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Konarr
Posted - 2009.12.08 06:34:00 - [1]
 

In reading all of the backlash on the new NPC corp tax rate, it seems the main objection is players use NPC corps because they do not enjoy PVP and/or the prospect of war. I understand protection isn't realistically free but then again neither is it realistic to assume police would allow a gang war to ensue in the middle of the city simply because some gangs formally announced their intentions to fight. The wardec rules in Empire drive people to NPC corps in the first place and are not realistic.

Wardecs can be used as a bully tactic and the only real refuge players have from PVP is to stay in empire and belong to NPC corps.

This tax offends me much less if the wardec in empire mechanics were also adjusted to maintain the casual player balance Dominion has upset.

Julius Rigel
Sub-warp Racing Venture
Posted - 2009.12.08 07:00:00 - [2]
 

FID is that way.

SurVie
Caldari
PVP Freelancers inc.
Posted - 2009.12.08 07:15:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: SurVie on 08/12/2009 07:18:26
Originally by: Julius Rigel
FID is that way.


How about making a constructive post instead of trying to get your post count up Rolling Eyes

I'm not an empire carebear but the op makes a good point. I actually never really gave the whole empire war thing much thought tbh.

Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente
Shadow Templars
Posted - 2009.12.08 07:20:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 08/12/2009 07:21:16
Originally by: Konarr
Wardecs can be used as a bully tactic and the only real refuge players have from PVP is to stay in empire and belong to NPC corps.


Tell me, since when have war been all about fairness? If you dont want to PvP, the NPC corp is your place to stay.

Eve have for six years been all about PvP in all important and unimportant part of the game. I dont see that change in the near future. And I dont want to have it changed in the near future. This is EVE. Not World of Warcraft..




Konarr
Posted - 2009.12.08 07:59:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 08/12/2009 07:21:16
Originally by: Konarr
Wardecs can be used as a bully tactic and the only real refuge players have from PVP is to stay in empire and belong to NPC corps.


Tell me, since when have war been all about fairness? If you dont want to PvP, the NPC corp is your place to stay.

Eve have for six years been all about PvP in all important and unimportant part of the game. I dont see that change in the near future. And I dont want to have it changed in the near future. This is EVE. Not World of Warcraft..





War isn't fair but this isn't empires at war within an organized state it is corporations. In low and nullsec the wardec makes sense as their is no reasonalbe assumption of security but in hi-sec this is not the case. Police in any state would seek to stop violent outbreaks within their jurisdiction. If I could belong to a player corp and know that regardless of my corporations war status, Concord would take appropriate actions against perpatrators of violence IN EMPIRE then I would be much more likely to join a real player corp.

Unfortunately the opposite is true and when player corps go to war, you can be podded IN EMPIRE right under Concords nose on a Jita run in a non-combatant vessel. Their is a security dis-incentive to join a player corp systemically built into the game and CCP is surprised when some people follow that dis-incentive.

I am not suggesting a ban on PVP in Empire, I am however suggesting Concord treat violence in empire consistently or at least provide some kind of non-combatent designation so people that do not like PVP can tool around in Empire with the same Concord protection they would normally be provided if their corps were not at war.

Salmeria
Tovarsky Pharmaceuticals
Posted - 2009.12.08 08:24:00 - [6]
 

Lookat dem people scared of PVP LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.12.08 08:31:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 08/12/2009 08:34:09
Originally by: Konarr

War isn't fair but this isn't empires at war within an organized state it is corporations. In low and nullsec the wardec makes sense as their is no reasonalbe assumption of security but in hi-sec this is not the case. Police in any state would seek to stop violent outbreaks within their jurisdiction. If I could belong to a player corp and know that regardless of my corporations war status, Concord would take appropriate actions against perpatrators of violence IN EMPIRE then I would be much more likely to join a real player corp.

Unfortunately the opposite is true and when player corps go to war, you can be podded IN EMPIRE right under Concords nose on a Jita run in a non-combatant vessel. Their is a security dis-incentive to join a player corp systemically built into the game and CCP is surprised when some people follow that dis-incentive.

I am not suggesting a ban on PVP in Empire, I am however suggesting Concord treat violence in empire consistently or at least provide some kind of non-combatent designation so people that do not like PVP can tool around in Empire with the same Concord protection they would normally be provided if their corps were not at war.



Make concord an actual police then, that takes more time to arrive at the scene, not being magically aware of weapons fire(you would need to contact them), being destructable and avoiding them is no longer an exploit. After all, if you want to go with a more realistic approach, you need to apply it in a consistent way.

Non-combat designation isn't an option, since these are wars between corporations and you are a just target by affiliation. Declared hostilities apply to all involved. It is only realistic, that you need to cut your ties to the organisation, if you choose to be left out of their affairs. So NPC corps fulfil the same function up to a point.

I don't think CCP is surprised some people don't join player corporations. What they do want, is to give the people who aren't that concerned with wardec immunity more reasons to leave and try out playing with others. Or more likely make wardec immunity be the only reason for being in a NPC corp. You want the immunity, so you can stay in your starter corp to the end of the game. No one is forcing you to do anything else.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.12.08 08:35:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Konarr
This tax offends me much less if the wardec in empire mechanics were also adjusted to maintain the casual player balance Dominion has upset.
Upset how?

Here's a wardec reform suggestion for you:
* An active wardec disables corp membership changes for the first week.
* Wardecs can be made on a person-to-person basis, in part replacing the bounty system.
* Killrights are made tradeable.

Konarr
Posted - 2009.12.08 09:07:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 08/12/2009 08:34:09
Make concord an actual police then, that takes more time to arrive at the scene, not being magically aware of weapons fire(you would need to contact them), being destructable and avoiding them is no longer an exploit. After all, if you want to go with a more realistic approach, you need to apply it in a consistent way.

Non-combat designation isn't an option, since these are wars between corporations and you are a just target by affiliation. Declared hostilities apply to all involved. It is only realistic, that you need to cut your ties to the organisation, if you choose to be left out of their affairs. So NPC corps fulfil the same function up to a point.

I don't think CCP is surprised some people don't join player corporations. What they do want, is to give the people who aren't that concerned with wardec immunity more reasons to leave and try out playing with others. Or more likely make wardec immunity be the only reason for being in a NPC corp. You want the immunity, so you can stay in your starter corp to the end of the game. No one is forcing you to do anything else.


The tax doesn't encourage anything the intention is to discourage. Can someone please tell me why people are so adamant about having the option to bully people that don't want to fight you in hi sec space? Why do you have to do that? Does it make you feel big and important to pick on someone that doesn't like to fight?

You all act like it is wrong to want to avoid conflict with other people. I have no problem with PVP when both sides want fight each other but the wardec system doesn't care about consent does it. It is a tool for people leverage against you when you do NOT agree to fight with them. And it gives them the ability to do so without any repercussion from the authorities.

If you want to be a thug, have at it but take that crap out to low sec where it belongs or at least pay the piper for your bully attitude and accept what concord dishes out as your punishment for picking on people that don't want to fight but don't hide behind wardecs to make other peolpe play their game your way!!

Shade Millith
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.12.08 09:39:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Shade Millith on 08/12/2009 09:40:37
Edited by: Shade Millith on 08/12/2009 09:40:09
You pay 11% corp tax for immunity to Wardecs in a PVP centric game. Get over it

Isareal Altara
Posted - 2009.12.08 12:21:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Shade Millith
Edited by: Shade Millith on 08/12/2009 09:40:37
Edited by: Shade Millith on 08/12/2009 09:40:09
You pay 11% corp tax for immunity to Wardecs in a PVP centric game. Get over it


Nope, I can pay less than the wardec cost and get immunity to Wardecs, that adds up to a total cost of `12mil setting up personal corps to hop in and out of.

I can make that back in a short time... ya wardec corp A, hop into corp B... etc.

With an alt in to hold the corp, means you take 24hrs to drop the wardec to dec the next once you hit the limit.

Now multiply that by the number of folks that are going to be formed by those that don't want to pay the tax.

The tax is just a minor insult.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.08 12:24:00 - [12]
 

Yes the war dec system should be reformed.

But it should be harder to avoid wars, not easier as the OP suggests.

Isareal Altara
Posted - 2009.12.08 12:34:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Yes the war dec system should be reformed.

But it should be harder to avoid wars, not easier as the OP suggests.


Well if you check, CCP isn't happy at the wardecs being a pay to grief system and stated such...


Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.12.08 12:39:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Spurty on 08/12/2009 12:40:39
Originally by: Tippia


Here's a wardec reform suggestion for you:
* An active wardec disables corp membership changes for the first week.
* Wardecs can be made on a person-to-person basis, in part replacing the bounty system.
* Killrights are made tradeable.


this guy has a working brain, please do at least two of these CCP

exception on the membership changes though. CEO should be able to boot spies

Herpes Sweatrash
Posted - 2009.12.08 12:49:00 - [15]
 

Is it true Triumtittae is open recruitment to fight NC? because I have a hard on for NC to eat my space meat RazzRazzRazz

S'Way
Posted - 2009.12.08 12:53:00 - [16]
 

First off - Concord doesn't provide protection (as the OP said) - they provide consequences.
EvE is a PvP game, you consent to pvp whenever you log in...even if you don't undock there's market pvp. (selling your mission loot is market pvp).

People often assume being in an NPC corp means they can't get shot - but the fact is anyone who undocks can be shot down if someone has enough of a reason and makes the effort to do so.

Having said that - the idea that as soon as you join a player corp you get decced is a myth...I know a lot of people who've been in one man corps for years and never been war-decced. Simply by not living in crowded space, not smacking in local (or flying haulers worth hundreds of millions afk) and not having fail-fit pos's people tend to leave them alone.

If you want a 100% guarantee of no war-decs then the option is there...the guarantee NPC corps offer, price is 11% tax and no personal POS's for research/invention.
Or simply play smart and avoid giving people a reason to dec you / hire someone to shoot people for you until the dec gets retracted / corp hop whenever decced.

In fact the war-dec mechanics have already been changed (privateer nerf) to provide pve'ers with a safer environment. That and the alt corps people hop around these days to avoid wars + cost the deccing corp isk really mean you've got to upset someone or fly full haulers afk to get shot in empire these days.

Realistically you can't have player corp immunity from wars in high-sec (which seems to be what the OP is asking for) with the benefits of player corps as they currently are (pos's in high-sec etc) or the economy would eventually collapse. (no risk researching of bp's/invention would flood the market).

Neci Maren
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2009.12.08 12:58:00 - [17]
 

Stop being a victim.

Gun Gal
Posted - 2009.12.08 12:59:00 - [18]
 

or , how bout this......


SUCK IT UP BABY

seriously, this has been in the3 works for the better part of a year, and we have all heard the whines, the moans, the ideas.

npc corps get taxed.

DEAL WITH IT OR GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:03:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Isareal Altara
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Yes the war dec system should be reformed.

But it should be harder to avoid wars, not easier as the OP suggests.


Well if you check, CCP isn't happy at the wardecs being a pay to grief system and stated such...




This is eve. Either you cry and quit, or you get up and fight. Wardecs teach newbies this, and they taught me that.

SketS47
Minmatar
Alpha Intellectual Military Solutions
Alpha Intergalactic Mythogenesis
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:07:00 - [20]
 

awe boohoo ^^ did little kitty get wtfpwnd while mining at warin empire?

yaarrr for empire wars, pirates life forever!

Isareal Altara
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:09:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: TimMc
Originally by: Isareal Altara
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Yes the war dec system should be reformed.

But it should be harder to avoid wars, not easier as the OP suggests.


Well if you check, CCP isn't happy at the wardecs being a pay to grief system and stated such...




This is eve. Either you cry and quit, or you get up and fight. Wardecs teach newbies this, and they taught me that.


Adapt or die is the motto

And the adapt is the surge of 1 man corps with an alt as CEO in them... that can be insta left as long as they don't assign roles to themselves to avoid any and all wardecs at will.

Or simply close the corp and form another, but that doesn't make it so the aggressor has to wait 24hrs to drop the wardec on the original corporation.

So those are what you and the rest got to deal with now, especially with the taxes.

Your tax only makes it so others will form the 1-2man corps en mass, it doesn't do anything really but annoy people

Forranz
Malice.
Tentative Nature
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:10:00 - [22]
 

I think they should actually build upon the NPC tax. Make it relational to how long you have been in the NPC corp. Have the timer start from when it was implemented maybe?

1-3 months: 11%
3-6 months: 25%
6-9 months: 66%
9-12 months: 75% - cap at 75

This way, it gives people a reasonable amount of time to find a player corp. Who does this not affect? Traders, miners, spies, etc.


Opportunity Costs
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:11:00 - [23]
 

The 2mil a week fee is a joke

IMHO it should be like 2mil per week per member, that means if you want to wardec a 40 players corporation, would cost 80millions.

And for alliances, 5mil per week per member.

Want easy war targets over high sec? PAY FOR THEM.

Eelis Kiy
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:15:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Shade Millith
Edited by: Shade Millith on 08/12/2009 09:40:37
Edited by: Shade Millith on 08/12/2009 09:40:09
You pay 11% corp tax for immunity to Wardecs in a PVP centric game. Get over it



^^

Learol
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:16:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Learol on 08/12/2009 13:16:39
Originally by: Opportunity Costs
The 2mil a week fee is a joke

IMHO it should be like 2mil per week per member, that means if you want to wardec a 40 players corporation, would cost 80millions.

And for alliances, 5mil per week per member.

Want easy war targets over high sec? PAY FOR THEM.


I would rather have that idea reversed, the less members you have in your own corp the cheaper it is to wardec someone else’s, so a 5 player pvp corp can wardec and alliance for almost nothing, but a 100 player pvp corp intent on griefing a 10 player corp of newbies would need to pay a fortune…

*spelling

Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:21:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Opportunity Costs
The 2mil a week fee is a joke

The 11% tax on only a small fraction of a persons income while in an NPC corp is a joke. Get over it, join a player corp, or find another game to play. You "I don't like PvP" people have it so much easier now then two, or even three, years ago. What do you want? You want a CCP GM to hold your hands while you play patty cake in High Sec? After what CCP has done to my "game play" over the years I hope they jack that NPC tax rate up to 50% on your asses.

Opportunity Costs
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:26:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Originally by: Opportunity Costs
The 2mil a week fee is a joke

The 11% tax on only a small fraction of a persons income while in an NPC corp is a joke. Get over it, join a player corp, or find another game to play. You "I don't like PvP" people have it so much easier now then two, or even three, years ago. What do you want? You want a CCP GM to hold your hands while you play patty cake in High Sec? After what CCP has done to my "game play" over the years I hope they jack that NPC tax rate up to 50% on your asses.


I would be happy that NPC corp taxes would get boosted to:

- 30% mission rewards and bounty prizes
- 5% base transactions tax (market)
- 3% base broker's fee

but only if CCP boosts wardec fees aswell Cool

Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2009.12.08 16:14:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Konarr
This tax offends me much less if the wardec in empire mechanics were also adjusted to maintain the casual player balance Dominion has upset.

The way people ***** and moan about war decs one would think that it was still late 2006/early 2007 and the "P" Alliance was still going whole hog through High Sec. What offends me is all the "I'm upset cause the bad men are making me pay an 11% tax" postings.

You don't like it? Show CCP by taking your money and going elsewhere. Money talks, complaining on the forums only gets you so far. And to tell the truth it really looks like not many people give a rats ass about some Space Ship Commando having to pay an 11% tax to be immune from war decs.

You want to jack the cost of war decs up? Go for it. But I bet CCP will then make NPC corps war deccable or kick your sorry asses out after a few weeks and to never ever return to a non-wardeccable corp. You all wanted balance right?

All because of an 11% tax.

Jamyl TashMurkon
Amarr
Posted - 2009.12.08 16:18:00 - [29]
 

HTFU

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.12.08 16:18:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Spurty
Originally by: Tippia
Here's a wardec reform suggestion for you:
* An active wardec disables corp membership changes for the first week.
* Wardecs can be made on a person-to-person basis, in part replacing the bounty system.
* Killrights are made tradeable.
this guy has a working brain, please do at least two of these CCP

exception on the membership changes though. CEO should be able to boot spies
Weeeell… I like the idea that it locks up both parties in a way – if you're the aggressor and find yourself in over your head, the same rule would mean you can't quickly mass-recruit a bunch of additional cannon fodder. But sure, a CEO decision maybe, branding the guy as a spy in his corp history so people won't ask for it all that willingly just to get out of there…


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