV they give a more defined and sharper picture than an LCD screen.

The only difference in terms of picture quality is that LCD TVs tend to have more crisp jet black tones than plasma cells can produce due to the way the image is displayed and the backlight helping the viewer's eyes pick out the edges of darker hues. Reproduction of every other colour is comparable if not better than an LCD TV.

As for image burn in, the only way you have to worry about that is if you leave the TV running 24/7 with the same image displayed in one more more areas of the screen without giving the cell a chance to cool off now and again.

If you find your screen is prone to image retention (which most plasma cells aren't now anyway) it vanishes after 30 seconds or so if you've had the same image on the screen for +10 hours or so.



Genya Arikaido
Posted - 2010.01.08 16:55:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Genya Arikaido on 08/01/2010 17:00:45
First, I'm going to call marketing shenanigans on the TV and monitor industry by not telling you that the vast majority of "monitors" are virtually the same quality as the TVs you can buy in Walmart.

Second, I'm going to tell you to pay attention you're serious about good quality display, because I'm going to point out how to spot the differences between ****ty TN panels and the superior S-IPS panels. TN panels are easily 10 years old LCD technology, hence their low cost.

What you need to look for are Super-IPS or S-IPS based panels. The most common manufacturers are LG Phillips and Viewsonic. If the panel has a response time of 1ms or higher..or has a response time at all, that's the telltale mark of a TN panel.

Supporting information:
Types of Active Matrix Displays
Technical details on the comparison of LCD panel types.

Here you can see a list of IPS based LCD panels and the general prices. Enjoy!

NOTE: You'll probably wonder why bother pay such a higher price for these monitors. Go to an Apple store and look at the Apple brand panels in there. They are all S-IPS and H-IPS. One look, and you'll never settle for TN **** again.

FT Cold
Mission Runner Exclusive
Posted - 2010.01.08 17:35:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: FT Cold on 08/01/2010 17:36:25
Originally by: MaxxOmega
Originally by: Masaki Kotozuya
LCD and LED technology are perhaps a little bit more expensive, but it's the most trusted technology that gives you amazing quality and endurance!
Plasma screens are definetly a very bad idea. After a year or two you will realise your screen quality is falling down every day and in 2 years your screen will die.

Whoa man are you living in the past. Those problems with early Plasma sets were fixed years ago. Those were First Gen Plasma we are now up to 5th or 6th Gen. And there is NO more "Burn In' of images anymore either as some still believe...


Really, no more burn in... you should probably tell that to the Gen 5 we have in our conference room that's less than 6 months old with tons of burn in...

Edit: We're going to replace it along with buying a 2nd in the other tele-conference room but this time it won't be a plasma - LED TV FTW.

Lyvanna Kitaen
Minmatar
Noonday Sun Corp
Posted - 2010.01.08 18:05:00 - [18]
 

I dual screen with a 47" HDTV as my main screen and a widescreen 24" LCD as secondary. The HDTV is 1080p 60Hz and works really nicely for everything I throw at it. The computer drives it via DVI. I get much better results using a digital input (DVI or HDMI) rather and RGB analog. If your LCD doesn't have a direct DVI input connector (most don't anymore) you can get a plug that converts it very cheaply since the signals on the wires are the same only the connector is different.

Councillor Artwhiler
Posted - 2010.01.08 19:20:00 - [19]
 

I play occasionally using my laptop on my main TV, a 46-inch Sony XBR4 LCD via HDMI. The laptop is running an Nvidia 260m GPU and it works fine. The TV can be manually changed to 120hz however usually I leave it in " normal " mode ,or 60hz mode. My only issue, like a few other reported, was that at 1920 by 1080 I could barely read the text even when set to largest font. I ended up getting a patio zero-gravity recliner that I can place in front of the TV and be close enough. I recycled a thick plastic cutting board for a keyboard/mouse surface too. I don't notice any issues with refresh rate or "ghosting" images while playing either. I like the fact that I can recline too. The chair set me back less than $50US and folds up for easy storage in the closet.

It may not be for everybody but I say it's definitely worth trying once.

Bodrul
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.01.08 19:32:00 - [20]
 

i use this a Samsung LE40R88BD (im UK)
40 inch

quite good for eve online :)







Ortho Loess
Volition Cult
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.01.08 19:35:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Testy Kills
  • The game screen resolution
No matter what setting I've tried on my Nvidia GPU, the game does not fully fit into the screen and I lose a bit off of all four edges. Now I have been able to play the game still, but it is noticeable that something is missing. The only option I have is to completely change the resolution in the Esc menu. There are only 3 choices; 1600x900 (my desk top native rez), 1152x864, and 1024x768. Of those 3 choices 1024x768 is the only one that brings all four edges of the screen far enough but then I have to reconfigure my whole GUI layout!


This is called overscan, old TVs (CRT - black and white etc.) couldn't display the edges of the picture properly, so were designed to only show the middle, cutting off a bit from each side. Therefore the TV signal was designed with this in mind, the edges of the broadcast stream weren't shown by TVs, so there may not be any useful picture there. Along come flat screens in their various forms, perfectly capable of displaying the whole picture, they need to coexist with CRTs so cut off the edges of the picture in software before displaying it. This is why you don't see the edges of your picture.

Fear not! (hopefully) Somewhere in the TV menus should be an option to turn off overscan for at least the PC input, otherwise if it has a VGA input and you aren't using it, try using that.

Daelorn
Posted - 2010.01.08 19:35:00 - [22]
 


AlleyKat
Gallente
The Unwanted.
Posted - 2010.01.08 19:46:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Elena Laskova
I'm also unsure about the differences between LCD, plasma, and LED screen technology. The LEDs are too expensive right now, even if they are a lot better I can't afford one :s


There is one more type of technology demanding your attention - and it beats everything else

AK

MrGarak
Caldari
Zar'rocc
Posted - 2010.01.08 20:28:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: MrGarak on 08/01/2010 20:38:12
Edited by: MrGarak on 08/01/2010 20:31:39
Here's what I play on:

Samsung HDTV

Love it, would definitely recommend one !

Lythandra Gloomwing
Posted - 2010.01.08 20:59:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Lythandra Gloomwing on 08/01/2010 21:19:46
Originally by: Ortho Loess

This is called overscan, old TVs (CRT - black and white etc.) couldn't display the edges of the picture properly, so were designed to only show the middle, cutting off a bit from each side. Therefore the TV signal was designed with this in mind, the edges of the broadcast stream weren't shown by TVs, so there may not be any useful picture there. Along come flat screens in their various forms, perfectly capable of displaying the whole picture, they need to coexist with CRTs so cut off the edges of the picture in software before displaying it. This is why you don't see the edges of your picture.

Fear not! (hopefully) Somewhere in the TV menus should be an option to turn off overscan for at least the PC input, otherwise if it has a VGA input and you aren't using it, try using that.



Hot diggety so that's why my plasma doesn't show a proper 1080p when I connect it to the computer hopefully I can find that setting somewhere in my set up.

As to the OP I use a 28" I-Inc LCD as my primary PC display it's budget version of the HannsG 28" it's VIS is actually 27.5' but who's quibbling. It's a 1920X1200 set so it's a bit more than full HD and looks very nice I know a lot of peoople like a higher res on a set that size but with my older lazier eyes and the tiny fonts in this game it works really well.

linky

The thing is F-ing big and I love it image quality is pretty good and I think sitting on my desk at 3' it's actually a bigger relative display than my 50" plasma at 13'
Oh on the technology question.

Plasma's are generally inferior as dedicated gaming platforms since they are more prone to Image retention than LCD's this is do to how the phosphors age so if a particular phosphor is lit up for an extended period of time it will age more than those adjacent to it and cause the IR. as noted they are much better nowadays and have some technology that helps to prevent it from being too much of a problem by moving pixels around slightly to lesson the effects. That said spending a lot of time with a particular static immage can cause problems as such they aren't really good for games where any sort of HUD is up constantly.
Also since they have glass screens they are more susceptable to glare and tend to not be as bright as LCD's and as such are generally less desirable in brighter veiwing area's particularly with a lot of direct light.

Plasma do however tend to have better image quality their blacks are blacker their images more realistic and life like. They don't experience the image tearing that LCDs do with really fast motion video and generally behave more like a CRT.

LCDs as mentioned tend to be brighter but the blacks often look washed out and more gray since the blacklight is always on and will tend to bleed through.

They are however more resistent to image retention (they can have problems with it but it's far less rapid or common) making them generally preferable as Computer displays.

LEDs well I'm going to wait for the pricing to come down to a more realistic level before worrying about them. ;)

Personally I have a 50" Panny Plasma for watching TV/Movies (do have a HTPC hooked up to it for Netflix/light surfing) and a 23" and the earlier mentioned 28" LCD for computer monitors.(though I do confess to loading EVE up ont he plasma once just to see what it looked like at 50")

Thuul'Khalat
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.01.08 21:00:00 - [26]
 

I have tried playing a few times on my Samsung 46" LED-TV, and it's pretty nice tbh

Testy Kills
Posted - 2010.01.09 04:40:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Ortho Loess

Fear not! (hopefully) Somewhere in the TV menus should be an option to turn off overscan for at least the PC input, otherwise if it has a VGA input and you aren't using it, try using that.



I'm connected through my HDMI cable and if I reading you correctly this is not the same as connecting through the VGA cable? There is a 'PC' input I can switch to but I guess I don't really know if there would be any signal if I'm connected via HDMI, my guess is no. Otherwise there is no other setting I can fiddle with, believe I have tried. But thanks for the info.

Elena Laskova
Posted - 2010.01.09 14:24:00 - [28]
 

Thanks for the responses so far. I have to admit I'm still confused, but at a much higher level now :)

A little more information:

I don't think I'll get problems with tiny fonts Actually this whole exercise is to fix that particular issue. I was planning to put the big screen on the desk my PC sits on, about 1 meter from my eyes. I figured a screen between 34 and 40 inches would be ok. Any smaller and I might be better off with a large PC screen 35cm away.

I'm still not sure if the refresh rate (50 Hz or 100 Hz) really matters. FWIW I use my PC for work (mostly text-based), MMOs (currently EvE), showing movies, and strategy games. No need for me to pay extra for RTS framerates :)

I can buy a 100 Hz TV for about USD 1000, and 50 Hz for about USD 550, and a large PC screen for about USD 300. Originally I was thinking 500-600, so stepping up to 1000 is a lot. I'm startng to wonder if the best move isn't to go with a good PC screen, and wait till I can afford a really big LED TV :s

Toonces Otama
Posted - 2010.01.09 15:26:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Elena Laskova
Response time - usually reported in single-digit milliseconds


In my opinion, this is the single most important value when it comes to buying a gaming TV/Monitor. This is basically it is the measured amount of time that a pixel and go from black, to white, and back again, and is most noticible with moving objects on the screen (which games tend to have an abundance of). Get one with as low a number of milliseconds as you can find/afford, as it will greatly enhance your experence. Too high a rate, and you'll experence image ghosting, which while may be acceptable, and less noticible on Television, is extremely distraction IMO when gaming.


 

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