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Lyris Nairn
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.12.16 22:45:00 - [1]
 

Stop.

This is not the propaganda thread you are looking for.
This has nothing to do with Amarr, the Minmatar, or Jade Constantine.

Shall we continue? Good.


Slavery is generally referenced as an establishment wholly independent from the rest of society without it. We can look to all our own pasts to see that the slave caste is kept apart--socially and sometimes physically--from the rest of the people in a culture. The slave is an ignorant, uninformed laborer; he is a peon, a pawn, and a piece of uneducated meat that serves an assigned purpose. We live in the State as free Caldari, in the Republic as free Matari, and even in the Federation as free Gallenteans. We live, as visitors to the Amarr Empire, as free foreigners; and, the Amarr themselves are free in their Domain. We are all, in our homes and abroad, free of slavery.

Or are we?

The Amarr scriptures say very plainly that every man, be he free or captive, is a slave to God. The Amarrian religion supposes the existance of a Deity whose will is made manifest through the actions of an Emperor and Councils, whom in turn make their will manifest through Holders and nobility, and them through the commoners and slaves. The Amarr are, to the last man or woman, slaves. The religious among them admit this, and embrace this as the necessary and proper way of living righteously. I commend these spiritually-inclined individuals on their faith, and I have nothing to say against their beliefs. That is not the focus of this paper.

Its focus is on the other three nation-states of humans, who all believe themselves to be "free." We embrace that word as though it is sacred, and we lust for the ideals it represents in each of our minds. We fight wars over it, and we point at the other side each time to say, "{that/those} {man/men} {is/are} trying to steal {my/our} freedom." We rally around this word and turn our eyes away from ourselves. We paint the "enemy" whom we envision as an usurper to be all that is evil. Never do we turn an eye towards our own societies.

I am a free Caldari. I am born into the Sukuuvestaa MegaCorporation. I am educated in a manner that benefits SuVee, to do tasks that SuVee delegates to me down its chain of command. Borrowing the Amarrian model, the State is my Empire; SuVee is my Holder; the specific company for which I work is my commoner or noble Master, and I am his slave. I am free to choose my master, but I am still the property of the Holder: Sukuuvestaa maintains my records, my kredits, my files. It is very easy to draw a parallel between MegaCorporate structure and Holder structure, perhaps because we are allies. What is less easy to imagine, from the perspective of someone not involved, is that this is not necessarily a negative stucture for any of those involved. I directly benefit from SuVee employment: I am provided currency, police forces, advancement befitting my merit, and a world of diversions to keep me entertained. I am compelled towards efficiency, which increases my station as well as increases the company's profit. I am not permitted failure: it would be shameful, and more effectively than a lash against my skin I would punish myself for it. I work with my own master to maintain my continued service in the most effective manner. I am a happy and productive worker. I am effectively a slave.

Here is where my paper ends, in drawing a parallel between Amarr and Caldari. I will not presume to speak for the Matari or the Gallenteans. I suspect that, should one examine the majority rule of the Federation and the machinations of the Republic, that one would find similar models in place to ensure that the free commoner either directly or indirectly does what is best for the group under pain of punishment. If this is not the case, than my supposition is wrong; however, if I am right as I believe I am, then the door is open to analyze the question that caused me to consider this topic.

Are we all slaves?

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2009.12.16 23:05:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 16/12/2009 23:10:37
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 16/12/2009 23:09:51
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 16/12/2009 23:09:13

Ms. Nairn, if your thesis has a problem, it is one of semantics.

If you define a slave as "one who is maneuvered by others into behaving in certain ways and performing certain services," then yes, we are probably all slaves.

If you define a slave as "one who has a close relationship with a central figure of authority, real or abstract, who provides for most if not all needs in exchange for loyal service," then many but not all of us are slaves.

If you define a slave, however, by the traditional definition, "one whom another holds as legal (or illegal, but similarly formal and enforced) property," then relatively few are slaves, including yourself.

All of us are free. All of us are bound. The questions are only "to what and how." Seen in this light, it seems as though you've asked an interesting question-- but one that is not very useful, since its answer is always going to be, "yes and no."

I do realize that you provided a definition of sorts, but that doesn't quite erase the problem. The question and its answer are matters of perspective. If you hold yourself to a particular perspective, then the answer will be clear but incomplete. If you do not hold yourself to a particular perspective, the answer will be complete, but so unclear that it suggests that you asked the wrong question.

Gottii
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.12.16 23:39:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Lyris Nairn
Are we all slaves?


No.

Also, unless your guilty conscious causes you to repeatedly pass out from pain, cuts you to your bare bone, deforms you for life, and has a fair chance of killing you from bloodloss, I think youre over-estimating the pain shame can cause, and underestimating what a lash can do.

Koronakesh
Amarr
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2009.12.16 23:47:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Gottii
Originally by: Lyris Nairn
Are we all slaves?


No.

Also, unless your guilty conscious causes you to repeatedly pass out from pain, cuts you to your bare bone, deforms you for life, and has a fair chance of killing you from bloodloss, I think youre over-estimating the pain shame can cause, and underestimating what a lash can do.


You are underestimating the damage a person can cause to another without ever inflicting so much as a hint of physical pain. Not surprising though, as this is, after all, a delicate procedure.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.17 00:02:00 - [5]
 

Since many people here, especially Matari, seem to have a hard time coming to grips with slavery and what it really means, I will graciously provide a small interactive lecture on the nature of slavery.

I have taken several common roles in our societies. I will subject each of these roles to a number of questions. These questions are designed to shed light on the defining differences between the roles, with the focus on finding the defining element of the role of slave.

The roles are:
Pirate, Citizen, Employee, Soldier, Child, Mental Patient, Prisoner, Slave.

The questions are:
1. Is the person in a unequal relationship with another that has authority/power over him?
2. Is he sometimes coerced by an authority figure by the promise of something good or the threat of something bad?
3. Has he lost free will or the ability to make choices?
4. Can he refuse a wish or order from the authority figure without any negative consequences?
5. Does an authority figures impede his access to goods or freedom of movement or expression in any way?
6. What is the worst thing that can happen by disobeying the wishes of an authority figure?
7. Is the relationship voluntary?
8. Is the relationship brought about by a criminal act?
9. Can the relationship be cancelled at any time without suffering any negative consequences?
10. Is the relationship with the authority figure hereditary?

Answers posted in this thread

Gottii
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.12.17 00:15:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Koronakesh
Originally by: Gottii
Originally by: Lyris Nairn
Are we all slaves?


No.

Also, unless your guilty conscious causes you to repeatedly pass out from pain, cuts you to your bare bone, deforms you for life, and has a fair chance of killing you from bloodloss, I think youre over-estimating the pain shame can cause, and underestimating what a lash can do.


You are underestimating the damage a person can cause to another without ever inflicting so much as a hint of physical pain. Not surprising though, as this is, after all, a delicate procedure.


While no doubt you're still crying at night over what that mean girl said to you in primary school, I'm still picking harsh language over a lash.

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2009.12.17 00:48:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Sinjin Mokk on 17/12/2009 00:58:21
Ms. Narin,


Thank you. I have rarely seen the subject of slavery so well handled. Even those of my own Empire could not define it as well as you. As they say, you have hit the proverbial nail o the head.

I would say that it does indeed have to do with Amarr. But only that of all the major societies, we are the only one where the practice of slavery is legal. You are correct in that we view its legality as a point of scripture.

But let’s look at societies as a whole. All societies have laws. All have common standards on what is viewed by “right” as a society and what is “wrong.” “Right” actions help keep order and help the society prosper. “Wrong” ones do not. Laws are a series of penalties for engaging in a manner that is detrimental to the society. People who engage in such ways are criminals and must exist outside of the society or face punishment in accordance to that society's laws.

An orderly society is one where the laws are many and strictly maintained. A chaotic one has few laws. The Empire and the State favor laws more than the Federation or the Republic. It would be easy to suggest that all four have their pros and cons. However I would point out that statistically-speaking there is more crime in the State and the Empire.

Yes. As societies, the Empire and the State have more law-breakers. This is, of course, because there are more LAWS.

The Federation and the Republic, however have more LAWLESSNESS.

As a system, the Republic doesn’t work because of a few reasons. First, they have thinly copied the Federation as a democracy, but they haven’t gotten it quite right. They are like abused children, lashing out at all forms of authority. This is why there is so much raw anarchy surrounding Republic space. And most Anarchists are really just criminals hiding behind an unworkable political philosophy.

Anarchy doesn’t work. Not for long. Eventually it becomes survival of the fittest, with the biggest, best-armed bullies in charge of the sandlot. Once in power, they grow displeased at the idea of others gaining as much power and importance as they and start calling them dogs and begin to generally behave like brats. Then they realize that the one thing that would keep them in power is…LAW.

The Federation does try. But as we’ve seen in history, a capitalist society, like a republic eventually rots from within and either evolves into empire or devolves into anarchy. But at least in the Federal system, the government might give you a sandwich.

The other major societal difference I would point out is the starvation factor. The Republicans think that the government should not interfere in any way. This means a few people will have great success, but usually on the backs of those who don’t. The Federals would say the same thing, but might enact laws to help those who are really in need. However, once people realize they can skate by on the dole we see the beginnings of corruption and eventual economic collapse.

In the Empire and the State, we do control our citizens, yes. But we also make damn sure they are fed and clothed and want for none of the basic necessities.

The Republic would have you believe we keep our slaves ignorant and stupid and unskilled and in chains. We do not. Neither do we keep them drugged or chipped into oblivion. That would be stupid. Our society would face either an on-going series of continued slave revolts or we would have a useless population, incapable of surviving in a modern, star-faring society. No, in most, I say most of the Empire, slavery is well run, clean and our slaves are like members of our own families. They are well skilled and well-educated. If they weren’t, then our society would collapse from within. Instead, ours is the oldest and most successful.

The State handles things a bit differently, but as you point out, it is all very similar.

Yet these “free” societies would have people think we are “evil.”

Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.17 00:52:00 - [8]
 

I consider myself a slave: I am a slave to God because I consider my own will to be inconsequential in the face of His. But this does not mean we are all slaves to God: Gotti, for instance, has obviously decided that regardless of what God says freedom comes first and so he acts in defiance of His apparent will.

One could say that he is a slave to something else, but if he is told to do something that goes against everything he believes in, regardless of the speaker, he would likely refuse. If God were to tell me to kill every child in a nursery (And if I were quite sure that it was God speaking) I would do so without question, despite the horror such a prospect holds for me.

This is crux of it: If we are all something then none of us are. We may be all slaves to some slight degree, but there is obviously a vast difference between the people I have working for me without compensation and against their will with glaive collars strapped to their necks and a worker for a Lai Dai subsidiary. We recognize this difference between calling the people with glaive collars slaves and the people getting paid employees.

Lyris Nairn
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.12.17 02:58:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Gottii
Originally by: Lyris Nairn
Are we all slaves?


No.

Also, unless your guilty conscious causes you to repeatedly pass out from pain, cuts you to your bare bone, deforms you for life, and has a fair chance of killing you from bloodloss, I think youre over-estimating the pain shame can cause, and underestimating what a lash can do.

I will point out to you the easily-verifiable fact that the State has the highest rate of suicide of all the space-faring nations. This is exactly because of a "guilty conscience," as you put it. But it is significantly more than that. When a man loses face in our society, he is shunned; his high-power job is stripped of him and given to a younger, or more intelligent, or more ruthless peer, capable of exercising his former duties more effectively. If this is due to corporate power-plays, then sometimes it's not a very big issue; if, on the other hand, it is because of a personal failing, then the shame is such that he loses all status.

He becomes an untouchable--worse than a slave in Amarr, I would say. He is denied employment, and he and his entire family are shunned from being allowed to be productive. His past accomplishments mean nothing, and gain him nothing. He is left to bring down his entire family with him, or he can choose the last option remaining to him for dignity: suicide. This is a much more common choice, and it is because of our mentality that the good of the community--the family, the company, the corporation, or the State--far supersedes the good of the individual. It would be selfish of me, were I by my continued life bringing down my family and making their lives miserable, to remain living just to prolong my own existence.

So, yes, Matari. Shame can kill. Shame can torture.

Havohej
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
Posted - 2009.12.17 03:15:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Havohej on 17/12/2009 03:15:42
Originally by: Lyris Nairn
This has nothing to do with Amarr [...] The Amarr scriptures say very plainly...

I don't think I need to comment here, the statement makes itself.
Originally by: Lyris Nairn
I will point out to you the easily-verifiable fact that the State has the highest rate of suicide of all the space-faring nations. [...] So, yes, Matari. Shame can kill. Shame can torture.

That your people have a tendency to be mentally unstable and emotionally weak does not in any way, shape or form equate to the pressures of the State's meritocracy being tantamount to the enslavement our people have suffered and continue to suffer.

You can banter the topic with your fellow Caldari, with your slaver allies and even with the Gallente, but don't think you'll find many sympathetic ears among the Minmatar.

Lyris Nairn
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.12.17 03:24:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Havohej
Edited by: Havohej on 17/12/2009 03:15:42
Originally by: Lyris Nairn
This has nothing to do with Amarr [...] The Amarr scriptures say very plainly...

I don't think I need to comment here, the statement makes itself.
Originally by: Lyris Nairn
I will point out to you the easily-verifiable fact that the State has the highest rate of suicide of all the space-faring nations. [...] So, yes, Matari. Shame can kill. Shame can torture.

That your people have a tendency to be mentally unstable and emotionally weak does not in any way, shape or form equate to the pressures of the State's meritocracy being tantamount to the enslavement our people have suffered and continue to suffer.

You can banter the topic with your fellow Caldari, with your slaver allies and even with the Gallente, but don't think you'll find many sympathetic ears among the Minmatar.

I have not asked for your sympathy or opinion on this matter. I have asked reasonable minds to respond to my original post. If you know such a reasonable mind within your own Republic who feels comfortable with examining your own society from inside of it to see if there is any parallel with what I've already described, then feel free to please direct him here. I'll thank you to avoid trying to railroad this topic into an anti-Amarr, anti-Slavery propaganda thread. There are already plenty of those—go rabble in one of them.

Havohej
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
Posted - 2009.12.17 03:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Lyris Nairn
I have not asked for your sympathy or opinion on this matter. I have asked reasonable minds to respond to my original post. If you know such a reasonable mind within your own Republic who feels comfortable with examining your own society from inside of it to see if there is any parallel with what I've already described, then feel free to please direct him here. I'll thank you to avoid trying to railroad this topic into an anti-Amarr, anti-Slavery propaganda thread. There are already plenty of those—go rabble in one of them.

Your entreaty for sympathy is implicit in your whining about the State's suicide rate.

I am neither a member of nor even more than marginally welcome in the Minmatar Republic.

For you to utter the word "reasonable" in this topic, where you attempt to draw similarities between suicidal corporate failures and people held against their will and controlled by whip, drug and any other deviant means the slavers can dream up is preposterous. Learn what "reason" is before asking us to indulge your nonsense.

Sepherim
Amarr
Ordo Quaesitoris
Ordo Magna
Posted - 2009.12.17 03:49:00 - [13]
 

Mr. Mokk has been quite clear, and has covered many of the issues that are key in my own interpretation of slavery as well. But, I'll try to address a few others, to add to those.

Slavery is the capacity of someone to order you around, to have overwhelming power over your person. It can be by recognizing you as his own property, or by making your whole life dependant o his decisions. It can be open, or it can be subtle.

Yet, in the end, power is in the human nature. There are no societies which show no trace of any kind of power, that remains only possible in theory (anarchism and communism, specially). If there are people with power over others, then the others are dependent on them. If they depend on them, they are slaves. Maybe they recognize it or not.

This is where laws intervene, as Mr. Mokk pointed out. Laws pass that property from another individual's hands, to those of an organization or a state. They legalize the submission of the individual to the interests of those organization, and organize procedures to make sure the individual remains in that proper path. Social traditions, and peer-to-peer regulations work in the same way, as you have pointed out in the case of shame for example.

All those things do is keep the differences in power stable and working. Accepted. Legitimized. So, in the end, they keep everyone a slave. Yes.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.17 10:27:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sepherim
All those things do is keep the differences in power stable and working. Accepted. Legitimized. So, in the end, they keep everyone a slave. Yes.


You forget that canonizing power structures do not aid in stability or acceptance, but also in predictability and accountability.

If you fall victim to a form of slavery in the Federation (say you are coerced into prostitution or made dependent on drugs) you have no one to turn to. It is all 'your own fault' since no laws regulate those forms of slavery.

Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
Posted - 2009.12.17 11:24:00 - [15]
 

Slavery in our world is a sad fact. It doesn't make it better to play around with the word so long and distort it so much that it becomes meaningless.

You can exaggerate every word so much that you break it's meaning. Like "freedom", "slave" or for example "laborer". If you do, the meaing will break. But this doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the word or the idea of the word. It means that either you don't understand it or you are distorting it intentionally and use this rhetoric trick to cover the weaknesses of your own argumentation.

Your argumentation is to justify slavery. And to do this you ignore the suffering of the people that have to live as slaves. You just bend the word the way you like and voilà! Nothing to fear. We all are slaves.

Great.

We meet on the battlefield.

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2009.12.17 16:24:00 - [16]
 

I think those of us that live in high-sec Amarr space, where slavery is an old, long set institution are all on the same page with this.

Our society, like the Caldari, favors Order and Law. We realize that not everyone can be in charge, and we take steps to make sure our citizens are able to do the best job they can in life with the skills and abilities they were born with. We do this through education and the institutions of consumerism and slavery.

We likewise, denounce the lack of basic civil care that the Republic and to a lesser extent, the Federation show their citizens in the name of “freedom.”

As I’ve said, freedom should not mean the freedom to starve.

Yet both governments would have you believe slavery is wrong. Any system that is not used correctly can be viewed as wrong. But you shouldn’t use the examples of the few to condemn the practice as a whole.

If the Gallente or the Republic spent a fraction of what they spend per year on propaganda to buy bowls of soup, they could save a planet.

And as for the capsuleers who parrot their governments…how can you walk among the stars with your eyes closed?

I would be willing to wager that if people like Ms Wildfire entered an indentured servitude contract with me or another loyal Amarrian, she would see that we are right. I would even make it short-term, say a year and a day. I would publicly post her medical reports, showing that no drugs or additional cyberware were introduced to coerce her. She might gain a few pounds though. My chefs are among the best.

Would you care to try it Alicia? You are already a capsuleer; your life as it is would not change much. All I would require is a percentage of your income to assist the Mokk family-no more than you probably pay to your current corporation. I might need you to fly a mission now and then and of course cease any hostilities against the Empire and help to hunt our enemies. I would of course need obedience, but I think you’d soon see that we all work together. Where I come from, everyone works, everyone fights. And everyone is cared for.

What you would get in return is comfort. Security. A family that cared for you and people who would die for you, not because of salary, but because you are one of them. You would belong.

Interested?






Molien
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.17 16:34:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Molien on 17/12/2009 16:37:17
One thing that should be raised, since we are on the topic, is how much freedom a slave does indeed have. For the Amarrian slave, yes, they have work to perform, however, it is little different from an employee in other societies. While various owners treat their slaves differently, there are laws and scripture governing their treatment, and abuse is not tolerated. All, however, are free from worry about their next meal, or losing their job, or not being able to pay for their housing, or being accosted, or what their purpose in life is, all these things that seem to plague so-called "free" society. Some are given a stipend by their owner and allowed to pursue their own interests and hobbies, even education and other self-improvement.

After all, a craftsmen cares for his tools, and Amarrian slaves are not merely tools, but are people, souls, that owners have been entrusted with. Not only for their physical well-being, but their spiritual awakening and growth as well.

Please do not lump all "slave owners" together in one group. Those following the Lord are vastly different in their treatment than those out in the darkness who use men as toys with no compassion or thought of anything than their own sadistic pleasures or worse.

Aphoxakhan
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2009.12.17 19:19:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Lyris Nairn

Here is where my paper ends, in drawing a parallel between Amarr and Caldari. I will not presume to speak for the Matari or the Gallenteans. I suspect that, should one examine the majority rule of the Federation and the machinations of the Republic, that one would find similar models in place to ensure that the free commoner either directly or indirectly does what is best for the group under pain of punishment. If this is not the case, than my supposition is wrong; however, if I am right as I believe I am, then the door is open to analyze the question that caused me to consider this topic.


There is not much I wish say, but I will point out that if you were not a capsuleer you would have a very difficult time finding an audience of great notoriety who would be interested in this philosophical nonsense.

Whether we are free or not, anyone privileged to speak in Intergalactic Summit would be a fool to suggest they are bound by anything other than their own will.

Eolandae
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.12.17 19:59:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Molien
by: Molien on 17/12/2009 16:37:17
All, however, are free from worry about their next meal, or losing their job, or not being able to pay for their housing, or being accosted, or what their purpose in life is, all these things that seem to plague so-called "free" society.

I have to admire the discipline needed to say that with a straight face. The Amarr have truly developed cognitive dissonance into an art form. You claim that your slaves are free from freedom itself! Clearer thinkers will recognise this for the meaningless platitude that it is.
Originally by: Molien
by: Molien on 17/12/2009 16:37:17
Please do not lump all "slave owners" together in one group. Those following the Lord are vastly different in their treatment than those out in the darkness who use men as toys with no compassion or thought of anything than their own sadistic pleasures or worse.

I can and I do lump all slavers together... they all own slaves. Those using their faith to avoid personal responsibility for their actions are the worst of all.



Molien
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.17 20:26:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Molien on 17/12/2009 20:28:18
Edited by: Molien on 17/12/2009 20:26:40
Originally by: Eolandae
You claim that your slaves are free from freedom itself!

Define freedom. Do citizens of any society have freedom? Are they free to take whatever they want no mater who owns it? Are they free to kill whoever they want? Are they free to lay around all day watching holo-reels without paying for them? Are they free to eat and not pay for that which is eaten? Are they free at all? The answer, is no, they simply answer to other masters. My slaves are free from the delusion of freedom, which is in itself, a grand lie. The Amarrian system however, recognizes the slavery that all of us, from newly captured to the highest seats of the Privy council, are subject to. We have embraced it and flourish. It is those who fight the right and proper order of the universe that suffer and cry out against the "unfairness" and the things they "deserve".

The freedom that we do have, everyone, including slaves, is their will. If one is willing to suffer the consequences, one can do whatever they would like, regardless of society. However, the purpose of laws and the punishments attached to those laws is to make disobeying them undesirable. Even a slave is able to refuse to do what they are ordered by their owner, however, as in other societies armies and navies, refusing the lawful orders of those appointed above you is likely to end badly, but it is still your decision to obey or not to obey.

It is for this reason that the practice of cybernetic modification of behavioral centers and "chipping" is frowned upon. It removes that free will that each of us is granted. Likewise it is the reason that several sects have been declared heretical.

Originally by: Eolandae
I can and I do lump all slavers together... they all own slaves. Those using their faith to avoid personal responsibility for their actions are the worst of all.


Avoid personal responsibility? No, in fact we accept more responsibility. Not only are we entrusted with the well-being of the very souls of those in our charge, but we are also responsible for their actions, just as a parent is responsible for the actions of their children, or a general for the soldiers serving under her command.

Eolandae
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.12.17 22:50:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Molien
My slaves are free from the delusion of freedom, which is in itself, a grand lie.

In truth, this is the whole thrust of the topic, and why - despite protests to the contrary - this thread is propaganda designed to legitimize slavery.

We all shackle under some yoke it is true. But the point is largely irrelevant. Lets say that freedom is an illusion. Great. So what.

It is still plainly visible to anyone who looks that there is a massive power imbalance between you and the men in your "care". It goes without saying that this imbalance is in your favor. This is known as exploitation.

Given your position, one can hardly be surprised to find you justifying it, even without your enabling belief in an ancient myth-cycle. But know that such transparently self-serving drivel will earn you nothing but contempt.

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.12.17 23:06:00 - [22]
 

Has the time for the "Slavery really isn't Slavery, but Freedom is" speech come around again already?

Chell Charon
Posted - 2009.12.18 02:15:00 - [23]
 

And by the same logic we are all addicts.

Consider:

1. We consume food and drink to alleviate and avoid discomfort (Feelings of hunger and thirst)

2. Most even consume just for the positive feeling, the "High". For the taste, instead of just nourishment.

3. We need to consume these several times a day to avoid withdrawal.

4. Extreme symptoms of continued withdrawal include death.

I submit that all drugs should immidiately be released from these artificial restrictions of laws as we are allready all of us in essence addicts.

I do hope you will forgive me if I don't hold my breath while waiting the Amarr and Caldari to act on this logic.

Though I do admit that my logic is slightly flawed compared to the original argument, namely:

1. I did not quote religious literature of a faith to people not sharing my faith.

2. At no point did I feel the need to use imaginary friend as a justification for suggested behaviour.

3. I am aware of the absolute absurdity of both arguments.

At the very least your argument is academic and lacking in real life study.

Now, I think I'll go and eat some food and drink a few drinks.

PS. If mr. Mokk is so convinced of the grandness of slavery he might offer to serve me in a similar position, say for 6 months. If after that time he indeed would willingly submit under my authority untill I decide he is sufficiently enlightened in Brutor tribal culture... Well maybe his offer to ms. Wildfire could then be seen as something more than a lowbrow attempt at humour.

-

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2009.12.18 15:56:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Sinjin Mokk on 18/12/2009 16:00:37
Ah! Now here is someone with initiative!

You are correct in your progression up to a point. Addiction happens when the brain produces chemicals like serotonin in response to a given action that is good for the body. We are “addicted” to food, because the brain needs to tell the body that it is important to eat regularly. Actions like the use of drugs, alcohol, gambling or the excessive playing of computer games can provide a similar chemical release and trick the brain into thinking that the action is just as necessary for survival as eating.

Those of my Order of Cyberknights use chips to avoid addiction to detrimental actions and enjoy the development of other addictions, like seeing an enemy shop blossom into a fireball, or an enemy soldier fall before you begging for mercy, scream, bleed, etc... But I digress.

To say that eating is an addiction is a gross oversimplification. As with the subject of slavery, there are many other factors to take into consideration before you can formulate an informed opinion on the subject.

I would put it to you that our argument is not at all lacking in real-life study. Even the older histories suggest that societies that treated their slaves well prospered, while those that treated them poorly suffered until they either enacted laws to prevent cruelty to slaves or abolished the practice. The proof that you need is in the fact that the Empire is the largest, oldest and most successful political entity known to Man. And we did it with fair and just and non-abusive institutional slavery.

As for your final point, I am deeply flattered. To ask someone to be a slave for you can be seen as an expression of love and devotion, that you wish the person to be a part of your family.

I must however, decline your offer. Now I know there are several of you out there that just snorted derisively and thought bad things just now. Before you hurt yourself rushing to the comm system, allow me to explain why I must refuse his offer.

First and foremost is because I already have a master. I am already a slave. Of course I could point out that I am a slave to God, but since you have excluded religion, so shall I. I am from a large family and we are the lords of an average sized continent. My eldest brother rules but he is a servant to the Duke of the planet and so up the chain of command to our Empress. Being second born, my path is in the military and I am a slave to my commanders. This is not as figurative as it may sound. Besides, I’m sure if you asked a boot private in any military in the history of man, he will agree that he is a slave to his sergeant. As a member of the ruling class it would also be seen as inappropriate. Incidentally, my next youngest brother went into the church. It’s tradition.

Additionally, I believe your corporation serves the Republic. I am informed that even though service to you would probably be a positive learning/teaching experience for us both, our governments are at war and affairs of state take precedence over private affairs. To do otherwise would be to betray my oath of fealty and be an act of treason. So do understand my polite refusal is not made out of hand, but after careful consideration. If I broke my oath to serve you, how could you ever trust me?

Again, thank you, but no.


 

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