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Der Ewige
Federal Investigations Agency
Posted - 2004.11.15 12:25:00 - [1]
 

We all know, that the launch of T2 missile launcher is postponed until the missiles are balanced. We also know, that the balancing of missiles is postponed past “Exodus” launch.
This putts the minority of missile specialized players in the EVE universe to a disadvantage. Everyone else can mount nice T2 turrets while the missile lovers have no choice than using T1.
I understand that CCP won’t launch T2 missile launcher before the missiles are balanced but in my eyes it is just unfair to postpone this balancing post “Exodus”. At least they could give us the specialization skills so we could learn them already.


But there is a fare more important and unfair thing about missile skills:
While there are six gunnery skills to enhance the turrets, there is not only one for missiles.
For at least 5 of them there would be no problem to find a missile equivalent!

Rapid Firing: Skill at fast turret firing. +4% Bonus to Weapon turrets speed.
Missile Bombardment: Skill at fast launcher firing. +4% Bonus to missile launcher speed

Sharpshooter: Skill at long-range turret firing, 5% bonus to weapon turret optimal range of all sorts.
Missile Booster: Skill at long-range missile firing. 5% bonus to missile top speed.

Motion Prediction: Improved ability at hitting fast moving targets. Grants a 5% Bonus per level to Weapon turrets tracking speed.
Missile Guidance: Improved ability at hitting fast moving targets. Grants a 5% Bonus per level to missile agility.

Surgical Strike: Knowledge of spaceships structural weaknesses, 3% bonus to weapon turret damage of all sorts.
Missile Pointing: Knowledge of spaceships structural weaknesses, 3% bonus to missile damage of all sorts.

Trajectory Analysis: Advanced understanding of zero-G physics. 5% Bonus turret accuracy falloff.
Missile Full Optimization: Advanced understanding of missile flight physics. 5% Bonus to missile flight time.

The only one giving Problems would be:
Controlled Bursts: Allows better control over the capacitor use of Weapon turrets. Grants a 5% per level reduction in capacitor need of Weapon turrets.

Because missiles don’t need Capacitor this skill needs no implementation for missiles.


So please CCP don’t ignore the minority of missile fan’s give us this 5 skills we need ore make the gunnery skills apply for the missiles too.
To give everyone in the EVE-Universe the same chances.

Thank you.

Sally
Caldari
Posted - 2004.11.15 12:35:00 - [2]
 

Yep. This is a sersious problem.

There is also no TL2 ECM, though we have TL2 backup arrays.

OffBeaT
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.11.15 12:37:00 - [3]
 

I understand that CCP won’t launch T2 missile launcher before the missiles are balanced but in my eyes it is just unfair to postpone this balancing post “Exodus”. At least they could give us the specialization skills so we could learn them already.


Balanced? i hope you dont mean they are gona nerf missiles even more. Mad

Pete Edwards
Posted - 2004.11.15 13:22:00 - [4]
 

My character uses missiles a fair bit and has mostly level 5 gunnery as well as Torps and Cruise 5. My only issue with missiles is that being hit by Torps is the worse than being warp scrambled. Means that no ship, no matter how many lows they have fitted with WCSs can align to warp while being hit by them. I thought that was supposed to have been fixed a few patches ago.

That moan aside and on the actual subject of the thread, Caldari ships are the ones who benifit from using missiles and they get bonuses already. If you are another race or pilot a non-Caldari ship, your supposed to use weapons better suited to that particular race. The changes you ask for seem to want to make up the shortfall that other races have with regard missiles, while possibly making the Raven the most overpowered damage dealer with these extra skills. Not withstanding that missiles generally hit the target 100% of the time if the target is slow or doesn't/cannot warp out.

Anyway:

Rapid firing: I have a feeling this already works with missile launchers.

Sharpshooter/Motion Prediction/Trajectory Analysis: Irrelevant, missiles always hit their targets if slower than the missile itself.

Surgical Strike/Missile Pointing: Hmm, I can agree with that. I would say that SS be changed to take missiles into acount though rather that a completly new skill.

The fact of the matter is that the right ships already get speed and damage bonuses, if you want more damage, much the same with turrets, you have to fit damage mods.

T2 missiles and launchers will hit harder, be faster and come with new skills you can bet anyway.

meowcat
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.11.15 13:54:00 - [5]
 

The 'tracking' balance for missiles (missile agility) is LONG OVERDUE.

In all fairness to CCP, they have rightly or wrongly prioritised Shiva before the missile agility changes, therefore they cannot implement T2 misile stuff

Confused

Manfred Doomhammer
Caldari
ShadowTec Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.11.15 14:20:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: meowcat
The 'tracking' balance for missiles (missile agility) is LONG OVERDUE.

In all fairness to CCP, they have rightly or wrongly prioritised Shiva before the missile agility changes, therefore they cannot implement T2 misile stuff

Confused


simple sollution, postpone the release of tech2 guns, and stop them from working until missiles balancing is doneTwisted EvilTwisted EvilRazzRazz


/me runs for cover from inbound napalm strike

Gunstar Zero
Caldari
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.11.15 14:21:00 - [7]
 

I dont see the issue with introducing T2 missile stuff - the best named gear is probably ~90% as good as the T2 will be and the commander kit better still.

we could at least get techII rocket launchers and standard missile launchers.

That said, one presumes Exodus is taking priority just this second!

Aion Amarra
Minmatar
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
Posted - 2004.11.15 14:22:00 - [8]
 

There already is a 'rapid firing' skill ingame.

Missile launcher Operation that is. It gives a 5% Bonus per level.

But I agree. I'd like to see at last these skills implemented into the game.

Der Ewige
Federal Investigations Agency
Posted - 2004.11.15 15:17:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Aion Amarra
There already is a 'rapid firing' skill ingame.

Missile launcher Operation that is. It gives a 5% Bonus per level.

But I agree. I'd like to see at last these skills implemented into the game.


That's not totaly correct: The missile launcher operation is the equivalent to the Gunnery skill.

Hematic
Caldari
R.O.T.
Posted - 2004.11.15 15:36:00 - [10]
 

If they added all those missle skills missles would be overpowered.

I agree that the the t2 equivalents of missles need to be added post haste.

I also think that the webbing effect of missles needs to be taken back out of the game. I thought we had gotten past this but in hunting some NPCs the other day I noticed that missles are much more reliably slowing the ship down again. About one out of three volleys of missles now reduces ship speed of the impacted ship.


Loka
Gallente
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2004.11.15 15:36:00 - [11]
 

the backdraw will also be, that you will need lvl 5 in this "new" skills for T2 launchers, like you need for the T2 Turrets. Are you aware of this?

We all know, Missile ship are favorised in PvP. Raven is the best pvp BS ingame. And with T2 launcher it will just improve.

Launcher have the advantage, that you could get the T2 skill for T2 launcher much faster than turret user.

Also every turret user has to decide if he wants closecombat specialization or long range. Except the Torps/CM there wont be any specialisation and this is unfair imo.

Raven can dish out with 6 siege almost same amount of dmg like a Blasterthron. More than long range Turretships but less than closerange BS.

Iam very curious how CCP would balance this. Because i think T2 fited Raven will be the most popular ships after release of T2 Launchers. Can you follow me?

Manfred Doomhammer
Caldari
ShadowTec Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.11.15 16:12:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Loka
the backdraw will also be, that you will need lvl 5 in this "new" skills for T2 launchers, like you need for the T2 Turrets. Are you aware of this?

We all know, Missile ship are favorised in PvP. Raven is the best pvp BS ingame. And with T2 launcher it will just improve.

Launcher have the advantage, that you could get the T2 skill for T2 launcher much faster than turret user.

Also every turret user has to decide if he wants closecombat specialization or long range. Except the Torps/CM there wont be any specialisation and this is unfair imo.

Raven can dish out with 6 siege almost same amount of dmg like a Blasterthron. More than long range Turretships but less than closerange BS.

Iam very curious how CCP would balance this. Because i think T2 fited Raven will be the most popular ships after release of T2 Launchers. Can you follow me?


and you learned this exactly how?

who says you dont have the same as with turrets, i.e. you have to have rocket5+specialisation to go to light and so forth... would actually be slower than with turrets, no?

please, dont toss around assumptions for facts... thanks Wink

DarkMatters
The Ankou
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2004.11.15 16:21:00 - [13]
 

The missile problem in my opinion is the ability to hit all targets for 100% damage, the instant ganking of anything smaller then a battleship certainly harms PVP

Loka
Gallente
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2004.11.15 16:29:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Loka on 15/11/2004 16:33:52
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer

and you learned this exactly how?

who says you dont have the same as with turrets, i.e. you have to have rocket5+specialisation to go to light and so forth... would actually be slower than with turrets, no?

please, dont toss around assumptions for facts... thanks Wink


Well you are right, they are not out and therefore only speculations.

But you need light missile for heavy, heavy for Torps/CM.
Same for turrets. small for medium, medium for large.
ergo -> you will need specializations for the light and heavy to be able to specialize for cm/torps

so Turretuser have to decide for either closecombat or longrange. And each specialization need a third skill. Like Rail Specs. need Sharpshooter lvl 5!

For Missiles there is no Sharpshooter skill. You get the clue? also you can train long(Cruise) and closerange(Torps) with much less trainingtime!

- large Rails specs. needs medium rail spec and small rail spec
- large Blasters specs needs medium blaster spec and small blaster spec

and missiles? light spec. and heavy spec. for torps AND cruise spec.

Iam curious to see which skills they introduce to ballance Missile/Turret specializations.

Manfred Doomhammer
Caldari
ShadowTec Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.11.15 16:31:00 - [15]
 

well. i guess that is where the above proposed additional missile skills would come in handy then...

Loka
Gallente
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2004.11.15 16:33:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer
well. i guess that is where the above proposed additional missile skills would come in handy then...


Indeed. But the started mentioned the above skills infavor of the missile user. While in real they will balance the overpowered T2 launcher towards the Turrets, when it comes to trainingtime.

But i think that wasnt intended by the starter of this

OffBeaT
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.11.15 16:56:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: OffBeaT on 15/11/2004 17:04:50
Edited by: OffBeaT on 15/11/2004 17:03:56
sometimes the crap you guys ask for is unreal..

i freaken missile is a missile, it tracks its self through a guidance system, not buy the lunchers speed of moving like a hybred weopons or lassers. i mean think about it if a missile hits a plane ass end or face on the damage is planly the same. as for when a missile hits a ship and knocks it off keel.. well freaking Da! when a torpedo hits a ship it will keel and list.. eh! its CALLED BOOOM!! and you shake.

gezz.. soon we will all be in them floting condoms amra's or apoc's. with no real skill to use click the lasser and let the drones do the fighting.

Rift Scorn
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.11.15 17:31:00 - [18]
 

Offbeat, lay off the crack man!Shocked

Yeah, i felt a little bummed out at no T2 Siles or Launchers at the very least, i'm a Raven pilot by trade and have about 3.5Mil SP in Missiles, and not a whiff of T2 missles - Stung!Sad

Hope to see them soon, not holding my breath thoughRazz

Cmd Woodlouse
moon7empler
Ev0ke
Posted - 2004.11.15 21:27:00 - [19]
 

A very good point, Der Ewige.

/signed

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.11.15 21:39:00 - [20]
 

me too

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2004.11.15 22:02:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Sally
Yep. This is a sersious problem.

There is also no TL2 ECM, though we have TL2 backup arrays.


I don't think that will change - Dev's have said they want to look at ECM as a whole.

As it stands, tech 1 ECM overpowered tech 1 ECCM.

Amthor
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.11.15 22:19:00 - [22]
 

please lay off the drugs.

What is this, the third post about how overpowered missiles are? What ever, third lame post.Rolling Eyes

Missles are underpowered in my eyeYARRRR!!, when was the last time you seen a "ganka-raven" take out a BS in 15 seconds? No? never? ah, thats what I thought.
So please stop the maddness.
Neutral

Riddari
VIT
Posted - 2004.11.15 22:34:00 - [23]
 

Give me T2 large repairers and you can have the T2 launchers Cool

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.11.15 22:40:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Riddari
Give me T2 large repairers and you can have the T2 launchers Cool


tech2 xl-shield booster?

Urkl
Gallente
D'Ahrk Prophesy
Posted - 2004.11.15 23:22:00 - [25]
 

By the same argumemt (which I somewhat agree with), projectile users are at a disadvantage. Sure, T2 projectiles guns are out, but until CCP fixes projectiles in general, their users are at a disadvantage compared to users of other T2 turrets. After all, it doesn't matter how much damage your gun can do if it only hits 1/3 of the time, while everyone else's guns are far more accurate.

Goes back to the complaint I've been making for a long time now: FIRST you balance what's already here, THEN you add new content.


OffBeaT
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.11.16 02:09:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: OffBeaT on 16/11/2004 02:17:33
Goes back to the complaint I've been making for a long time now: FIRST you balance what's already here, THEN you add new content.


AMEN Exclamation

but the game must go on. im all for change, but people got too remember that players who have been other players victoms for so long in the game wont too catch up some day, or at lest have a fair fight to a point someday. so they plane for their skills and work them for that reason. ecm, missiles, sheilds, and so on. then nerf, and nerf again. then soon all thouse skills you planed out 4 months or 8 months ago become more skills then more. ok, iv learnd too live with that in the game, but there are only a few things in the game that even out the playing feild like ecm or gunry skills or rocket skills. now i hear ecm will be nerfed, turnd into a mabe % might work when activated against a foe. so there might go any ability for a newer player too out wit a stronger player. like im gona risk a 200mil raven with say 7mil in combat/ship skill point up against a 13mil skilled player on a mabe it might work or not. same with rockets or whatever. ecm too me when you give up your sheild too use it become your sheilds and a mabe will work dont cut it. if the player counters my move with eccm or what have you ok.. im realy starting too get sick of seeing real srong players who wont more and more skills added for real stupid reaons just becouse some guy in a gankagaden or apoc or what have you dont like the fact a noob or lesser skilled player can get the jump on him. like shut down his apoc with a BB or scorp. so they cry for more skills and more skills too beable too do the same thing down the road. so now its getting too the point where do players like me wont too bother puting another 3 to 6 months into the game being someones gank fun or do i just wont too say f it and move back into games that i can be on even terms in a fight again. after awhile you just start getting ****ed off at the game and its enless trying too get a fair deal. we all dont like gank wars some of use like one on one more or small team work fights. i still say pirates make the best one on one players in the game. the training you get from a good pirate corp is worth its wait in gold in this game.. they teach you too be cunning and a surviver in eve. you never get that in most glob corps that only fight in mobs or just wont noobs too mine too make there corps rich.. i wont too keep that cunning in the game not have it skilled out. so i got a bit ****ed at this lets turn rockets into this over skilled thing thats not realy needed.

RollinDutchMasters
Gallente
Ordnance Delivery Services Inc.
Posted - 2004.11.16 02:16:00 - [27]
 

Missiles, as they are now, are arguably the most consistant and effective class of weapon. Your suggusted skills will essentially increase their damage by a third, as well as increase velocity (caio, friggies).

If these skills are ever implemented, then the effectiveness of missiles today will probably be greater then the effect post-nerf with all the skills maxed.

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2004.11.16 02:24:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Amthor
please lay off the drugs.

What is this, the third post about how overpowered missiles are? What ever, third lame post.Rolling Eyes

Missles are underpowered in my eyeYARRRR!!, when was the last time you seen a "ganka-raven" take out a BS in 15 seconds? No? never? ah, thats what I thought.
So please stop the maddness.
Neutral


I can that someone read the original post...Rolling Eyes


jamesw
Omniscient Order
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2004.11.16 02:27:00 - [29]
 

Little bit off topic, but I think that ECM (in its current incarnation) is balanced OK. ECM 1 vs ECCM 2 is reasonably fair IMO.

Deadzone
Caldari
Phoenix Propulsion Labs
Dara Cothrom
Posted - 2004.11.16 03:22:00 - [30]
 

Absolutly definatly signed!


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