open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Why is it everytime an alliance starts losing they insta-disband?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

domitesting
Posted - 2009.12.23 13:41:00 - [1]
 

This is even for long standing alliances, but just seems that the only 'TRUE' Alliance has ever been Bob/IT all others just either dont last 2 minutes or disband when they are not winning...

Vysnaite
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.12.23 13:45:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: domitesting
This is even for long standing alliances, but just seems that the only 'TRUE' Alliance has ever been Bob/IT all others just either dont last 2 minutes or disband when they are not winning...


A) Sounds like IT propaganda tbh
B) There are more alliances that survived their downfall.
C) It's related to morale - many armies in the past have lost morale to fight and the nation/empire collapsed. Of course there are much more factors, but people tend to bail when things go to hell - why? A lot of reasons, but I'm too lazy to type them all.

Shoukei
Caldari
Boobs Ahoy
Posted - 2009.12.23 13:47:00 - [3]
 

english bro, english!

well, at least we know you are not a goon, unless you're one of them euro goons.

Glassback
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.12.23 14:34:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: domitesting
This is even for long standing alliances, but just seems that the only 'TRUE' Alliance has ever been Bob/IT all others just either dont last 2 minutes or disband when they are not winning...


Assuming not a troll....

Goons seem to be surviving, Red Alliance still exists afaik, AAA still logs on etc etc.

The reason some alliances/corps insta die when put under pressure is that they were dead anyway.

TazDev
Amarr
DRUCKWELLE Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.12.23 14:43:00 - [5]
 

Corporations as community > alliances as community

alliance start to fail -> grunts not happy -> corps move on

Loosing main corps is the reason why alliances disband

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.12.23 15:01:00 - [6]
 

There has been many alliances that have lasted thru losing their territory, licking their wounds in some NPC region and coming back in force to take revenege and actually taking it. Only ones that explode under even slightest pressure are those where everyone and his dog get's recruited. Ie many newer alliances desperate for memebers to get the 'critical mass' togehter.

Examples of alliances lasting even under strong pressure or thru losing territories are red alliance, firmus ixion, stain empire, cva and ushra khan, IAC and many others whose names I can't remeber from top of my head. Ahh yes - goons also. They were also once stomped into ground. Some of those mentioned have disbanded a while later for internal reasons or as a result of leader burnout.


Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.12.23 15:13:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: TazDev
Loosing main corps is the reason why alliances disband


Evil or Very Mad

ceaon
Posted - 2009.12.23 15:26:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: TazDev
Loosing main corps is the reason why alliances disband

then making a alliance that dont have main corps should be the solution ?

NightF0x
Gallente
Intergalactic League of Terrorists
Posted - 2009.12.23 15:31:00 - [9]
 

Technically BOB disbanned

Firkragg
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.12.23 15:55:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: NightF0x
Technically BOB disbanned


twice

davet517
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.12.23 16:10:00 - [11]
 

I've been in an alliance or three on a number of different characters in 6+ years. Some that I have been in were like a big corp. I've been in others where the players in different corps barely knew each other. Needless to say, those with very low morale and cohesion tend to fall apart the first time they come under any pressure at all.

At the end of the day, it comes down to a lack of leadership and vision. An alliance is only going to succeed for as long as it's members buy into a common definition of success, how to achieve success, and what being a member of that alliance means.

If you look at any of the big alliances in Eve's history, they started out with that common vision. When their vision of success and how to achieve it was tested, it was either proven and they became stronger, or disproven and they fell apart, and their members looked for a new vision of success and how to achieve it to buy into.

Strong leadership is rare, even in a community this size. Ego and charisma are far more common, and often confused with leadership, but when tested, tend to fail spectacularly.

Long live EvE.


Ana Vyr
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.23 16:19:00 - [12]
 

Because people can't stand to lose.

This dictates a lot of behavior in EvE. Carebears are just one example of this.

This sort of thing is just going to get a lot worse as time goes on. Kids are not being taught how to lose or fail at anything anymore.

Ocih
Amarr
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2009.12.23 16:48:00 - [13]
 

Its a game, its supposed to be about fun and entertainment. The typical loss in EvE is one sided and unpreventable. People want to log in and play, not be station camped for 2 months while the enemy they can never beat smashes thier assets into oblivion for no obvious reason.

Most wars are like doing Lv. 3 Mining missions. Whats the point?

Hugo Lordmagnus
Vexillari
Posted - 2009.12.23 16:49:00 - [14]
 

To add some psychobabble, there's probably a heavy influence of identity and the individual's or corp's sense of self. People see themselves as strong, clever, and successful. If they are a part of a larger group that seems to be on a downward spiral, then they may feel that they don't belong to it--or rather, it does not adequately represent them.

If they disband, whether as a corp or as an individual, then they are no longer part of the "losing" entity that was the alliance. Their sense of identity is back in line with how they envision it.

They didn't actually lose; they just left a losing alliance.

jjit
Posted - 2009.12.23 16:54:00 - [15]
 

It is a game design issue.

The attitude of "you really should join a corp/alliance and no problem if that does not work, then find another one." leads to fail-cascades (or even success-cascades.) If there is little cost/resistance to changing your organization, then if you encounter a setback many find it easier to just find the latest FOTM organization. You can't lock customers into failure.

The upside to this is more dynamic organizations; the downside is a lack of loyalty and longevity.

Adeline Grey
Posted - 2009.12.23 16:56:00 - [16]
 

Because in most alliances, most corps are only out for themselves, and more often that you might think, they hate the other corps in their alliance. They are only there to profit for themselves, so as soon as the fighting starts and their assets are at risk they leave. Why risk your assets when you can just join another alliance that is not under attack?

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.12.23 16:59:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ocih
Its a game, its supposed to be about fun and entertainment. The typical loss in EvE is one sided and unpreventable. People want to log in and play, not be station camped for 2 months while the enemy they can never beat smashes thier assets into oblivion for no obvious reason.

Most wars are like doing Lv. 3 Mining missions. Whats the point?


Pretty much this.

Only reason BoB lasted so long was because the leaders of all the corps had so much history together, and this is true of many big alliance. Most alliances gain and shed corps quite rapidly.

Avoida
Posted - 2009.12.23 17:02:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: domitesting
This is even for long standing alliances, but just seems that the only 'TRUE' Alliance has ever been Bob/IT all others just either dont last 2 minutes or disband when they are not winning...


Atlas..lost space in Drone Regions to Legion/RA/IRC awhile ago, now controls Insmother, Detorid, Omist, Wicked Creek and is stomping WI up in Geminate.

IRC..bought space then lost space in Drone Regions and retreated to lowsec/empire and now bought space again in Drone Regions.

Red Alliance..they have lost, regained, lost and regained territory how many times and are still around.

Bruce...woops..nevermind. Very Happy

Tia a'Kanat
Caldari
Paramilitary Skanks
Posted - 2009.12.23 17:06:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ana Vyr
This dictates a lot of behavior in EvE. Carebears are just one example of this.


Even better example would be hisec griefers, who pick on helpless targets because they don't like to lose.

Cors
It's A Trap
It's A Trap Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.23 17:46:00 - [20]
 

Theres 2 types of corps in EVE.

The Profit corp: which is only there for the profit of the individuals. This could come from ratting, minning, missions, production, moons, whatever. Once the profit is gone, or the profit/loss ratio is =, then they bail.

The PVP corp: Make no mistake, MANY corps call themselves pvp corps, but VERY few TRULY are. The PVP corps are there for PVP. For them, Holding space in 0.0 is just a means to an end. If you plant your flag, SOMEONE will attack you. Boom. PVP. These corps will stick together no matter how hard you hammer them. They can loose EVERYTHING, and they'll just move away, recoup, rearm, and reattack. These corps are rare, and if they meet other corps with similar ideals, they will meld into an alliance that others fear. Goons and IT are the two big ones now. There have been many in the past.

One group cracks under pressure, the other gets crushed into a diamond, that is harder/stronger then ever.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2009.12.23 17:47:00 - [21]
 

because of dark matter.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.12.23 17:50:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Cors
Theres 2 types of corps in EVE.

The Profit corp: which is only there for the profit of the individuals. This could come from ratting, minning, missions, production, moons, whatever. Once the profit is gone, or the profit/loss ratio is =, then they bail.

The PVP corp: Make no mistake, MANY corps call themselves pvp corps, but VERY few TRULY are. The PVP corps are there for PVP. For them, Holding space in 0.0 is just a means to an end. If you plant your flag, SOMEONE will attack you. Boom. PVP. These corps will stick together no matter how hard you hammer them. They can loose EVERYTHING, and they'll just move away, recoup, rearm, and reattack. These corps are rare, and if they meet other corps with similar ideals, they will meld into an alliance that others fear. Goons and IT are the two big ones now. There have been many in the past.

One group cracks under pressure, the other gets crushed into a diamond, that is harder/stronger then ever.
You forgot the third corp archtype.

The Merc corp: They fail at making meaningful isk and competant pvp at the same time.. ugh

Ghoest
Posted - 2009.12.23 17:56:00 - [23]
 

Because they are "alliances" - duh.

They are held together by mutual interest. Corps(guilds) are help together by camaraderie.

Almost no allainces in EVE are built on a principal except goons.

Ryusoath Orillian
INDUSTIENCE
Posted - 2009.12.23 19:57:00 - [24]
 

i was in bruce. the only reason they survived as long as they did was becuase no one really bothered to attack them.
then pl came and ended the party.


fountain was like hisec back then, but it was only safe because it was so rare to see a red people forgot what they were.

first bit of aggression and corps left in droves.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.12.23 20:01:00 - [25]
 

Why is it every time I break someone's backbone they insta-collapse and won't get up anymore?

It's kinda boring finishing them off when they're neither fighting nor running away. Mad

Hsan Evets
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.23 20:07:00 - [26]
 

Because corps join 0.0 alliances for their space. When that space is taken away, these corps would rather join another 0.0 alliance already in place than dig in and rebuild.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.12.26 20:29:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Hsan Evets
Because corps join 0.0 alliances for their space. When that space is taken away, these corps would rather join another 0.0 alliance already in place than dig in and rebuild.


It's not that bad. There are corps that join also alliances that are looking to take a territory and then stick to it until it's over one way or another. It is not as common ofc as far as I understand than someone trying to find alliance that already has territory and is recruiting. Same sort of uncommon stuff that corps that think that logging off in combat is lame and are willing to kick the members who are caught doing it. Or pirates that actually honour their ransom.

The reputation. It sticks to one. If you flip the side once under pressure you will be for the rest of your life labeled as turncoat. EVE is all about reputation, as one can break his honour only once, when it's broken then it's broken. Word of mouth is going around in eve and when some new people try to join your alliance you ask around among your ... contacts ... what kind of guys they are and they will be known - either by their corp name if they are old enough or by some older players in their ranks or labeled as new, unknowns and propably unreliable as they will lack the unity and history to really last under pressure - propably. At the end of day EVE is all about the reputation. Will you bring it or will you run for the hills when it's bringed to you.

Titen
Posted - 2009.12.26 21:40:00 - [28]
 

Most 0.0 alliances are just a bunch of carebears who do nothing but hide behind their numbers in order to maintain what they feel is 'dominance' over their chosen opponent.

These alliances recruit 'PvP' corps to come into their mix, but in the end it's just a blob. It doesn't matter if you've got an alliance of 100 well trained combat pilots, ready to defend their home in space. If 500-1000 non-combat carebears (read: "Big Alliance") show up to crash the server, they can pretty much do whatever they want and there's nothing you can do about it.

So, the big alliances - though they cycle through corps like water - survive just because they are big. If being cannon fodder is your version of fun, then a big alliance is your ticket. If flying around in huge groups of ships without actually being able to fire your weapons because the server can't handle the load is your way of life, then a big alliance should appeal to you.

But when you've served your purpose, and the major fighting slows down a bit (hehe.. 'fighting'.. I use that term loosely), and you ask the question "Ok, now that I've shown myself to be a team player - where is my reward?", that's when you'll get the boot and be replaced by the next group of wannabees who want to prove themselves.

Or, you could be different. You could join a smaller alliance and work on a more personal basis. After a couple weeks you recognize voices on voice comms, eventually being accepted into the folds of the alliance community. Your ideas and/or issues are heard, discussed and worked out. You make friends, have a good time and participate in all forms of gaming fun. You and your comrades start building something, claiming a little space, maybe put up a jump bridge network in a few systems - and start to look like an actual alliance.

You struggle through the various name-calling and 'noobism' posts thrown at you in various discussion forums as you train your pilots to the point that you are not only a viable force in your area - the big alliances find that your tactics, training and logistics are well thought out and that you might not be such a simple group after all.

That's when they take a weekend, form up a fleet that outnumbers you 30:1, come into your area and lag the server to the point that even if you could undock into their station camp, you'll be dead before you can even load the grid. Plus you'll have the same results when trying to jump into a battle grid if you happen to be undocked already. Calling in support from any neighboring alliances wont work, because they can't load the grid either - so the server's inablity to handle the load, in the end, becomes the primary reason for your losses.

Morale, ability, skills, training, defensive positioning.. none of that matters at all if you cant use them. If the screen wont load, you can not win - or even attempt to win. When it's all over, you've lost everything, your 'enemy' gets what you had - and then they brag about how cowardly you were because you wouldn't undock, or you wouldn't jump the gate into their 500 man fleet, or you wouldn't.. you get the point.

So, it doesn't matter if you've got the greatest group of friends in the universe, all skilled up and trained, with ships fit for perfect battle, and a willingness to fight. If the screen wont load - all that training, time, isk and effort is for nothing.

When it's over with you ask yourself the question, "What now?". Some will stay to regroup and hope for revenge. Others will give up on trying to 'make it work' in deep space, and return to a life of 'carebearing in empire'... which, aside from new toons being created, is probably the singlemost cause for the continued rapid growth of empire populations in EvE.

How to fix it? I don't think you can. There will always be vast numbers of unskilled and incapable pilots who simply can not win without a blob. And they'll always be called 'Major Alliances".

Such is Eve.
T


Strategos
Genco
Posted - 2009.12.27 06:07:00 - [29]
 

Just BoB/IT? There are a couple alliance that have gone through some close deaths. Just from experience I know IAC survived a LOT of beatings, though yes, they are generally gone now. :(

NEMESIS SIN
Posted - 2009.12.27 07:17:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: NEMESIS SIN on 27/12/2009 07:21:10
Originally by: davet517
I've been in an alliance or three on a number of different characters in 6+ years. Some that I have been in were like a big corp. I've been in others where the players in different corps barely knew each other. Needless to say, those with very low morale and cohesion tend to fall apart the first time they come under any pressure at all.

At the end of the day, it comes down to a lack of leadership and vision. An alliance is only going to succeed for as long as it's members buy into a common definition of success, how to achieve success, and what being a member of that alliance means.

If you look at any of the big alliances in Eve's history, they started out with that common vision. When their vision of success and how to achieve it was tested, it was either proven and they became stronger, or disproven and they fell apart, and their members looked for a new vision of success and how to achieve it to buy into.

Strong leadership is rare, even in a community this size. Ego and charisma are far more common, and often confused with leadership, but when tested, tend to fail spectacularly.

Long live EvE.





Um no . . .




Originally by: Adeline Grey
Because in most alliances, most corps are only out for themselves, and more often that you might think, they hate the other corps in their alliance. They are only there to profit for themselves, so as soon as the fighting starts and their assets are at risk they leave. Why risk your assets when you can just join another alliance that is not under attack?




This. Without question this . . .



As a former alliance leader, I can tell you that most of EVE's player base is a collection of selfish little twits who pretend like they want to work together, only so they can serve either their own egos, or fatten their own personal wallets. No amount of "leadership" in the world will change this.


The question you should be asking is why do people enter into an alliance in the first place? Is it a 0.0 pipe dream to hold sov, protection from wardec, or maybe its just to fuel the ego of the hosting corporation? As soon as its "members" become disenchanted (meaning they start loosing some isk and their little carebear bubbles go poof) they will cut their losses an run.


The present major alliances are stable because they are "famous." People are far less likely to ditch an alliance like Razor, MH, PL or Goonswarm at the drop of a hat. These alliance have moons to feed on, tech II BPO's to manufacture with, and players with 8-10 accounts that like to do nothing but get rich and fuel a manufacturing division of epic proportions deep inside of uncontested nullspace surrounded by blues. They can do this this because they have amassed both wealth and rare items since the beginning of EVE Online. The newer players of EVE know this . . . and so, for the most part, people stay with the famous names when things go south for a while.



Now ask yourself this . . . if your rinky-dink little alliance does not have any of those things, why should I stay with you? All the big names in EVE Online are hiring atm do to dominion, I'll just go ride that gravy train instead.


Selfishness creates most alliances, selfishness breaks them apart, and self interest keeps the big/famous ones together. Self intrest rules EVE Online . . . much like real life Wink


Anyone who says different has not seen both sides of the coin.


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only