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Sator deHarak
Caldari
Templars of Space
Posted - 2010.01.05 08:21:00 - [31]
 

I guess PL is going back to sniping. Cool

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.06 02:24:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: IRISH JESUS
Edited by: IRISH JESUS on 04/01/2010 06:17:49
I am not a supporter of Either side in the Fountain War. But I have a question for Zenith Affinity, Pandemic Legion, and pets. Why stay and continue to fight? You know you have already lost. Everyday IT takes more control over the region. This is affecting your alliances in the long term. For example Zenith Affinity is losing corps. Why not move somewhere else like Querious and gather your strength for a later invasion?

The fotm ***s leave, leaving behind those that joined because they want to be in whatever PL corp they're in.

Besides, a war is never over until it's over. Many on both sides play alot less/not at all anymore, but if the remaining group in PL+allies keep playing while IT keep loosing members, we will win in the end, while if the opposite happens, IT will win.

Captain Irregardless
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.06 02:48:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Betty Boom
First goal is breaking the morale of your enemy.


HoN broke our moral

Le Skunk
Gallente
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2010.01.06 02:57:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: steave435
but if the remaining group in PL+allies keep playing while IT keep loosing members, we will win in the end, while if the opposite happens, IT will win.


Meanwhile that CCP dude buys more fast cars and shells out for vanity project rap videos.

SKUNK

Avernus
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.01.06 03:21:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: steave435

The fotm ***s leave, leaving behind those that joined because they want to be in whatever PL corp they're in.

Besides, a war is never over until it's over. Many on both sides play alot less/not at all anymore, but if the remaining group in PL+allies keep playing while IT keep loosing members, we will win in the end, while if the opposite happens, IT will win.


I do agree with you that it is of definate benefit to trim the fat during wars, losing the fotm members. However, coming from a past alliance that trimmed its membership 400% during its four year run in Eve, the type of trimming that PL is undergoing is not going to win you this war. Yes, you will have an extremely hard core of members at the end of it, a group that would bring pride to any within it, but you need more than a strong core to win this war, you also need numbers.

If you can't pull together the numbers yourselves, then those numbers have to come from allies. SoT isn't PL's younger brother, they are rupturing members as their claimed space recedes, and when their last outposts fall, you'll see it split. Of those remaining when the time comes, half will leave SoT altogether, the other half will be basing from PL outposts (if you allow them to remain, I'm guessing you will). SoT morale will be as low as it can get at that point, whoever remains, will be there for the long haul, but the individual corporations and pilots will be hurting for isk, and what they bring to fights will definately be showing. Their performance and numbers will depend primarily on how PL treat them.

I don't doubt that PL will avoid completely splintering under pressure, but they are going to lose Fountain. How long that will take depends on their morale. I'm willing to bet they can at least lose half their stations without splintering. At that stage it goes one of two ways. The last of the *****ing fotms will flee, PL numbers will expectantly plummet. That strong bitter (bitter is good) remaining core of members will either fight for every station, or they'll be provided alternatives.

Most likely, you'll end up in Querious, it's underpopulated, fairly rich, and gives you breathing space to recover. The remenants of SoT will very likely have completely moved on or been absorbed at this point.

If the Goons are smart, and despite forum posting evidence to the contrary, their leadership is, PL would be given some R64s to keep them functional. IT will inhabit Fountain, and then the 'real war' begins with Goons being the primary target. On the flip side, Querious might be the next region targeted for the very same reasons given above, it's also easier to assault than Delve... great time to start selling stuff in Khanid, definate sellers market.

And there is my completely useless shot in the dark, for your amusement. Be sure to ignore it, none of it will ever happen.

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.06 08:59:00 - [36]
 

Yeah, I don't really expect us to win the war in the end, I'm just saying it is not completely impossible, anything can happen.

That's not really the point though. PL has never been about holding sov. I will admit that I'm a relatively new member in sniggerdly with only 6 months in the corp (got in right after delve 2 ended) with an another 8 proving myself in sniggwaffe with limited access to the PL forums and intel on what they were up to, so I may have a few details wrong, but capturing Fountain was a side effect of driving out BRUCE, and holding on to it afterwards being a way to create fights. I don't think many at all would have any issues returning to our roots and start pirating again once fountain has been milked dry, especially now that the r64's are not even close to the profit level they used to provide. As long as there are hostiles to point my guns at and a fun group of people to do it together with, I'm happy.

Arcane Azmadi
Caldari
First Flying Wing Inc
Primary.
Posted - 2010.01.06 14:44:00 - [37]
 

12. Consequently, the art of using troops is this: When ten to the enemy's one, surround him;

13. When five times his strength, attack him;

14. If double his strength, divide him.

15. If equally matched, you may engage him.

16. If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;

17. And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him, for a small force is but booty for one more powerful.

~ Sun Tzu - The Art of War. Chapter III: Offensive Strategy ~



No, I don't actually have anything to contribute to the discussion, I just like quoting Sun Tzu.

Originally by: Fifinella
Originally by: Nox Virago
By the words of Alan Oswald Moore: "Im not locked here with you, you are locked here with me!"


Interesting... I have that exact same quote in a book by S.M. Stirling and David Drake.

You wouldn't happen to remember where that quote is from?


It was Walter "Rorschach" Kovacs from Watchmen.

General Windypops
Gallente
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2010.01.06 15:14:00 - [38]
 

I like quoting too.

Originally by: "Mr Miyagi"
Wax on, wax off. Wax on, wax off


*nods profoundly*

Sator deHarak
Caldari
Templars of Space
Posted - 2010.01.06 15:27:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Rorschach
The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the *****s and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No."


/quotes of watchmen really.

Sinwagon
Amarr
The Maverick Navy
IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.06 16:01:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Ronchu
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Ronchu


HUm this is going places now Ushra'khan has spoken


We're better than you. And yet, we're utterly terrible Embarassed




Yeah u are better than me posting and following the post. keep up the good work but dont talk about pvp since u guys are so bad like you say


Says the guy ninja poasting and doggedly following the poast Shocked

Originally by: Sator deHarak
I guess PL is going back to sniping. Cool


8/10 Very Happy The flavors were subtle and delightful, but a bit more complexity would have drawn out it's true potential. I would save this one and open it up again around the holidays (quite possibly in time for Great War 4).

John Blackthorn
Caldari
Foundation
Posted - 2010.01.06 16:25:00 - [41]
 

Why do they fight? Well because they are a pvp alliance that wants to pvp?

You also have to consider, that a large force game into fountain and started hitting hard targets, and when you counter attack you are just hitting fleet numbers. At some point you get tried of nothing hard to hit and your tired of reping pos's. So you say the heck with it. You let your items fall or you take them down for now.

So that later when the attackers are then putting up hard targets you have assets that you can hit to reduce there income and let them do some repairing of pos's. It's a game of attrition and commitment really.

Now SOT has lost there membership due to internal problems mostly but there still a small fighting force to contend with. And PL and Goons are by no means a force to just dismiss. I suspect PL and Goons will go where every the fight is, because.. well that's what they do.

John Blackthorn

Sephiroth CloneIIV
Gallente
Rim Worlds Republic
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.01.06 22:21:00 - [42]
 

I see the point losing the space is inevitable, though they still wont stop fighting because thats what alliances do constantly, they allways have a enemy. It gives a constant objective for people to shot.

Also the PL alliance (and friends in region) being pvp one is obsessed with kills, so why run away from a oppertunaty to get some. They also might have assests might be impractical to move away, and the easyest way to liquidate them into money might be to fully insure each the ships and use them all in fights. If kill death ratios are good, they could reduce the number of assets that could be used latter against where they move next (along with allies taking them in).

Assuming they all ran, then IT would faster have a base of power to attack goon space, its not like they would ever stop trying, one invasion will go into another.

John Blackthorn
Caldari
Foundation
Posted - 2010.01.07 17:11:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Avernus

If you can't pull together the numbers yourselves, then those numbers have to come from allies. SoT isn't PL's younger brother, they are rupturing members as their claimed space recedes, and when their last outposts fall, you'll see it split. Of those remaining when the time comes, half will leave SoT altogether, the other half will be basing from PL outposts (if you allow them to remain, I'm guessing you will). SoT morale will be as low as it can get at that point, whoever remains, will be there for the long haul, but the individual corporations and pilots will be hurting for isk, and what they bring to fights will definately be showing. Their performance and numbers will depend primarily on how PL treat them.



Speaking from a former sot member, I feel that sot always felt they were like a brother to PL. And I know that the membership put in a lot of hard work and spent a lot of time, effort, and isk into defending Fountain when I.T Arrived. The fall of sot was not directly the result of the fight with i.t. but from within. You can have a good alliance leader that comes and goes in game during times of relative peace. But when there is hard core fight to be won you can't go for weeks without direction, and coordination between corporations.

As for the outposts falling, it never mattered to sot that any outpost would fall. It hadn't been really long since we dropped the v6, 9dq, and pxf outposts before the sov changes. I know I'm not the only one to be really disappointed in all the effort and isk involved to set those outposts up for the sov benfits of not having pxf attackable only to have the sov mechanics changed on you. If we knew that there would be no more invulnerability we would have never dropped the towers. SOT never moved into the outposts and really never had any assets to worry about in those stations because we all stayed over in the npc stations.

Hind-site is a great thing... Another issue that sot had, and people did point it out ahead of time and I and others didn't listen... is that the npc cloaning station was in yz- and we didn't base in that system as a group. Once yz- was camped in cloaning was more more difficult. If sot as well as friendly moved into yz it would have made things more difficult for i.t. Or we could have all moved to v6 and actually use the outpost/cloaning.

So there are plenty of reasons why things are what they are now.

-John

Avernus
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.01.07 17:31:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: John Blackthorn

You can have a good alliance leader that comes and goes in game during times of relative peace. But when there is hard core fight to be won you can't go for weeks without direction, and coordination between corporations.

Yeah, lack of leadership during hard times can be a death knell for an alliance. It isn't always the case, especially if the alliance has a good set of FC's to pull up the slack and have a talent for getting people involved, more so when objectives are straight forward. When it really hurts is if there is a lack of cohesion without the alliance leader being there, and more so if there is a need for strategic decisions that the FC's can't agree upon or aren't willing to make.

As you say, hindsight is great, but like experience, it's something you get right after you needed it the most.

General Windypops
Gallente
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2010.01.07 20:51:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: John Blackthorn
I feel that sot always felt they were like a brother to PL


Didn't it bother you, then, that they speak about you guys with such disdain? I was genuinely surprised that you guys fought alongside them for so long once those logs were made public.

inyreye
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.07 21:28:00 - [46]
 

so basically SoT is complaining about not having any leadership, yet nobody stood up and tried to lead?

hmmm

HARYBARY
Amarr
Tea Bag Inc
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.01.07 21:56:00 - [47]
 

YES we fail!
YES we lost main part of our alliance!
Strange, we still on top 20 in official KB database.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20&type=alliance

Very strange.ShockedShocked

and YES we still have 73%+ efficiency on IT KB

http://www.it-kills.us/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=631

Fallen Buckshot
Amarr
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.01.07 21:57:00 - [48]
 

R I S E Above

Dr Ngo
Amarr
JESUS CHRIST IT'S A LION GET IN THE CAR
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2010.01.07 22:03:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: HARYBARY
YES we fail!
YES we lost main part of our alliance!
Strange, we still on top 20 in official KB database.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20&type=alliance

Very strange.ShockedShocked

and YES we still have 73%+ efficiency on IT KB

http://www.it-kills.us/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=631


Friendly kills don't count.

General Windypops
Gallente
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2010.01.07 22:10:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: HARYBARY
Y
Strange, we still on top 20 in official KB database.


That's Hurley hardly very impressive

Nessa Aldeen
Caldari
The Sword and The Shield
Posted - 2010.01.08 11:07:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: IRISH JESUS
Edited by: IRISH JESUS on 04/01/2010 06:17:49
I am not a supporter of Either side in the Fountain War. But I have a question for Zenith Affinity, Pandemic Legion, and pets. Why stay and continue to fight? You know you have already lost. Everyday IT takes more control over the region. This is affecting your alliances in the long term. For example Zenith Affinity is losing corps. Why not move somewhere else like Querious and gather your strength for a later invasion?


LOL ZAF? PVP? hahaha... continue to lick the balls of GS and PL its tasty but PVP alliance youre not nor will you ever be... so gather what strength?

John Blackthorn
Caldari
Foundation
Posted - 2010.01.08 17:15:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: HARYBARY
YES we fail!
YES we lost main part of our alliance!
Strange, we still on top 20 in official KB database.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20&type=alliance

Very strange.ShockedShocked

and YES we still have 73%+ efficiency on IT KB

http://www.it-kills.us/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=631


Oh my... I just had to reply to this. I remember saying this to an sot FC when he was stating corp's were not participating enough. And I quoted KB stations I was very quickly told that kb stats don't mean crap, and isn't a real judge of participation. And not to use KB stats in my argument for participation again. And now this quote from a member of same corp the FC is in. Priceless...

-John

Hanabi Kazan
Gallente
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2010.01.08 17:35:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: John Blackthorn


Oh my... I just had to reply to this. I remember saying this to an sot FC when he was stating corp's were not participating enough. And I quoted KB stations I was very quickly told that kb stats don't mean crap, and isn't a real judge of participation. And not to use KB stats in my argument for participation again. And now this quote from a member of same corp the FC is in. Priceless...

-John


you were the worst corp in a crappy alliance, hth

Arrador
Caldari
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
Posted - 2010.01.08 17:56:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Hanabi Kazan
Originally by: John Blackthorn


Oh my... I just had to reply to this. I remember saying this to an sot FC when he was stating corp's were not participating enough. And I quoted KB stations I was very quickly told that kb stats don't mean crap, and isn't a real judge of participation. And not to use KB stats in my argument for participation again. And now this quote from a member of same corp the FC is in. Priceless...

-John


you were the worst corp in a crappy alliance, hth


Pot, meet kettle.


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