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Gun Gal
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:05:00 - [91]
 

the problem is not with the game, but with you, dear pacafistic, riskless cretins.

none of you whining lke to take chances, face hard odds, and if you say you do, you lie.

you want WoW in space.

and you wont get it. Use your head, read all the info you can on what you want to do, and do it.

and in the end youll be suprised that you were able to.

Idami Raptor
Gallente
E.A.D Alliance
Omega Vector
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:16:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Gun Gal
the problem is not with the game, but with you, dear pacafistic, riskless cretins.

none of you whining lke to take chances, face hard odds, and if you say you do, you lie.

you want WoW in space.

and you wont get it. Use your head, read all the info you can on what you want to do, and do it.

and in the end youll be suprised that you were able to.



What they 'want to do' is make a lot of money without the risk of getting PvP'd. The majority of the gaming population are and will always be carebears that would prefer not to fight someone, because they are 100% certain they will lose.

You can't convince them otherwise, you can't force them to try PvP, you can't force them to like it either. All you'll do is make them quit if they feel they can't play the way they want to, and that, frankly would be the end of eve.

They want minimum-risk reward, preferably no risk at all. If you try to offer them anything else, they will go play WoW. or STO. or whatever.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:23:00 - [93]
 

Show me the cookie sweet enough and I'm all over it. If it's sweeter than my current one that is. I mean if the cookie is that damn sweet one would not even care that lot if one end of it is dipped in mustard.

So far my very limited experience does not indicate that the cookie yar is sweet enough to lure my funding characters out there. Ya know, stuff like the crappier end L4 missions . ie ~30 cruisers / HAC + 4 BS ie approx 6-7 mil in bounties. Without the LP, that is approx half of my L4 rewards. But it's not L5 system of yet. So it's best to reserve the judgement until at least few weeks after the anomalies have been made despawns and respawn as they are supposed and get large enough dataset to figure out if propability of faction drop is high enough to compensate for the lack of LP from shooting the same guys I would in my missions. I also bet that I have not seen all of them anomalies of yet. There might be some in the mix that can pump the average up.

From the pure isk/h perspective it's not a rocket science. [isk/h - propability of loss * cost of loss - transport and supplies costs in 0.0] vs. [isk/h - propability of loss * cost of loss - transport and supply cost in hi sec]. As rough rule of thumb I would say that if isk/h in 0.0 would be approx 20 to 25% higher than farming L4 in Marauder in hi sec it would be attractive enough for those who do care about funding their fun in efficent way - ie it would sort of cover the transport costs (capital fuel, cyno alts, etc). Still not enough ofc to really lure the true carebears out there. Bor for those there is nothign wrong actually living in empire and not leaving it if that is what floats their boat.

Spacemanc
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:25:00 - [94]
 

I've only been playing for a few months - why would I want to risk my currently small pile of ISK, and my precious implants by going to 0.0?

Not everyone has been playing for 5 years with 50 mil SP, and 100 bil ISK. Once Ive built up my skills and ISK a little bit I'll happily venture into 0.0 and low-sec, but who are you to tell me when that should be? afaik EvE is promoted as being a sandbox - ie you do what YOU want.

I did a single low sec lvl3 mission in Egghelende - I was scanned down within 60 secs, and dead within 2 mins - of course I'll be rushing back to do that again. Rolling Eyes



I hear that traders can make ISK with zero risk - why dont we force them out of stations, and make them sit in 0.0 space? If you know that hi-sec lvl4 missions pay the most isk/risk then I suggest you do them. I'm sure that you did already at some point in your EvE career, but now you've moved on, you expect the whole player base to do the same.

Originally by: Schayol Sunkeeper

CCP should just make having visitors or something give big alliances a benefit, for letting them live in their space, and the problem would simply solve itself


That could work - maybe if the alliances earn't some kind of tax in their space, so it paid for them to keep it safe and welcoming to visitors. Currently their aim is to keep everyone out, and many of them are veteran players - so as a new player what do you think I'm going to do?

Boink'urr
Minmatar
Wasserette De Tarthorst
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:25:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Aaron
Edited by: Aaron on 08/12/2009 06:03:40
Bottom line is, if you havent been to 0.0 and lived there your seriously missing out. It will change how you perceive the game forever. 0.0 is an amazing place if you know how to work it. It seriously is an adventure where you're the star.

Look me up, i started a thread a few months ago about a venture to 0.0,


Rofl, Aaron. Sorry man. Your thread is a pathetic. I wouldn't want to play your 'version' of the game even if they paid me for it. Shocked
Man it's like 'Eastenders in space'.

Necronomica Aruchiku
Caldari
The Real OC
Saints Amongst Sinners
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:29:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Svetdana
Wait till peeps get some skills up. lvl 4 mission isk is there to help people get the ball rolling. Then you can get some somewhat fair pvp fight's in when they finally "move on". (in the moving on phase myself)
Oh wait... you don't want fair. Gotcha, go back to dumping cargo cans outside of schools.
If you truley want more "noobs" in 0o space why don't you take a few under your wing, will get them there faster. Oh wait.. again, you dont want to help them, just want the easy kills on lolfit T1 ships.



couldn't have said it better myself

Opportunity Costs
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:35:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Opportunity Costs on 08/12/2009 13:37:03
One of the biggest problems that is never mentioned, is INFORMATION, or better said LACK OF said information.

The average Joe logs in and casuals play what he knows about EVE. And this is basically mining and missions. Because the tutorials are focused on PVE carebearish careers.

And just a little fraction of playerbase knows what 0.0 is. Most of them fly to 0.0 in a rookie ship and got poped in first bubble, then won't come back EVER.

As everybody knows this game is very noob unfriendly, and the lack of information doesn't help.

It would be awesome if tutorials teach basics of PVP, or there would PVP missions like how to warpscramb and kill efficiently another player. Like 1vs1 missions in which the NPC rat could warp out when in danger (emulating a player behavior).

Ansala
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:58:00 - [98]
 

I sometimes wonder if CCP real wants to make null sec competitive with high sec for isk generation.

As several in this thread have pointed out, many null sec players maintain alt (accounts) in high sec for isk-making. If null sec was able to support them, how many of these accounts would be canceled?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.12.08 13:59:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Spacemanc
I've only been playing for a few months - why would I want to risk my currently small pile of ISK, and my precious implants by going to 0.0?



Why wouldn't you? I did just that when I started playing. Started Sept 06, was in 0.0 by the end of Nov 06.

I could maybe have made more ISK by staying in hi-sec and grinding missions but I dont play games just for the purpose of making e-money. And actually I made plenty plenty ISK relative to my character age. There are Lots of opportunities in 0.0 for even very new players if you keep your eyes open and are prepared to risk a cheap ship.

Oh yeah And I've been wearing +4s since whenever it was the LP stores were introduced. Mar 07? Around then, anyway. And +3s before that. Not losing your pod is easier than people make out.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:06:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Ansala
I sometimes wonder if CCP real wants to make null sec competitive with high sec for isk generation.

As several in this thread have pointed out, many null sec players maintain alt (accounts) in high sec for isk-making. If null sec was able to support them, how many of these accounts would be canceled?


Not that many. An ISK making alt is an ISK making alt, whether it's kept in high-sec or 0.0

Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:07:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Vadimik on 08/12/2009 14:15:28

Originally by: Durzel
If everything else remained the same (i.e. cost of modules, etc) and L4s were just moved to lowsec or the payouts nerfed very few if any people currently running them in Motsu et al would go there. Most likely they'd just quit instead, in droves.


Let me put it straight, you say that:
There are players who play just to earn isk running missions in Motsu and who have nothing better in eve to do to the point of quiting should level 4's profitability be nerfed?
And they want that isk... exaclty why, to buy next tier of pimp onto their CNR's to run missions in motsu even faster?

Well, ok, let's assume those players actually exist. Level 4's are nerfed and they quit.
Now, the question: who cares? Their leaving will only serve to reduce server loads and (maybe) lower faction and officer prices, because they never interacted with other players (except, maybe, ninja salvagers) anyways.

Jade Blackwind
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:07:00 - [102]
 

Want more juicy carebears in 0.0 to shoot at, eh? Well, remove the whole bubble mechanic, problem solved. I'd personally move to 0.0 in an instant Razz

Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:19:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Vadimik on 08/12/2009 14:19:28
Originally by: Jade Blackwind
Want more juicy carebears in 0.0 to shoot at, eh? Well, remove the whole bubble mechanic, problem solved. I'd personally move to 0.0 in an instant Razz

Good news for you from dominion patch notes:
Tech III ships equipped with an Interdiction Nullifier subsystem will no longer be stopped from warping by warp disrupt probes or warp disruption field generators.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:20:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Jade Blackwind
Want more juicy carebears in 0.0 to shoot at, eh? Well, remove the whole bubble mechanic, problem solved. I'd personally move to 0.0 in an instant Razz


I guess you dont realise that bubbles are the biggest reason why mining & ratting are practical in 0.0 and are not practical in lo-sec.

When you're in an alliance that owns space, you'll thank god daily for bubbles.

Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:20:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Daemonspirit on 08/12/2009 14:27:44
Edited by: Daemonspirit on 08/12/2009 14:24:31
Originally by: Alt0101
If the aim of CCP with Dominion is to make 0.0 spece more attractive for the average player, they'll fail unless they not nerf the L4s Mission rewards.

The relation risk/isk per hour is ridiculous.

Originally by: mechtech
The introduction of cheap T2 and rigs made Lvl 4's a total joke. The isk per hour should be reduced, and they should be made more difficult. Just about every isk making activity pales to a well oiled high sec Lvl 4 mission runner.

Originally by: Suboran
move lvl 4's to low sec and problem solved

Originally by: Marko Riva
ITT people defending their source of income without being logical about it, and (possibly)not realising that it's their source of income for a REASON. Lvl 4's pay too much compared to other stuff which takes the same amount of effort and risk. It's out of whack.



What you guys are failing to realize is that CCP could take lvl 4's out of the game entirely. Wouldn't move more people to 0.0, because of the requirements of living in 0.0, the attitudes of the people living in 0.0, and the lack of interest of those in empire to support 0.0 power blocks.

Let me put it another way:

More people aren't moving to 0.0.Rolling Eyes
Originally by: Marko Riva
Edited by: Marko Riva on 08/12/2009 02:39:02
I'm sorry, I had this odd idea that this was a pvp game and moreso an MMO, so where I got the audacity to think that it should be about pvp and interaction I don't know. Being able to play solo in an MMO and evade pvp in a pvp game and actually being rewarded for this playstyle in regards of isk/effort clearly is the right way to go.


News flash!

Eve used to be a PVP game. Back in 2004, there was no hi-sec, there was no lvl 4's, there was no system security status, player sec status or concord.

Of course, there were only 30K subs and 10K concurrent users... Can't find (and can't be arsed to find) the dev-blog that stated that Eve became financially viable @ 50% subs., so they had to change it.

Which brings us to today. PVP is avoidable, there are far more things to do than pvp, and people who pay the same as anyone else, are playing the game they wish to play.

You are more than welcome to go back to 2004, however you'll be dropping about 270,000 accounts...


Originally by: Gun Gal
the problem is not with the game, but with you, dear pacafistic, riskless cretins.

none of you whining lke to take chances, face hard odds, and if you say you do, you lie.

you want WoW in space.

and you wont get it. Use your head, read all the info you can on what you want to do, and do it.

and in the end youll be suprised that you were able to.

That would be "pacifistic", "risk-less", "like", "you'll" and "surprised".

And you may be surprised to find that they are doing exactly as they want to now... Rolling Eyes

Fumitsugu
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:29:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Vadimik


Well, ok, let's assume those players actually exist. Level 4's are nerfed and they quit.
Now, the question: who cares? Their leaving will only serve to reduce server loads and (maybe) lower faction and officer prices, because they never interacted with other players (except, maybe, ninja salvagers) anyways.


CCP cares, you moron.

Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:35:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Fumitsugu
Originally by: Vadimik


Well, ok, let's assume those players actually exist. Level 4's are nerfed and they quit.
Now, the question: who cares? Their leaving will only serve to reduce server loads and (maybe) lower faction and officer prices, because they never interacted with other players (except, maybe, ninja salvagers) anyways.


CCP cares, you moron.

Thankfully, CCP cares about game being interesting and challeging first, and only then about subscription numbers.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:46:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Vadimik

Thankfully, CCP cares about game being interesting and challeging first, and only then about subscription numbers.


Oh, do you think so?

'POWER OF 2 IS BACK, LOOK AT ALL THESE BENEFITS OF HAVING AN ALT ACCOUNT' seems to say otherwise.

TheGunslinger42
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:46:00 - [109]
 

lmao more whining about level 4s

Maybe it's not level 4's that are "paying too much", maybe it's that lowsec/0.0 is still in such a state that the rewards don't match the risk. Lowsec/0.0 is the problem not level 4's

Psiri
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:48:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Psiri on 08/12/2009 14:50:15
There really is no reason whatsoever for an empire missionrunner to head out to 0.0.

Whatever little extra profit there is to be had won't make up for added risk and poor market in 0.0.

Now, FW missions however are well worth doing, in fact quite too much so.

FW needs to be reworked, empire lvl IV missions need to be nerfed, lowsec needs to be made more profitable (a place for those who wish to stay out of alliances' way) and titan DD's need to stay the hell out of lowsec.

Fumitsugu
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:51:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Fumitsugu on 08/12/2009 14:51:50
Originally by: Vadimik
Originally by: Fumitsugu
Originally by: Vadimik


Well, ok, let's assume those players actually exist. Level 4's are nerfed and they quit.
Now, the question: who cares? Their leaving will only serve to reduce server loads and (maybe) lower faction and officer prices, because they never interacted with other players (except, maybe, ninja salvagers) anyways.


CCP cares, you moron.

Thankfully, CCP cares about game being interesting and challeging first, and only then about subscription numbers.


You are wrong. CCP cares very much about subscription numbers. For (what should be) obvious reasons.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.12.08 14:54:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Psiri
Edited by: Psiri on 08/12/2009 14:50:15
There really is no reason whatsoever for an empire missionrunner to head out to 0.0.

Whatever little extra profit there is to be had won't make up for added risk and poor market in 0.0.



"Poor market" is a short phrase that means "OH GOD YOU CAN MAKE MORE ISK HERE THAN YOU'VE EVER SEEN BEFORE IN YOUR LIFE"

I dream of once again living in a part of 0.0 that has a "poor market". The last time I did, I made so much ISK that I was able to do nothing but PvP for 6-7 months.

Bloody Jump Freighters ruined all that Mad

Spacemanc
Posted - 2009.12.08 15:00:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Psiri
Edited by: Psiri on 08/12/2009 14:50:15
FW needs to be reworked, empire lvl IV missions need to be nerfed, lowsec needs to be made more profitable (a place for those who wish to stay out of alliances' way) and titan DD's need to stay the hell out of lowsec.


Thats easy to say, but they could make low-sec missions pay 100 billion and it wouldn't make any difference. Right now, log into the game and run any lvl 4 mission in low-sec space - see what happens Wink

Good luck YARRRR!!

fuze
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2009.12.08 15:04:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Fumitsugu
You are wrong. CCP cares very much about subscription numbers. For (what should be) obvious reasons.


Fixored

Junko Togawa
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.08 15:16:00 - [115]
 

Old troll is old. 2/10

Still, must confirm that butthurt gankbear tears are extra-juicy and sweet. Wonewy widdle piwates wanting hordes of carebears streaming out of Empire to give them fapkills every two seconds plz cry moar. OSHI A TITA--!!! Twisted Evil

Aurorae Andromedae
Posted - 2009.12.08 15:42:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Alt0101
If the aim of CCP with Dominion is to make 0.0 spece more attractive for the average player, they'll fail unless they not nerf the L4s Mission rewards.

The relation risk/isk per hour is ridiculous.






Typical mission runner earns about 10-20 M ISK in Empire while doing lvl4 missions. Typical mission runner is flying solo, without alts.

Those guys who are using pimped marauders or faction battleships, usually have one or two alts helping them, wich allows them to get sometimes even nearly 50 M ISK per hour.

But the problem in these is that it's not continuous! Sometimes you get handed nice missions, then you get poor ones in a row, and you need to take standings hits.

Now, typical ratting in 0.0 gives you the same 10-20 M ISK, but you have chance for getting on faction spawns. I got nearly 800 M ISK in three days, just from faction mods.

Also, now with the CCP's new sov system, you can get anomalies spawning into your system with continous rate! And that's the thing where it gets interesting.

You now can have ratters and miners in the same cyno jammed system, you get ABC ores all the time throught out the day. You get combat anomalies same way, and you still have the normal belts.


Ozone71
Caldari
Taishi Combine
Posted - 2009.12.08 15:52:00 - [117]
 

Before you wonder about moving people to 0.0, ask yourself why people play Eve?

Eve is not a first person shooter.. so .. is PvP really the goal of the game?

Sure PvP (1 on 1 or fleet battles) are part of the game, and fun for some, but not everyone. Some people simply like to play stock broker and trade on the market all day, others like to mine, invent and build.

You can ask .. why amass all that isk? to what end? to which I would ask you ... why do you want killboard stats? Does a powerful game ship make you feel powerful? What is important to one person need not have any relevance to another.

We all have our own goals. For some, its isk, for others, Killboard stats, and for some .. what is the biggest manufacturing job you've done? what is your fastest time to complete "Level 4 Mission XYZ"?

Surprisingly, it may not be about ISK or PVP at all for many Eve players.

You can't force people into Low and Null sec, as those areas just don't let them play the game they want to play. Force them down there.. and they may just leave.

D3F4ULT
Gallente
Pegasus Mining Korp
Posted - 2009.12.08 16:02:00 - [118]
 

I don't want to go to 0.0 because I don't want to be the one who whines.

Karadan Kaarwen
Posted - 2009.12.08 16:12:00 - [119]
 

What the OP seems to forget is that lvl 4 missions are ****ING BORING!!! Once you hop into a marauder, almost all lvl 4 missions can be spanked in 20 mins or under, rinse and repeat.

At least 0.0 space is fun.

Stop freaking whining and play the damn game as you wish.

Irida Mershkov
Gallente
The Reformed
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.08 16:18:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Aqriue
Originally by: Marko Riva
Edited by: Marko Riva on 08/12/2009 02:39:02
I'm sorry, I had this odd idea that this was a pvp game and moreso an MMO, so where I got the audacity to think that it should be about pvp and interaction I don't know. Being able to play solo in an MMO and evade pvp in a pvp game and actually being rewarded for this playstyle in regards of isk/effort clearly is the right way to go.

I want to /wrist myself with a spork

Grow up, you're not twelve.


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