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blankseplocked Hunting the lag monster [Updated 1-6-10]
 
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CCP Tanis

Posted - 2009.12.23 22:14:00 - [1]
 

Howdy folks,

If you participated in this testing, please take a moment to stop by our feedback tread and tell us what you think!

[Thursday's test has been cancelled; we will be changing the format of testing and posting new tests soon.]

We are looking into the situation surrounding medium/large scale fleet battles, both in low-sec and also in 0.0. To get to the bottom of this we must run a series of mass-tests against both Dominion code and pre-dominion code.

These tests will begin Tuesday, January 5 at 5pm UTC. They are expected to last for about 2 hours, each. We need at least 100 pilots, preferably 500+… the more people who show up, the better.
_________________________________
Test schedule:

Tuesday [January 5] @ 17:00 GMT (0.0 Fleet)
Thursday [January 7] @ 17:00 GMT -- Cancelled
_________________________________

How to connect to the Test Servers for this test:
Each test will require making 2 separate installs as we will be testing on 2 different servers! (patches are now available, see link below)

  • Make TWO copies of the current Tranquility (TQ) client

  • One test will not require a patch (it will use the TQ build)

  • Test patch is now available! Click me

  • You should NOT be using the Sisi patch, if you're on the sisi patch page, you're in the wrong place!

  • Patch one of the copied clients to the test build

  • Create a shortcut to eve.exe

  • Edit the 'target' line of the non-patched client's shortcut: add " /server:singularity" (note the space at the beginning)

  • Edit the 'target' line of the patched client's shortcut: add " /server:87.237.38.51" (note the space at the beginning)

  • Login to the test server

  • Join the in-game channel "MassTesting"

  • Listen for instructions and ask questions in-channel


What exactly is being tested?

0.0 Fleet tests:
[This test has changed slightly, please read carefully]

  • We will begin by conducting 2 short(ish) fleet fights on pre-dominion code (Patched client): One where we have one fleet warp into the other within the same solarsystem and another where one fleet will jump into the other from another solarsystem.

  • After the first fight, we will move to the Dominion test (non-patched) server and then conduct the same 2 tests as above.



Low-sec FacWar tests:
[Tentative: We may need to postpone this test, pending implementing additional server-side tools that are required]

  • The first test will take place on Multiplicity (patched client)

  • We will move players into appropriate militia corps

  • We will then battle over control of a system in factional warfare

  • Once the first test is complete, we will move to Sisi and repeat the same test again.

  • During this test we will also test large-scale warp-in/jump-in lag.



What else should I know?

  • You will want to bring a fleet-setup BS or smaller.

  • You should pay attention to your FPS (use ctrl+f to view in-game)

  • Anyone able to use multiple accounts is strongly encouraged to bring your alts!

  • CCP staff and ISD will be on hand prior to the test to help move players to the starting location

  • Feedback thread will be posted at the time of the test

  • Use drones!

  • Give weapon linking a try

  • Spider tanks 4tw



Ruziel
Minmatar
Twilight Military Industrial Complex
Posted - 2009.12.23 22:25:00 - [2]
 

It should be noted that there is currently no TQ (120813) -> Sisi (121200) patch available.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.12.23 22:30:00 - [3]
 

Should do it next week rather than 2 weeks from now, every day is important. That's also like 9am/noon on tuesday for us US peeps, methinks I will not make it Very Happy

GL to ridding EVE of lag in 2010!

Blue Harrier
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.23 22:43:00 - [4]
 

May I suggest one of the tests carried out on the Dominion code is a large scale warp in with and without using the ‘Fleet Finder’ logic code as this seems to correlate to some people reducing lag by not ‘fleeting up’ to warp a large number into a system.

This code is also one of the major changes to fleet warfare introduced with Dominion

CCP Tanis

Posted - 2009.12.23 22:44:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Ruziel
It should be noted that there is currently no TQ (120813) -> Sisi (121200) patch available.


One test will be using the current TQ build of the client, the other will require a special patch, which will be posted closer to the actual test-date.

thisisnotmikaldrey
Posted - 2009.12.23 23:49:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: thisisnotmikaldrey on 23/12/2009 23:51:49
hey hey

ive noticed that the new fleet window generates lots of lag especially when the fleet window (member list) is open; broadcast window not so much.

ive also noticed that anything standing related generates lag. whether its looking up pilots info, opening the character sheet standings and when the overview has multiple standings (orange/neutral/reds) ive thought that maybe the client/server is trying to generate so much standing info in such a short ammount of time the client cant handle it.

i also generate lag when i flip chat channels. they have a delay and will lag me out in fleet fights so i tend to take off the blink from every channel and only keep fleet open.

dunno if any of thats usefull to you.

ps jump/travel lag sucks so hard my dyson get jealous. you might want to think about traveling a few systems with 200 people trying to jump all at once :/

Red Thunder
WEPRA CORP
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.12.23 23:57:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Red Thunder on 23/12/2009 23:59:36
you dont hunt the lag monster


it hunts you


/edit
oh and if it makes any difference, in large fleets fights iv noticed theres a certain level of fighting at which the lag really kicks in, then once you drop below that it goes pretty much back to normal

Captian Conrad
Minmatar
Empyrean Warriors
Posted - 2009.12.24 00:02:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Red Thunder
Edited by: Red Thunder on 23/12/2009 23:59:36
you dont hunt the lag monster


it hunts you


...only in russia Wink

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2009.12.24 00:24:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Obsidian Hawk on 24/12/2009 00:24:37
CCP Tanis -

In an effort to help you guys I offer this input.

#1 When testing you should make sure to put the battles along gates and have bubbles up. Like a couple of larges and some dictors. Most fleet warfare occurs along gates.

Remember people try to break gate camps with large blobs. Its an effort to provide realism.

Also, people should be jumping into the system, not everyone warping to a single beacon and then killing each other, sorry warping to a beacon is not realisitic pvp.

#2 One test should be at an online pos,

Even in high sec, when entering / leaving warp around a gate, or any activity near a gate, there seems to be a much higher latency on the end of a client.

This is with brackets off and most stuff turned off from the over view.

These are just some thoughts and what not from my experience in 0.0

Captian Conrad
Minmatar
Empyrean Warriors
Posted - 2009.12.24 02:23:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Its an effort to provide realism


This is about coding, not realism..the aim ladys and gents it to crash the server, then ccp can check da logs Cool

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2009.12.24 04:16:00 - [11]
 

Always ready for a rollback, eh?

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2009.12.24 04:29:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Captian Conrad
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Its an effort to provide realism


This is about coding, not realism..the aim ladys and gents it to crash the server, then ccp can check da logs Cool



you are missing the point. most battles are going to take place on gates or pos towers. Not at organized areas on beacons. If you want to find where the problem is at, you need to re-create it with the most accurate pre-existing conditions.

As of late this is fleet wars of people trying to bread 200 man gate camps. So to do this, the fleet battle needs to be staged on the gate with fleet B jumping into system with fleet A waiting.

On an additional note, for the fleet battle hotdropping needs to be set up, as that is also a common thing that happens in fleet battles.

The more the battle on the test server is like a TQ one, the more information CCP will get.

You cant just expect everyone to jump to a beacon and duke it out. Fleet warfare doesnt work like that in EvE, nor does it provide all the data CCP needs. We need battles on gates and at pos towers.

ForceM
Gallente
POS Builder Inc.
Silent Requiem
Posted - 2009.12.24 09:44:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Originally by: Captian Conrad
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Its an effort to provide realism


This is about coding, not realism..the aim ladys and gents it to crash the server, then ccp can check da logs Cool



you are missing the point. most battles are going to take place on gates or pos towers. Not at organized areas on beacons. If you want to find where the problem is at, you need to re-create it with the most accurate pre-existing conditions.

As of late this is fleet wars of people trying to bread 200 man gate camps. So to do this, the fleet battle needs to be staged on the gate with fleet B jumping into system with fleet A waiting.

On an additional note, for the fleet battle hotdropping needs to be set up, as that is also a common thing that happens in fleet battles.

The more the battle on the test server is like a TQ one, the more information CCP will get.

You cant just expect everyone to jump to a beacon and duke it out. Fleet warfare doesnt work like that in EvE, nor does it provide all the data CCP needs. We need battles on gates and at pos towers.


Correct .. as for all we know the gates / tower codes might be part of the problem which causes the lagg

thisisnotmikaldrey
Posted - 2009.12.24 09:54:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: ForceM

On an additional note, for the fleet battle hotdropping needs to be set up, as that is also a common thing that happens in fleet battles.



Fighters cause an immense amount of lag :''( fighter bombers on SISI do even more lag :'''''(

also confirming that carriers > dreads in terms of lag . .. and hot drops and cynos dont cause much lag per se but desync like buggery. after reading about ticks and times when clients sync i looked at hotdrops and noticed that they dont seem to have a session change and you go one system to another in a cynoflash. you lag out on land and often dont load the exit or entrance grid (undock lag ftl) forcing the client to sync during a cyno might reduce cap lag.

Fireblade Stu
Minmatar
Equilibrium Corporation LTD
Posted - 2009.12.24 10:23:00 - [15]
 

Will a newbie Rifter setup be of much use to you in this testing at all?

Misaki Yuuko
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.24 12:58:00 - [16]
 

Yes, any single number added will help recreate issues.

Iguanoid
Caldari
No.Mercy
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.12.24 15:40:00 - [17]
 

This is great to hear. Please remember NOT to reinforce the node that is being tested.

Merbok
Gallente
The Hull Miners Union
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2009.12.24 17:06:00 - [18]
 

I will try and be there. Thanks a ton for addressing this CCP. I have been in a few large fleet battles in geminate recently and I can't tell you how frustrating it is, it has gotten worse. Its a game wrecker.

Thank you!

Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.24 18:18:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 24/12/2009 18:18:12
So, in other words, we need to wait another 2 weeks for CCP to even begin testing these problems that everyone has reiterated exist since the patch deployment almost 3 weeks ago? Maybe it is just me but that is absolutely absurd.

This is just like the desync issues all over again, weeks of silence, finally acknowledgment of the issue with some testing next we will see couple of patches with "this should fix it" then 14 months of CCP doing nothing about it and it being a status quo in eve that desyncs are part-in-parcel of fleet engagements, followed finally by CCP actually getting there head out of there ass and somewhat-fixing it.

Ikathis sihtaki
Posted - 2009.12.24 18:21:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Ikathis sihtaki on 24/12/2009 18:30:42
wow, forums are odd aren't they..

kyrieee
Bite me inc.
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2009.12.24 18:21:00 - [21]
 

About time

I'll be there. Make sure you have fleets jump through gates onto crowded grids because those have been the worst situations on TQ

Ikathis sihtaki
Posted - 2009.12.24 18:28:00 - [22]
 

STUPID FORUMS.

Anyway, for the 3rd attempt at this, this time I will cut and paste...


I noticed the Lag to become increasingly worst when they changed it from gang, to fleet. Then they changed it to drop fleet bonuses when booster is in warp. So now everytime fleet warps, fleet gates, fleet undocks, etc it has to figure out WTF every ships new stats are. Maybe a way to address this, is to go back to leaving bonuses from booster on ALL the time, not turning on and off everytime the fleet booster does something.

Now we cut and paste so I don't have to retype this for 4th time. Everytime it changes weeeee.


Nikodiemus
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2009.12.24 18:37:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Bobby Atlas
Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 24/12/2009 18:18:12
So, in other words, we need to wait another 2 weeks for CCP to even begin testing these problems that everyone has reiterated exist since the patch deployment almost 3 weeks ago? Maybe it is just me but that is absolutely absurd.

This is just like the desync issues all over again, weeks of silence, finally acknowledgment of the issue with some testing next we will see couple of patches with "this should fix it" then 14 months of CCP doing nothing about it and it being a status quo in eve that desyncs are part-in-parcel of fleet engagements, followed finally by CCP actually getting there head out of there ass and somewhat-fixing it.


I agree. CCP how dare you take action to fix a problem a few weeks after it was acknowledged. Get out your time machines and speed this up, you have them right?

Seriously though considering the lag//grid loading was unplayable in the last k25 skirmish on a what ccp Warlock claimed to be a triple reinforced node with only about 500-600 in system something is seriously wrong. I am glad you guys acknowledged the areas having the most problems, sent out someone to check on it (even though he needed to stay a bit longer...) and are going at the problem. \0/

Ikathis sihtaki
Posted - 2009.12.24 20:23:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Bobby Atlas
Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 24/12/2009 18:18:12
So, in other words, we need to wait another 2 weeks for CCP to even begin testing these problems that everyone has reiterated exist since the patch deployment almost 3 weeks ago? Maybe it is just me but that is absolutely absurd.

This is just like the desync issues all over again, weeks of silence, finally acknowledgment of the issue with some testing next we will see couple of patches with "this should fix it" then 14 months of CCP doing nothing about it and it being a status quo in eve that desyncs are part-in-parcel of fleet engagements, followed finally by CCP actually getting there head out of there ass and somewhat-fixing it.


SHaddup. They been tryin to beat the lag outta the game for how long now? You all act like this is new thing. Alter play style till it gets fixed (which we know is impossible), or move the fleet in early and log out for the next day engagement. I dunno. Maybe if folk would guit tryin to squeeze a bowling ball into a tennis ball launcher..

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.12.24 20:36:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Razin on 24/12/2009 20:41:17
Edited by: Razin on 24/12/2009 20:38:50
Originally by: Ikathis sihtaki
Originally by: Bobby Atlas
Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 24/12/2009 18:18:12
So, in other words, we need to wait another 2 weeks for CCP to even begin testing these problems that everyone has reiterated exist since the patch deployment almost 3 weeks ago? Maybe it is just me but that is absolutely absurd.

This is just like the desync issues all over again, weeks of silence, finally acknowledgment of the issue with some testing next we will see couple of patches with "this should fix it" then 14 months of CCP doing nothing about it and it being a status quo in eve that desyncs are part-in-parcel of fleet engagements, followed finally by CCP actually getting there head out of there ass and somewhat-fixing it.


SHaddup. They been tryin to beat the lag outta the game for how long now? You all act like this is new thing. Alter play style till it gets fixed (which we know is impossible), or move the fleet in early and log out for the next day engagement. I dunno. Maybe if folk would guit tryin to squeeze a bowling ball into a tennis ball launcher..

You don't know wtf you are talking about. This is some kind of new lag that showed up after Dominion went live. 100-300 in local/on grid was ok before, now it's almost like 1000 in local pre-Dominion.

P.S. And I'm also unhappy about this testing not even starting for another two weeks.

P.P.S. Is CCP going to finally try to fix TURRET LAG in fleet battles?? This has been happening for what seems like years!!

Ikathis sihtaki
Posted - 2009.12.24 20:45:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 24/12/2009 20:38:50
Originally by: Ikathis sihtaki
Originally by: Bobby Atlas
Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 24/12/2009 18:18:12
So, in other words, we need to wait another 2 weeks for CCP to even begin testing these problems that everyone has reiterated exist since the patch deployment almost 3 weeks ago? Maybe it is just me but that is absolutely absurd.

This is just like the desync issues all over again, weeks of silence, finally acknowledgment of the issue with some testing next we will see couple of patches with "this should fix it" then 14 months of CCP doing nothing about it and it being a status quo in eve that desyncs are part-in-parcel of fleet engagements, followed finally by CCP actually getting there head out of there ass and somewhat-fixing it.


SHaddup. They been tryin to beat the lag outta the game for how long now? You all act like this is new thing. Alter play style till it gets fixed (which we know is impossible), or move the fleet in early and log out for the next day engagement. I dunno. Maybe if folk would guit tryin to squeeze a bowling ball into a tennis ball launcher..

You don't know wtf you are talking about. This is some kind of new lag that showed up after Dominion went live. 100-300 in local/on grid was ok before, now it's almost like 1000 in local pre-Dominion.

P.S. And I'm also unhappy about this testing not even starting for another two weeks.


Huh, guess i don't know what i am talking abbout, only been in several engagements since the upgrade, where there were over 100+ in local at least 90 of them on grid, and no lag. Little desynching, ships showing farther then they should be on overview but whatever, i dunno what i am sayin i guess. I coulud be like the you and just whine and cry about it even though we all know ccp is going to move at their own speed cuz guess what, that is what a business does, moves at its own speed that it can cope with. Remember they are business, they have procedure and what not they follow. but anyway, lets all run to the forumz and scream and shout and whine and yell like the children sitting behind me. No wonder ccp sits back and laughs at all you dumb folk.

Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.24 20:50:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 24/12/2009 20:54:56
pre-dominion you could have an engagement in an unreinforced node with upward of 400-500 people and not have much in the way of issues other than couple of seconds of module lag. Post-dominion, even on reinforced nodes, 200-300 man battles are almost unplayable let alone 500-600 man battles which previously on a reinforced node you could easily get 800-1200 people with relatively no issue.

A perfect example is the other day atlas used a system to midpoint our 200 man support fleet through with a titan bridge, the minute we did this that system completely failed - our entire fleet got stuck in the system for nearly an hour with a complete inability to get out or do anything. There was no fighting in this system, nothing - just using it as a mid point to move our fleet.

P.S: I think everyone accepts that module lag is part-in-parcel of large fleet fights but the symptoms of a module getting stuck for 5-10 or more minutes cause you did not use manual fire psudo-techniques properly is just ******ed. Example, manual fire gun, if you click to deactivate gun/module before it has complete 2 full cycles then the gun becomes locked and unusable for 5-10 minutes or more; if you do it properly though, wait for module to cycle twice before clicking to deactivate, then you can fire again instantly with no issue. We should not have to use these kind of psudo-mechanics in fleet engagements, it quite frankly is broken beyond belief.

Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2009.12.25 01:33:00 - [28]
 

I'll be there with my alts.

Dregek
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.12.25 06:59:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Ikathis sihtaki

Huh, guess i don't know what i am talking about, only been in several engagements since the upgrade, where there were over 100+ in local at least 90 of them on grid, and no lag.


90 on grid LOL this isn't lame ass faction warfare this is 4 or 5 alliances consisting of fleets which can run into 400 or 500 people on "each" side, where they are nearly all on the same grid with each other. 90man battles to 0.0 people is two roaming gangs fighting.
This lag is some of the worst in almost a year, **** i was in 49-u when local went to 1400 people and lag wasnt this bad.

Go do some real LARGE scale warfare and say the lag isnt bad then

Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist

KosmikZA
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.12.25 07:44:00 - [30]
 

Keep in mind guys, I suspect ccp is going to be adding exception based code to the server to try and catch the problems and that is probably what is going to take the two weeks prior to test.

Dying on gate jump in before grid load is no fun Crying or Very sad Definately take gates and pos's into consideration and you need a lot more than a hundred. Thousand would be a better number.


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