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Gravy Fries
Posted - 2010.01.02 05:54:00 - [1]
 

I recently got my hands on a Vargur, and absolutely love it for running level 4's. It's abilities are nothing short of staggering, and the amount of time this ship saves running these kinds of missions is jaw-dropping. While I was doing them, I kept a close eye on the angular velocity of the npc's. Only once or twice did they ever get close to the tracking of my guns. In almost every other circumstance, is seems, the enemies get blown apart before they can get within 10km to even become a tracking issue.

I was using 1x TC with a tracking script, and 1x TE. Again, PLENTY of tracking. But then I started playing around with putting an optimal range script in the TC... I figured that, if I wasn't using the tracking speed, why not put the bonus toward more falloff? More applied dps, especially within that magical "half-falloff" range where the hit chance doesn't degrade so sharply.

I've noticed much of the conversations about the Vargur here on the forums tend to focus quite a bit on maximizing tracking speed, and it's making me wonder "amidoinitrite?" Neutral

Do you other Vargur pilots hit the afterburner and go max speed right into the thick of a nest of battleships in order to really focus that dps and, therefore, need the tracking speed due to the tight orbits? Or do you mostly do what I've been doing and chew them up outside of 10km as they close distance (I rarely move, quite frankly). I've been considering getting another TC and fitting yet another range script on it in order to improve the dps profile even further.

So... Is a ton of tracking speed worth it?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.02 06:23:00 - [2]
 

I use optimal scripts.

-Liang

Newbie Ned
Minmatar
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Posted - 2010.01.02 06:51:00 - [3]
 

Since Dominion I have also become lazy with the Vargur. Anything smaller than a BS pops so easily - anything inside 50km I don't think twice about, although that makes salvaging as you go trickier. I will head towards BS to get more dps and to make the subsequent salvage quicker. In most missions the biggest time limitation is how quickly I can click on things!

Occasionally frigs will get in close (not clicking quick enough!) but that gives my drones something to do.

I will keep the AB, though, it is handy when you have to move - I can't stand slow boating.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.01.02 09:08:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Naomi Knight on 02/01/2010 09:10:51
Vargur is awesome mine does 800dps(t1 ammo) with 70km falloff+drones and have a 580dps sustained omni tank with AB mounted.
I usually start killing frigs first,most of those can be 1 shotted up to 50km easily, while I go closer to bses. Oh and it can track even destroyers at their orbit range.

Imho vargur >> other marauders :)

Omar Khayyam
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.01.02 10:28:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Edited by: Naomi Knight on 02/01/2010 09:10:51
Vargur is awesome mine does 800dps(t1 ammo) with 70km falloff+drones and have a 580dps sustained omni tank with AB mounted.
I usually start killing frigs first,most of those can be 1 shotted up to 50km easily, while I go closer to bses. Oh and it can track even destroyers at their orbit range.

Imho vargur >> other marauders :)


agreedLaughing. After dominion i decided to stay in vargur and cancelled training for a golemYARRRR!!

Merbusent
Posted - 2010.01.02 11:02:00 - [6]
 

I fear a lot for typeing anything negative about the vargur, but come on a bils worth of faction for a maelstrom?!

Alpha India
Posted - 2010.01.02 15:41:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Merbusent
I fear a lot for typeing anything negative about the vargur, but come on a bils worth of faction for a maelstrom?!


'Tis no Maelstrom!

Gravy Fries
Posted - 2010.01.02 15:52:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Merbusent
I fear a lot for typeing anything negative about the vargur, but come on a bils worth of faction for a maelstrom?!


The Vargur has two key bonuses that the Maelstrom does not. Being an AC boat, the 7.5% bonus to tracking is great for being able to hit things that get a little too close (although the original point of my thread was to debate whether extra tracking beyond this was worth it).

The second bonus, and arguably the Vargur's best selling point, is the 10% falloff bonus. This comes off of the Minnie BS skill, so as soon as you climb into the Vargur, you're enjoying a whopping 50% to falloff that you wouldn't get in the Maelstrom. This allows the Vargur to shoot AC's to insane-o distances. Using 3x T2 Ambits, a TE and 2x TC's with optimal scripts and Fusion ammo, my falloff is 74km (with Barrage it's 111km). What this means is the Vargur can apply approx. 80% of it's dps at 37 km. Inside 20km, and you're closing in on 100% Inside 15km or so, and you're pretty much there--1000 dps. This is enough to almost completely forego any kind of a tank whatsoever. Ships fly apart so quickly that I don't drop drones any more except for the occasional close frigate that doesn't get insta-popped at 50km.

I was daunted by the price tag, too, but the Vargur runs missions so much faster than my old Maelstrom it's almost hard to believe. I was running some missions with some corp mates a few days ago in order to get their standings up. They were in a Vexor and a destroyer to "keep the small ships off me". Well, they rarely ever had the chance to engage anything, frigate or otherwise. I had to consciously let ships through the face-melting dps so they would have something to do. It's that effing awesome. Shocked

Arthur Frayn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.01.02 16:35:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 02/01/2010 16:35:38
Forget the Vargur. Buy a Machariel, fit it with 3 faction gyrostabs + 3 tracking enhancers, a couple of falloff rigs, a deadspace shield tank, faction ammo, and you'll do 1100 dps and have 80km falloff with autocannons.

Deb Dukar
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.01.02 18:54:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Deb Dukar on 02/01/2010 18:55:36
no idea (yet) how the vagur does but my tempest and maelstrom with 800mm allready tear throught the enemy lines with no problem at all. i put falloff rigs on both ships to make this possible.
im not using a tracking computer at all (just 1 trackign enhancer) and i hit frigs up to 8-10km. everything else gets ****d by my drones. but i have to admit ... barley anything comes that close to me especialy since i shot frigs first.

so basicly ... no, tons of tracking are NOT worth it.

Newbie Ned
Minmatar
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Posted - 2010.01.02 20:30:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Merbusent
I fear a lot for typeing anything negative about the vargur, but come on a bils worth of faction for a maelstrom?!


ROFLMAO - good one!

Veryez
Posted - 2010.01.02 21:01:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Veryez on 02/01/2010 21:01:57
I fly mine a bit differently. I use basically a t2 setup, with 3xGyro's and 2xTE's. Using an AB, a cap booster, and an XL shield booster. I normally fly flat out w/the AB on and only burst the shields and cap when needed. Yes it takes a bit more work, but it tears through most missions at amazing speeds. The AB allows me to consistently put npc's in that 10 - 20k fast killing range, but even 35k is close enough to take out any NPC battleship.

I normally use manual flying so that I don't fly into the npc's, but close by them, adjusting as needed to keep my overall speed up, sometimes towards the end I orbit @ 10k when there are just BS left. Like others I kill frigates at range then usually reduce the BC/cruisers very quickly, then the BS. I have never found trouble hitting anything if the angular velosity is below .04 (the 2xTE II setup has .088 tracking w/800's). I also have been watching their transverse velosity which is easy to keep under 300 m/s with manual flying (hence the 10 to 20k killing range).

I have been playing with the thought of dropping to a medium cap booster, and putting a burst aerator rig in to up the dps even more (the sub 3 sec rof is very enticing). I know others who sit still and kill everything, but waiting for stuff to come into range and the extra damage you take doesn't seem worth it. I have put my setup through AE bonus room, WC, and the assault with no problems, I want to try mordus HH, which could easily change my thoughts, but this is how I fly it, I was wondering how others did it. So to answer your question, no, added tracking of a TC w/tracking script wouldn't be needed for me (since I don't use a TC at all). And yes I am really liking flying this ship. Very Happy

Edit - and Liang, could you pls post your setup, I am very interested in your thoughts.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.02 21:34:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Veryez
Edit - and Liang, could you pls post your setup, I am very interested in your thoughts.


Sure, and I sent you an evemail. It has 800s, 3 hardeners, TC, MCB, 3 Gyro, 2 TE, Cap safeguards. The cap safeguards were laying around. Embarassed

TBH I'm not even using it atm though - I noticed last night that character wasn't even training. Embarassed

-Liang

Gravy Fries
Posted - 2010.01.02 21:35:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 02/01/2010 16:35:38
Forget the Vargur. Buy a Machariel, fit it with 3 faction gyrostabs + 3 tracking enhancers, a couple of falloff rigs, a deadspace shield tank, faction ammo, and you'll do 1100 dps and have 80km falloff with autocannons.


Yes, if one has no interest in salvaging (which isn't the ludicrous endeavor it used to be, as I'm sure we would all agree) or looting (I only loot large wrecks with the Vargur), the Machariel would definitely be the way to go. If I didn't feel complelled to loot all the large wrecks, I would have gotten one of those.

People Eater
Posted - 2010.01.02 22:11:00 - [15]
 

I fit my Vargur for maximum falloff and dps. 4x gyrostabilizers, 1 tracking enhancer, 2 tracking computers (optimal range) with barrage ammo. It has 106km falloff with barrage, which is the only ammo type I ever bring with me for any mission. I've never had trouble hitting anything except for cruisers or frigs orbiting me under 5ish km's. Anything within locking range dies, and it dies quickly :)

Only downside is no afterburner since I don't want to sacrifice one of the 3 hardeners. Switching a GS for a TE and replacing the tracking coputer for an AB will still get the job done with only slightly less dps.

fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
Posted - 2010.01.02 22:30:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: fuxinos on 02/01/2010 22:30:05
Use Fusion for 20% more tracking to hit everything lol.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.01.02 22:34:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: fuxinos
Edited by: fuxinos on 02/01/2010 22:30:05
Use Fusion for 20% more tracking to hit everything lol.

Hmm my fusion doesnt give me a tracking bonus :(

fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
Posted - 2010.01.02 22:35:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: fuxinos on 02/01/2010 22:37:43

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: fuxinos
Edited by: fuxinos on 02/01/2010 22:30:05
Use Fusion for 20% more tracking to hit everything lol.

Hmm my fusion doesnt give me a tracking bonus :(


Ups, Titanium Sabot Embarassed

: I think this is as good as it can go:

[Vargur, New Setup 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Core B-Type 100MN Afterburner
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Pithi C-Type Small Shield Booster
Pithi C-Type Small Shield Booster

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II

Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II


Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.01.02 22:44:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: fuxinos
Edited by: fuxinos on 02/01/2010 22:37:43

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: fuxinos
Edited by: fuxinos on 02/01/2010 22:30:05
Use Fusion for 20% more tracking to hit everything lol.

Hmm my fusion doesnt give me a tracking bonus :(


Ups, Titanium Sabot Embarassed

: I think this is as good as it can go:

[Vargur, New Setup 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Core B-Type 100MN Afterburner
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Pithi C-Type Small Shield Booster
Pithi C-Type Small Shield Booster

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II

Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II




Yes mine is very similar ,but i use 1 med shield booster+shield boost amply instead of the 2 small+ I have 2 cap rig t1.
Didnt see the need for t2 :)

Miriiah
Posted - 2010.01.02 23:22:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 02/01/2010 16:35:38
Forget the Vargur. Buy a Machariel, fit it with 3 faction gyrostabs + 3 tracking enhancers, a couple of falloff rigs, a deadspace shield tank, faction ammo, and you'll do 1100 dps and have 80km falloff with autocannons.


My Vargur does 1163 dps, 75km fallof has better tracking, and I can tractor beamz! also uses way less ammo

Myrkala
Minmatar
Rebel Inc
Posted - 2010.01.06 20:15:00 - [21]
 

Take your Vargur, fit 2 TE's and one T2 projectile tracking rig.


Fit Dual 425 mm Large autocannons, compare tracking with Medium Autocannon (425mm). Twisted Evil

Torpir Lee
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2010.01.06 20:42:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Myrkala
Take your Vargur, fit 2 TE's and one T2 projectile tracking rig.


Fit Dual 425 mm Large autocannons, compare tracking with Medium Autocannon (425mm). Twisted Evil


Is that before or after you add the gun's sig radius into the tracking formulaWink

But yeah, Vargur is a beast.

JordanParey
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2010.01.07 00:02:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: Myrkala
Take your Vargur, fit 2 TE's and one T2 projectile tracking rig.


Fit Dual 425 mm Large autocannons, compare tracking with Medium Autocannon (425mm). Twisted Evil


Is that before or after you add the gun's sig radius into the tracking formulaWink

But yeah, Vargur is a beast.



nice.

So, how much of a tank do I really need on this thing? I flew an arty Mael around for quite some time, with the same midslot/lowslot setup that I would use with the Vargur. I have most of the fit for my Vargur (waiting the 6 hours to finish Energy Upgrades 5 so I can inject Marauders 1) and I am wondering if any of you have suggestions for my setup that weren't mentioned on my thread (page 2 of Ships and Mods)


Laughlyn Vaughns
Gallente
Lagos-Vaughn Industries
Posted - 2010.01.07 01:39:00 - [24]
 

fit Hail L and cry as u cant hit a station from 5km Very Happy

i love the falloff and tracking of auto's tho, my sleip can hit at about 25km ith 425 II's and EMP M

Newbie Ned
Minmatar
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Posted - 2010.01.07 06:57:00 - [25]
 

With the shortest range ammo a decent set-up gives 3.9 + 85.
With Barrage I get 7.8 + 127 - thats nearly an AC sniper!!
Very HappyVery Happy

Kisena
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.01.17 05:03:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Kisena on 17/01/2010 05:06:38
just wanting to clarify you guys are getting this insane falloff with ac and not artys? holy god thats insane! and i personally have to say the fact that vargur is a shield tanker makes me happy i personally hate armor tanks. oh and whats the cap stability on these builds?

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2010.01.17 07:29:00 - [27]
 

lol.

I remember when people said that the Vargur was a piece of crap.

It's funny how a patch changes things.

Marko Riva
Posted - 2010.01.17 10:18:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Marko Riva on 17/01/2010 10:18:45
The great advantage is that due to the bonuses and fitting your guns work everywhere, at 80km and at 5km. Also because the rof is rather high compared to arties and missiles (to an extend) you have less lost damage due to overkill, insta damage from turrets is also better (and less boring) than missiles. Personally I prefer the Machariel but a Vargur is very nice these days, the problem is that I just can't see CCP keeping it that way.

Kaian Voskhod
Posted - 2010.01.17 10:53:00 - [29]
 

TO ANSWER TO THE OP


I fly a MACHARIEL. This ship is similiar to the vargur. Combat wise, the mach has more dps but less tracking than a varg. I dont have any tracking issue because i manually pilot the ship in order to reduce the transversal.

Kaian Voskhod
Posted - 2010.01.17 11:03:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Miriiah
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 02/01/2010 16:35:38
Forget the Vargur. Buy a Machariel, fit it with 3 faction gyrostabs + 3 tracking enhancers, a couple of falloff rigs, a deadspace shield tank, faction ammo, and you'll do 1100 dps and have 80km falloff with autocannons.


My Vargur does 1163 dps, 75km fallof has better tracking, and I can tractor beamz! also uses way less ammo


Can i have your fit please + implants (maybe)

and tell me your method of calc.


Because my mach ends with 1220 dps taking reloading time in the dps calculation (of course!)

Any way, the REALLY downside of the mach and vargur is the crappy "puff" effect when AC fire.ugh



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