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Andreus LeHane
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2009.12.18 14:02:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Invelious
Wrong, CCP corrected this, missions can no longer be dropped at a whim, same rules apply as in none fw missions, drop it twice within 4 hours and see ya standing go down.


That doesn't matter, if your corporation's standing with either the militia or the faction is high enough. If you have, say, eighteen people in the corp with very high Caldari standing and eighteen one-day-old alts, your corp standing will be averaged from the people in the corp with high Caldari or STPRO standing (given promotions, likely both). You can use this corp standing to have the alts spam mission requests from STPRO until you get the required system, even if it drops your standing to abysmal levels. Have someone else complete the missions. By this time of course the alts will probably have awful Caldari standings but that doesn't matter - drop them from corp, biomass them and create new ones. If you do this between downtimes, your corp's Caldari faction standings won't even take a hit.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.12.18 14:14:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Andreus LeHane
Definition of exploit

The use and bio-massing of alts in order to avoid consequences is deemed and exploit a far as I am aware. Would probably apply here as well.

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.20 05:54:00 - [33]
 

Oh dear, almost page two .. now that won't do!

Anyone with half an ounce of decency get thee hence and support this pair of threads:

[Proposal] FIX FACTION WARFARE
[Proposal] Moratorium on VP gain

Hell, any thread related the FW could use support .. Caldari may have left Metropolis but the bugs, exploits and abuses remain.

Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
Posted - 2009.12.20 10:37:00 - [34]
 

I fully support the idea of changing plexes so that all the NPCs need to be killed for the plex to be captured. The whole plexing idea needs a radical overhaul, but we can safely say FW is not CCP's highest priority at the moment, this simple change would be the easiest to implement.

I do, however, fail to see what a moratorium on VP would achieve at this point. The issue of broken FW mechanics came to a head due to the PERVS alt swarm capping minmatar plexes (for which they weren't gaining VP anyway), likewise the bugged timer that keeps counting even when you warp out...if you aren't on grid you don't gain any VP for the capture.


Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.20 11:24:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Veshta Yoshida on 20/12/2009 11:25:03
Originally by: Machiavelli's Nemesis
I do, however, fail to see what a moratorium on VP would achieve at this point. The issue of broken FW mechanics came to a head due to the PERVS alt swarm capping minmatar plexes (for which they weren't gaining VP anyway), likewise the bugged timer that keeps counting even when you warp out...if you aren't on grid you don't gain any VP for the capture.


There are two different VPs in current system, Personal and System.
- Personal VP is gained by missions and/or plexing normally. I am pretty sure the Caldari got these VP (its the tally on the militia office page), they just did not get any standings adjustment.
- System VP is what determines contested status and is solely from closing plexes, be it from normal plexing or bugs.

A freeze on system VP and/or roll-back (ugly concept, but might be needed) would allow war to proceed as is but without systems flipping every other day due to various loop-holes, abuses and exploits being used (ie. plexes would still spawn and you could still "harvest" tags).

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.21 10:32:00 - [36]
 

Took a day off from the war to complete my epos. My vision of how FW should be .. violent, fast, FUN!

FW: My Vision (or how I learned to love mayhem)


Gourdo
Amarr
Posted - 2009.12.21 19:36:00 - [37]
 

I agree there are many issues that need to be fixed with faction warfare. There are some things that can be done that are be debating if they are exploit or not.

BUT there are things that are already deemed as a exploit by CCP and are still being used by players. Example the LOGIN exploit which has been around since the start of faction warfare is still being used. This should be a easy fix but CCP has yet to fix it. If someone is in enemy territory and logs in the navy should announce them as entering system and attack them which they currently do not and never have. I have seen this done numerous times and also have been victim of it as well. If you would like to know the name of the exploiter his name is Loren Gallen. He has been using this a alt to locate those in FW and then using the login exploit so that person is not aware that a FW target has entered system. And then he warps to person to attack them. He has no need to worry about faction navy because they do not spawn because of the exploit.

I also feel that if a person is in the militia regardless of which side they are on if they enter enemy territory they should be attacked by the faction navy regardless of there standings. I have seen numerous players roam through high sec without the navy attacking them. They are a enemy and should be attacked. They should also not be able to dock at NPC stations (belonging to their enemy) within enemy territory specifically high sec stations and those stations should attack them regardless of standings. If someone is in enemy territory and logs in the navy should announce them as entering system and attack them which they currently do not and never have.

Loren Gallen
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
Posted - 2009.12.22 00:34:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Gourdo
... If someone is in enemy territory and logs in the navy should announce them as entering system and attack them which they currently do not and never have. I have seen this done numerous times and also have been victim of it as well. If you would like to know the name of the exploiter his name is Loren Gallen. He has been using this a alt to locate those in FW and then using the login exploit so that person is not aware that a FW target has entered system. And then he warps to person to attack them. He has no need to worry about faction navy because they do not spawn because of the exploit. ...
...
If someone is in enemy territory and logs in the navy should announce them as entering system and attack them which they currently do not and never have.


No exploit there Gourdo, the navy is doing the job. A player from enemy militias gets announced in your highsec every time it jumps a gate or undocks (you must have seen the message box in the station when I undocked, check your logs)
The npc do attack me all the time, the navy spawns whereever I warp and land... the amarr navy appeared, neuted & shot me even inside your plex, when I attacked and popped your navy apoc Wink... maybe a bit of shock watching your shiney going down didn't let you see well what was going on around ?? Laughing

kahhhhhnn
Lovey dovey hug club
Posted - 2009.12.22 01:39:00 - [39]
 

I'm incapable of looking at local.

Nerf Loren!

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.12.26 14:27:00 - [40]
 

Another one for the bug collection: Often, after fighting over complexes, those complexes "bug" so that they can't be finished anymore. Timer goes to "captured", but nothing happens. They despawn randomly thereafter, without giving VP, standings, or anything.

Bug ID #90780

Damar Rocarion
Posted - 2009.12.26 19:55:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Another one for the bug collection: Often, after fighting over complexes, those complexes "bug" so that they can't be finished anymore. Bug ID #90780


Incorrect. They can be finished, they simply get random amount of "ghost time" to them. Worst delay in capturing the plex was approximately one hour when me and Bad Messenger drove certain enemy plexer from system which was close to coming vulnerable. It depends a bit on plex size how much time it gets, with minors having less time.

By my observation, it occurs about 75% of the time if both sides happen to be on the timer at the same time.

Damar Rocarion
Brigadier General



Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.12.26 20:58:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Damar Rocarion
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Another one for the bug collection: Often, after fighting over complexes, those complexes "bug" so that they can't be finished anymore. Bug ID #90780


Incorrect. They can be finished, they simply get random amount of "ghost time" to them. Worst delay in capturing the plex was approximately one hour when me and Bad Messenger drove certain enemy plexer from system which was close to coming vulnerable. It depends a bit on plex size how much time it gets, with minors having less time.


Heh. Thanks. We stopped bothering in one plex a few days ago after 30 minutes. Guess we should have stayed longer. :-D

Two plexes today bugged. Both closed a random time later - no one was even capping them. The guy who was inside got the green local text, but no standings boost - so I guess no system VP, either (but that's difficult to impossible to check).

Very strange, this.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.26 21:02:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Damar Rocarion

By my observation, it occurs about 75% of the time if both sides happen to be on the timer at the same time.

Damar Rocarion
Brigadier General





Also, presence of cloak ships can add buggy time. In most cases you indeed need some extra time to capture, as the visible timer is simply not in sync with the server timer anymore apparently. Time extra depends a bit on the timer and what happened, although in some cases even 30 minutes extra doesn't capture it.

Dyphorus
Posted - 2009.12.27 06:38:00 - [44]
 

IMO it's all very simple.... Occupancy means nothing aside from hey, your/our side controls this and you/we don't. Otherwise it really doesn't matter if the NPC defenders are balanced or not, because the whole FW system is meaningless, and the majority of FW players could care less if the system label says amarr/caldari/minmitar/galante.

You want to inject some enthusiasm into FW other than PvP on tap, as that's what it is to many players.... give us a reason to fight over systems. Combat/ratting plexs for the controlling faction a la the new sov system. NPCs or scaled down gate guns that help the defending faction. Real, worthy LP rewards for capping/defending systems. Something/anything to reward people for fighting over space. Otherwise we may as well go join RvB so we don't have to go 5/10/more jumps to maybe, or maybe not, find a fight.

While it's up in the air... fix the damned LP for kills system. Only getting LP for top damage is so ridiculous it's laughable.

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.27 10:44:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Dyphorus
You want to inject some enthusiasm into FW other than PvP on tap, as that's what it is to many players.... give us a reason to fight over systems.

Keep in mind that FW was intended as a place where people could dabble with PvP and gang/fleet warfare prior to jumping into null-sec.
Awarded points/ISK should never make it profitable as such, merely enough to cover costs .. think of the ISK "lost" by not missioning/ratting as tuition fee for the school of hard knocks.

Added the LP-for-Kill bug to list, your other points are already covered in one form or another I think in the listed material.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.12.30 18:37:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
Originally by: Dyphorus
You want to inject some enthusiasm into FW other than PvP on tap, as that's what it is to many players.... give us a reason to fight over systems.

Keep in mind that FW was intended as a place where people could dabble with PvP and gang/fleet warfare prior to jumping into null-sec.


If that is indeed the intent, then I think that is the first thing that needs to change. FW should be an alternate way to play eve, just as legit as null sec. Is Eve a sandbox, or a path to nullsec?

Sean Faust
Gallente
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
Waterboard
Posted - 2009.12.30 18:46:00 - [47]
 

There is only one thing I can think of that hasn't already been mentioned:

Standings loss due to bubble mechanics in 0.0 getting you or your corp kicked from militia.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.01.04 22:58:00 - [48]
 

A friend of mine had an idea for a "mini game" to replace the NPCs with that I actually quite like. Don't make it a single capture point, make it 4 of them. You have to cap each of them for, say, 30 seconds, and then move on to the next. Four points so you can't just set up an orbit, but have to capture them separately. 30 seconds is a bit arbitrary - any sensible number that discourages "afk alts" for plexing, and requires some kind of player focus.

Combine this with a minimum ship size to capture complexes (both for offense and for defense), and you have a very nifty little mechanic that does not discourage good 1 vs 1 fights.

Gourdo
Amarr
Posted - 2010.01.05 02:39:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Loren Gallen


No exploit there Gourdo, the navy is doing the job. A player from enemy militias gets announced in your highsec every time it jumps a gate or undocks (you must have seen the message box in the station when I undocked, check your logs)
The npc do attack me all the time, the navy spawns whereever I warp and land... the amarr navy appeared, neuted & shot me even inside your plex, when I attacked and popped your navy apoc Wink... maybe a bit of shock watching your shiney going down didn't let you see well what was going on around ?? Laughing


Incorrect Loren I have checked the logs and the first thing that it mentions anything about enemy is when you warp scrambled me. Oh I did watch for the message as well even after words while you re-logged multiple times and there was no announcement.

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.01.05 06:44:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
A friend of mine had an idea for a "mini game" to replace the NPCs with that I actually quite like...

And how would you go about explaining that a military installation can be captured with no opposition?
A system like the one you describe will still have the alt-horde fighting the war albeit with less of the afk effect.

Offensive warfare is (not counting solo-capping) and should be expensive both in material and manpower costs.
Think of any of the conflicts in Eve, attacking means expending exorbitant amounts of resources and accepting what can be atrocious losses (current Fountain war IT/PL is a good recent example).

NPCs should be moulded so they can act as an equalizer between mismatched combatants (think The Alamo) but otherwise remain non-invasive.
I had an idea way back when of using continuous hacking on bunker to make spawns in system remain passive, could create some interesting scenarios with a gang (too light and it gets nuked by defenders) on bunker essentially supporting a plexing gang.

But I'll add the NPC less mini-game option to the list either way Very Happy

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.01.05 08:12:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
Offensive warfare is (not counting solo-capping) and should be expensive both in material and manpower costs.
Think of any of the conflicts in Eve, attacking means expending exorbitant amounts of resources and accepting what can be atrocious losses (current Fountain war IT/PL is a good recent example).


Yes, but last time I checked, it wasn't NPCs who killed the (lagged out) SPLoT fleet. Give the players the tools to be meaningful adversaries, not NPCs.

All NPCs do is to cause plexers to use non-PvP fits, which means avoidance of PvP. Requiring killing of NPCs (which is a seriously gross imbalance between attacking and defending, as well as a serious kick on anyone who uses ammo :-/) means good plexers bring appropriate PvE setups, which are NOT PvP setups.

And even if you use PvP setups - I'm attacking a minor in a Rifter, a single Punisher warps in. Am I going to attack? Likely not, it's close as it is, if NPCs spawn and TD me I'm dead. So I call in a friend just to make sure. What could have been a great 1vs1 turns into a gank, because game mechanics discourage the "equal fight". That means they are bad game mechanics.

Get rid of NPCs. Give players the tools to figure out where someone is attacking, so they can interfere in a meaningful way. That would finally also get rid of the highly annoying "plexing is best done so no one notices you" - it should be something that causes fights, not something you do ideally unnoticed.

And yes, I am of the opinion that you first design a good game, and then find good IC explanations for the good game design. Otherwise, we'd have realistic physics for PvP instead of space jelly and a few other things I'd rather avoid. :-)

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.01.05 10:06:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Yes, but last time I checked, it wasn't NPCs who killed the (lagged out) SPLoT fleet. Give the players the tools to be meaningful adversaries, not NPCs.

I was thinking more of the sacrifice of 40+ dreads to take out a TCU against the clock as DT approached, the lag-turkey-shoot would be a bad example of what I was saying Laughing

NPCs are equalizers. If they were to be removed as you suggest, Caldari and Minmatar would hold all systems with very little contest, raw numbers would be the only deciding factor .. how is that better than NPCs influencing (note: not deciding) events?
Case in point: See what Minmatar have accomplished using pretty much nothing but sheer numbers, even with NPCs there is very little to actually do for Amarr pilots to stop the system losses.

I am of the belief that offensive plexing should be a team effort and not something you do solo instead of spinning ships.
Rambo was a decent enough flick but hardly accurate as far as warfare is concerned.

Code the NPCs to not engage anything outside capture range unless themselves attacked (to prevent kiting). Would open up for sniper fits to have a place and essentially remove the NPCs from any skirmishes not directly threatening the installation they are there to protect.

PS: Two Rifters against a Punisher? Hope those Rifter pilots know their stuff or they really will be ganked Smile

At any rate, it is added to list and my vision of how pvp/pve in FW could work together has already been published.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.01.05 11:04:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
NPCs are equalizers. If they were to be removed as you suggest, Caldari and Minmatar would hold all systems with very little contest, raw numbers would be the only deciding factor .. how is that better than NPCs influencing (note: not deciding) events?


I don't think that is the case. As you know, Amarr NPCs are easier to solo than Minmatar NPCs - if your argument was true, it'd already be the case that the Minmatar control everything.

I do not think that NPCs should be there to balance out raw numerical imbalances. Make systems easier/harder to occupy depending on (active, not subscribed) numbers, ideally based on the amount of systems already occupied. But don't kill the tactical awesome engagements for the illusion of a "balancing factor" that isn't there.

Hm. I just realized this thread was not for discussion, so I'll stop posting now. Sorry for the derailing.

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.01.05 13:02:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I don't think that is the case. As you know, Amarr NPCs are easier to solo than Minmatar NPCs - if your argument was true, it'd already be the case that the Minmatar control everything.

They practically did to begin with, took almost a year to claw back the systems lost at the start where Minmatar had a huge number of actives.
After the initial surge, Minmatar plexing activity waned to a point where we could keep up. That changed with influx of actives from EM resulting in what you see now ... like I said numbers > all.

The fact that the NPCs are so easy to circumvent is the reason for the speed things are moving nothing else, if they were "normalized" we might be able to keep up with the larger numbers but at present there is little point. Doing damage control is all we can really do.
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Hm. I just realized this thread was not for discussion, so I'll stop posting now. Sorry for the derailing.

As long as I can keep tabs on thread and not miss those elusive gold-nuggets, it doesn't matter Smile

KillJoy Tseng
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2010.01.05 16:22:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: KillJoy Tseng on 05/01/2010 16:22:54
Okay. I have to comment on something that bugs me. And it gets down to basic concepts of how people think FW should work. And yes I'm talking Amarr vs. Minmatar front here because that's where I've focused my attention - I'm going to try to be relatively unbiased but whichever.

It used to be that, from all accounts, Amarr had far fewer active pilots (maybe, maybe not - I've always been skeptical of that but whatever, it's immaterial to my point here) during most time, but were holding ground because of superiority at and around DT. I didn't like that - I'd prefer things not be tied to one constant time personally as a lot of people will have RL things they can't move to be active then and it's unfair to them, the players - but it was rightly pointed out that on an organizational basis, well, the Amarr groups were actively recruiting around there, motivating people to be active around then, and all the rest.

Now that the Minmatar militia has managed to shift people around to focus on the post-DT time, the situation has shifted with obvious affects. I still don't *like* it for the same reason I mentioned above, but on an organizational basis I think it's fair.

What's bothering me is the basic idea of NPCs as equalizers. Why should they be? If the Amarr were maintaining activity superiority over the Minmatar, I would full well be expecting them to be taking systems from the Minmatar. How quickly I'll leave up for debate - people have had thoughts on making it so more systems get harder to take due to VP methods or whatever - but I'd expect the hits to keep on coming until such time as the Minmatar mounted a response to reverse the activity superiority, and in the past they have at various points.

But that opinion with FW occupancy important in its own right. With FW as an introduction to PVP, the NPCs are an anathema, as has been explained repeatedly.

As Arkady said, maybe not the place for discussion, but I'm sleep deprived, so I'll use that as an excuse. ;)

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.01.05 17:15:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: KillJoy Tseng
Okay. I have to comment on something that bugs me. ...

Have you ever been in a corp where 90% where in another timezone? Boring and lonely does not begin to describe it. Amarr had more people available immediately post-DT due to that simple fact, I doubt that any specific recruiting were done to reinforce that, it is the first I hear of it if so.

At any rate, compared to the ability to completely ignore NPCs like you do (and you want them gone *Hah*), the post-dt has close to zero impact on the war as it only applies to instances where occupancy differs from sov .. the fewer the systems in question the more of an "issue" it appears as was the case in Lantorn/Sisiede.

Minmatar just took a system in 2-3 days flat .. one 28 plex streak and the loose change afterwards .. I bet the initial streak was done by 2-3 people tops as is normal these days.
We spent 7 weeks taking Lantorn having upwards of 20 people available at all times to run plexes when they spawned, we can't ignore NPCs you see so we need firepower to clear them before Minmatar comes along ..

What you and your EM buddies have done is give Minmatar the manpower to blob the crap out of the place 23/7 .. we used to have 2 hours post-dt with rest largely Minmatar dominance. Good luck getting anything remotely resembling a good fight.

NPCs are ESSENTIAL as equalizers to avoid excessive blobbage winning by default. Thank you for playing.

PS: And yes I officially hate EM more than SF. SF were a 3rd party nuisance while EM set about to break the game/war relying on obvious mechanic abuses ... happy days.

Evanda Char
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.01.05 19:01:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Evanda Char on 05/01/2010 19:17:30
Edited by: Evanda Char on 05/01/2010 19:15:57
Edited by: Evanda Char on 05/01/2010 19:14:54
Originally by: Veshta Yoshida


PS: And yes I officially hate EM more than SF. SF were a 3rd party nuisance while EM set about to break the game/war relying on obvious mechanic abuses ... happy days.


Here's a question for you, Veshta. How could we not "cheat" by your definition?

Pop on Sisi for a bit and try to fit a Minmatar frigate that can't solo a plex. Well, maybe probes... But are you seriously asking us to fit our ships badly so that you can win? Seriously, if you have a suggestion, I am all ears.

I've tried with an Amarr character on Sisi and made Punishers, Crucifiers and Executioners, so far, that can solo easily without firing a shot.

That it is harder for the Amarr against Minmatar NPCs, I do not dispute. But we are not in charge of the NPCs and we pay the same subscription you do. We are allowed to play. We spent 4 years prior to this creating an alliance that by action, earned the right to be in this war, to the point that we even passed up some wars we'd have loved to have OOCly, because it was the rule of the faction we supported. Passing up fights is a bigsacrifice for a player, but we did it because we wanted to RP loyalists right.

That there are issues in FW that need to be taken up by the design teams at CCP, I do not dispute, and I've supported a lot of calls to fix them even when they are not in my "favour." But your constant shrieking in local and insults in these forum go beyond the level of acceptable and for our newer players, who don't know the old guard of PIE, you are creating an absolutely dismal image of your corporation, which I have been proud to call enemies in game and friends out of it.

Your issues with us are ones you should be fixing in space, by fitting some webs, recruiting, coordinating with your militia and getting your old members to log back in. Just as we didn't sit there calling Damar or anyone else a "filthy abuser" in local - we made a plan, got in ships and tried to help to change things.

Edits: grammar & phraseology

KillJoy Tseng
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2010.01.05 19:05:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
PS: And yes I officially hate EM more than SF. SF were a 3rd party nuisance while EM set about to break the game/war relying on obvious mechanic abuses ... happy days.


I'm really sorry to hear that; I quite like PIE. You guys have a lot of dedicated pilots, who mostly can seperate IC and OOC stuff. I have interesting talks with some of your number OOCly on a fairly regular basis, and your pilots are almost always well led and competent. I never liked the foothold you guys managed to make in Heimatar or the rebuffing of any attempts we made to take things in your space because of taking advantage of the post-DT mechanics abuse, but I never much held it against you. I was looking forwards to see what kind of determined, coordinated response you guys would mount.

Just as a comment, if you checked any plex we took in Heimatar in the last fortnight or so, you'd see no end of Amarrian wrecks in them. We absolutely cannot ignore NPCs in the plexes and have any chance of taking them against any response whatsoever. Other people in your own corporation certainly seem to realize this. And Minmatar complexes too can be taken solo without much trouble. Other people in your own militia realize this, I've seen them doing so, and they have said so in public.



NPCs have been in the past described by CCP as something to do while capping the plexes. They *promote* blobbing and people declining engagement on both sides of the fight, as can easily be seen, especially on the Cal/Gal side. I keep getting denied potentially interesting fights because I can't cope with the NPCs and if I bring enough ships to do so the other side won't engage. Get rid of 'em; I seriously don't care if you think Minmatar NPCs give us an advantage, get rid of 'em still.

Vincent Death
Inglorious-Basterds
Posted - 2010.01.06 11:14:00 - [59]
 

Another problem with plexes is that they simply aren't consistent. In some you fight Manicas, Hoplons and Kontos's. In another of the same type you get Arcus's, Mataras, Machairias and Elite Frigates.


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