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Dabljuh
Posted - 2010.01.28 15:47:00 - [721]
 

Originally by: marakor
1 laser bs vs 1 blaster bs both webbing each other ok?.
Stop you right there. In that case, both ships are equipped to fight within blaster range. Blasters still have a mild DPS advantage - but consider this: Your average pulse boat has less mid slots than your average blaster BS and will prefer to keep a short ranged BS target at 20+kms.

I'm not saying it should be impossible to track, I'm saying it should take some effort, such as fitting modules or even downsize the guns (my suggestion gives the smaller tiers significantly more tracking than the higher tiers)

Zilberfrid
Posted - 2010.01.28 16:04:00 - [722]
 

I may be strange in this, but I think instant reload would help hybrids greatly, you can start them out at long range dam, switch to shorter range when the opportunity arises, it also helps effective DPS (though only a minute amount).

This also would help differentiation in weapon types, Lasers have instant reloading lasting ammo, projectiles have non-instant reloading, non-lasting ammo, hybrids would fall between them with instant reloading, non-lasting ammo, drones can be argued to be non-instant reloading, lasting ammo.

Grut
The Protei
Posted - 2010.01.28 17:06:00 - [723]
 

Originally by: Dabljuh
Originally by: marakor
1 laser bs vs 1 blaster bs both webbing each other ok?.
Stop you right there. In that case, both ships are equipped to fight within blaster range. Blasters still have a mild DPS advantage - but consider this: Your average pulse boat has less mid slots than your average blaster BS and will prefer to keep a short ranged BS target at 20+kms.

I'm not saying it should be impossible to track, I'm saying it should take some effort, such as fitting modules or even downsize the guns (my suggestion gives the smaller tiers significantly more tracking than the higher tiers)


Pure theory crafting, your assumptions are based off 1v1 only... in a multi same class battle who gives a crap about tracking?

For blasters to do anything outside 1v1's they need to out damage lasers by a fair margin to account for travel time, as simple as.

Tagami Wasp
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.01.28 18:52:00 - [724]
 

Isn't this thread about railguns? Just asking...

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.01.28 20:19:00 - [725]
 

Originally by: Grut
Originally by: Dabljuh
Originally by: marakor
1 laser bs vs 1 blaster bs both webbing each other ok?.
Stop you right there. In that case, both ships are equipped to fight within blaster range. Blasters still have a mild DPS advantage - but consider this: Your average pulse boat has less mid slots than your average blaster BS and will prefer to keep a short ranged BS target at 20+kms.

I'm not saying it should be impossible to track, I'm saying it should take some effort, such as fitting modules or even downsize the guns (my suggestion gives the smaller tiers significantly more tracking than the higher tiers)


Pure theory crafting, your assumptions are based off 1v1 only... in a multi same class battle who gives a crap about tracking?

For blasters to do anything outside 1v1's they need to out damage lasers by a fair margin to account for travel time, as simple as.



You should start a "Blaster balance,when do they get some love ?" thread

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2010.01.29 12:53:00 - [726]
 

Originally by: Dabljuh
Originally by: marakor
1 laser bs vs 1 blaster bs both webbing each other ok?.
Stop you right there. In that case, both ships are equipped to fight within blaster range.


The abaddon has the same slot layout as the mega so its a given it will have its mids setup with a web.




Originally by: Dabljuh
Blasters still have a mild DPS advantage.


Wrong.

After resists from each ships available tank are taken into account the baddon out damages the mega by a quite good margin, and it also has a larger tank.

EXAMPLE:



THESE FIGURES ARE FROM STANDARDLY FITTED RR MEGAS AND ABADDONS (as nobody fits 3 mag stabs on a RR mega).

Your mega starts with 7 guns and RR with 832 gun dps and 300 drone dps to be assigned.

300 thermal drone dmg from gaurd less 75.7% = 72.9 DPS.
482.56 kinetic damage from its guns less 71.9% = 135.6 DPS.
394.44 thermal damage from its guns less 75.7% = 84.9 DPS.

YOUR MEGA GETS A TOTAL OF 293.4 MAX DPS AT 4.5KM vs THE ABADDON.

4. Your mega has 73.4 em, 65.5 thermal resists and the abaddon does 58% more EM dmg with its guns than thermal so including the drones and after the megas resists:


The abaddon starts with 7 guns and RR with 802 gun dps and 180 drone dps to be assigned.

180 thr drone dmg less 65.5% = 62.1 DPS.
465.16 gun em damage less 73.4% = 123.8 DPS.
336.84 gun th damage less 65.5% = 116.2 DPS.
THE ABAD GETS A TOTAL OF 302.1 MAX DPS AT 15KM vs YOUR MEGA.


THE ABAD GETS A TOTAL OF 302.1 MAX DPS AFTER RESISTS AT 0-15KM vs THE MEGA.
THE MEGA GETS A TOTAL OF 293.4 MAX DPS AFTER RESISTS AT 0-4.5KM vs THE ABAD.

Your mega actually has 3% LESS DPS and 300% less range, and a WEAK 52.2% explosive resist hole and also has 18% LESS EHP.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.01.29 13:45:00 - [727]
 

Originally by: marakor
Originally by: Dabljuh
Originally by: marakor
1 laser bs vs 1 blaster bs both webbing each other ok?.
Stop you right there. In that case, both ships are equipped to fight within blaster range.


The abaddon has the same slot layout as the mega so its a given it will have its mids setup with a web.




Originally by: Dabljuh
Blasters still have a mild DPS advantage.


Wrong.

After resists from each ships available tank are taken into account the baddon out damages the mega by a quite good margin, and it also has a larger tank.

EXAMPLE:



THESE FIGURES ARE FROM STANDARDLY FITTED RR MEGAS AND ABADDONS (as nobody fits 3 mag stabs on a RR mega).

Your mega starts with 7 guns and RR with 832 gun dps and 300 drone dps to be assigned.

300 thermal drone dmg from gaurd less 75.7% = 72.9 DPS.
482.56 kinetic damage from its guns less 71.9% = 135.6 DPS.
394.44 thermal damage from its guns less 75.7% = 84.9 DPS.

YOUR MEGA GETS A TOTAL OF 293.4 MAX DPS AT 4.5KM vs THE ABADDON.

4. Your mega has 73.4 em, 65.5 thermal resists and the abaddon does 58% more EM dmg with its guns than thermal so including the drones and after the megas resists:


The abaddon starts with 7 guns and RR with 802 gun dps and 180 drone dps to be assigned.

180 thr drone dmg less 65.5% = 62.1 DPS.
465.16 gun em damage less 73.4% = 123.8 DPS.
336.84 gun th damage less 65.5% = 116.2 DPS.
THE ABAD GETS A TOTAL OF 302.1 MAX DPS AT 15KM vs YOUR MEGA.


THE ABAD GETS A TOTAL OF 302.1 MAX DPS AFTER RESISTS AT 0-15KM vs THE MEGA.
THE MEGA GETS A TOTAL OF 293.4 MAX DPS AFTER RESISTS AT 0-4.5KM vs THE ABAD.

Your mega actually has 3% LESS DPS and 300% less range, and a WEAK 52.2% explosive resist hole and also has 18% LESS EHP.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMG, and we are ALL OVER IT again with the same nosense and crap you always spew out. And with the same crap as you always have been proven to be terribly wrong in.

I will say it one more time. Learn to use a good setup on both ship and learn to do math.

Those stats you have here is horrible.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.01.29 14:34:00 - [728]
 

Originally by: NightmareX

Those stats you have here is horrible.


In what way? If he's wrong, rip his math or methods apart.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.01.29 15:08:00 - [729]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 29/01/2010 15:50:30
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: NightmareX

Those stats you have here is horrible.


In what way? If he's wrong, rip his math or methods apart.

I have done it multiple times before with the exact same copy and paste stuff marakor wrote over, and all of the times i have done it, it have been proven that he's using an okish setup on the Abaddon while the setup on the Mega are rather crap. And he did some few errors in his math to.

Just look up on those earlier Blaster topics to find the proof.

One of the things i found out is that when both the Mega and the Abaddon used very similar setup with 7 guns and one RR each and when the Mega used 1 MFS while the Abaddon used 2 HS, then still, the Mega did more DPS than the Abaddon after the resists. I think the Mega did like 9.6% more DPS in Blasters optimal with Drones included than the Abaddon there while the Abaddon had 13% more armor HP over the Mega.

So when Dabljuh said this: 'Blasters still have a mild DPS advantage' to marakor, then he was right. But marakor replied back that it was wrongLaughing.

The thing is that, since this have been proven multiple times, then there is absolutely no point to discuss it here at all. Because it's pointless. marakor will just end up by getting proved wrong times after times if he's continues to go on with his 'YEY, Amarr ship and Lasers are so FOTM' crap.

So just to be very clear here, if marakor or any of his alts replies back in this topic about anything about the thing with the Mega and the Abaddon and their stats, then it clearly means he haven't learned anything and have never really left the Amarr = FOTM dream world yet. And it will also means he's trolling the hell out of this topic.

But i'll guess you all knows this already after the earlier Blaster topics where no one did agree with him AT ALL, except for his own alts, because he was horribly wrong. marakor is sophisticatedlimabean after all. So no one really believe him anyways.

Tagami Wasp
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.01.29 16:20:00 - [730]
 

Assembly Hall thread here.

It's only for railguns, if you want a Blaster Needs some love thread, create one.

lil Ghork
Posted - 2010.01.29 16:47:00 - [731]
 

Originally by: marakor
Originally by: Dabljuh
Originally by: marakor
1 laser bs vs 1 blaster bs both webbing each other ok?.
Stop you right there. In that case, both ships are equipped to fight within blaster range.


The abaddon has the same slot layout as the mega so its a given it will have its mids setup with a web.




Originally by: Dabljuh
Blasters still have a mild DPS advantage.


Wrong.

After resists from each ships available tank are taken into account the baddon out damages the mega by a quite good margin, and it also has a larger tank.

EXAMPLE:



THESE FIGURES ARE FROM STANDARDLY FITTED RR MEGAS AND ABADDONS (as nobody fits 3 mag stabs on a RR mega).

Your mega starts with 7 guns and RR with 832 gun dps and 300 drone dps to be assigned.

300 thermal drone dmg from gaurd less 75.7% = 72.9 DPS.
482.56 kinetic damage from its guns less 71.9% = 135.6 DPS.
394.44 thermal damage from its guns less 75.7% = 84.9 DPS.

YOUR MEGA GETS A TOTAL OF 293.4 MAX DPS AT 4.5KM vs THE ABADDON.

4. Your mega has 73.4 em, 65.5 thermal resists and the abaddon does 58% more EM dmg with its guns than thermal so including the drones and after the megas resists:


The abaddon starts with 7 guns and RR with 802 gun dps and 180 drone dps to be assigned.

180 thr drone dmg less 65.5% = 62.1 DPS.
465.16 gun em damage less 73.4% = 123.8 DPS.
336.84 gun th damage less 65.5% = 116.2 DPS.
THE ABAD GETS A TOTAL OF 302.1 MAX DPS AT 15KM vs YOUR MEGA.


THE ABAD GETS A TOTAL OF 302.1 MAX DPS AFTER RESISTS AT 0-15KM vs THE MEGA.
THE MEGA GETS A TOTAL OF 293.4 MAX DPS AFTER RESISTS AT 0-4.5KM vs THE ABAD.

Your mega actually has 3% LESS DPS and 300% less range, and a WEAK 52.2% explosive resist hole and also has 18% LESS EHP.


So because Abaddon has a resist bonus it recieves less dmg, nice comparison there sporty. Really shouldn't this be a thread about weapon systems not about ships, also tittle seems to indicate rails not blasters.

Abaddon is also a t3 BS and mroe expencive

Jacob Stov
Posted - 2010.02.01 19:05:00 - [732]
 

Well I thought long about it, so here are my ideas:

Gallente ships get RoF instead of damage bonus + a buff to agility.
Caldari get 10% more grid + 15% optimal bonus for T1., 5% damage bonus instead of second optimal bonus for T2.

Then I would like to see a change to ammo:

Antimatter: 70% therm 30% kin damage -50% optimal

Plutonium: 70% kin 30% therm damage -25% optimal
Uranium: 70% therm 30% kin damage -25% optimal

Thorium 70% kin 30% therm damage
Lead 70% therm 30% kin damage

Iridium 70% kin 30% therm damage +25% optimal
Tungsten 70% therm 30% kin damage +25% optimal

Iron 70% kin 30% therm damage +50% optimal

Those grouped together will share the same damage mod, just with different damage preference.
The kinetic damage ammo will reduce RoF by 10% while increasing damage mod by 10%.
Thermal damage ammo will increase fallof by 20% while consuming 10% more cap.

In the end thermal damage ammo will have a slight dps advantage over kinetic ammo at the cost of cap consumption.

Tagami Wasp
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.02.01 19:12:00 - [733]
 

I like your ammo suggestion. I don't think your ship fix is better than my proposal, but your ammo suggestion is very good.

Jardine Khan
Caldari
Grey Wolves Mercenary Guild
Posted - 2010.02.01 19:35:00 - [734]
 

Originally by: Jacob Stov
Then I would like to see a change to ammo:

Antimatter: 70% therm 30% kin damage -50% optimal

Plutonium: 70% kin 30% therm damage -25% optimal
Uranium: 70% therm 30% kin damage -25% optimal

Thorium 70% kin 30% therm damage
Lead 70% therm 30% kin damage

Iridium 70% kin 30% therm damage +25% optimal
Tungsten 70% therm 30% kin damage +25% optimal

Iron 70% kin 30% therm damage +50% optimal




There is one thing I would argue with about your proposal: the difference in damage type ratios between ammo. Aside from antimatter, all those elements have a solid metal state, and thus should have kinetic damage being the higher percentage, especially when used in a railgun which fires solid metal slugs.

However, your idea of switching up the damage types does have potential, just not on the ammo level. Where the difference in damage type ratios should take play is on the turret level, meaning that ammo loaded into blasters should deal more thermal than kinetic and ammo loaded into railguns should do more kinetic than thermal.

The reasoning behind my counter proposal is thus: blasters break down the material in the ammo to its atomic components and thus should do more thermal damage, while railguns fire solid metal slugs and thus should do more kinetic damage. Plus, each race has a damage type preference: Amarr prefer EM damage, Caldari prefer kinetic, Minmatar prefer explosive, leaving Gallante to prefer thermal. This line of reasoning falls into line with the difference in damage ratios based on hybrid turret type; Caldari prefer railguns and thus should do more kinetic than thermal and Gallante prefer blasters and thus should do more thermal than kinetic.

Other than what I have stated above, I agree with your proposal.

Jacob Stov
Posted - 2010.02.01 20:08:00 - [735]
 

Edited by: Jacob Stov on 01/02/2010 20:10:51
Well, I think with the current game code it is not possible to change damage type of ammo by loading it into different guns.
Therefore I tried to find a way to encourage people to load up with the therm ammo on blaster (by giving it a bonus to falloff) and the kinetic type on rails.
Nice sideeffect: Gallente Marauder Pilots could rejoice: finally something to throw at EM weak rats. (Not that I care to much about the frogs Razz)
If we take battleships, I want to reach the following:
More ore less damage parity between 150km and 170km. Apoc with Megabeams, Mega with Spike and Rokh with faction Thorium/Lead should have roughly equal DPS at ~160km give and take 10 km.
Apoc with Tachs a bit above (say ~20 DPS). I think that is justified by the 2 fitting mods one needs to fit 8 tachs.
Mael/Pest slightly below in DPS, but they have their great alpha.
Mega should compete with the Apoc tracking wise below 150km, while the Rokh should be able to reach out up to 200km with somewhat reasonable damage.

Tornicks
Caldari
The Green Cross
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2010.03.02 13:16:00 - [736]
 

Agreed, give us balanced rails.


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