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General Meridus
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.30 10:13:00 - [1]
 

Well its been put back to 20% per level. I frankly don't get it. Ship has been out for years. Its not like there's been some great player outcry for being too uber. It was a unique ship in what is increasingly becoming a cookie cutter game. 20% per level equates to not enough to be of use in that class.

Nag is out.
Phoenix is waaay out.
Revelation ftw.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.30 21:31:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: General Meridus
Well its been put back to 20% per level. I frankly don't get it. Ship has been out for years. Its not like there's been some great player outcry for being too uber. It was a unique ship in what is increasingly becoming a cookie cutter game. 20% per level equates to not enough to be of use in that class.

Nag is out.
Phoenix is waaay out.
Revelation ftw.
Currently the Moros, on Tranquility, has a drone bonus of 50% per Gallente Dreadnaught skill level. Last I heard they were going to make that bonus, in the Dominion release, applicable only when the ship was in siege mode.

Please clarify your reference to 20% and "back to".

Regards,
Windjammer

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.30 21:41:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/11/2009 21:41:56
On sisi.
Quote:
Gallente Dreadnought Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Capital Hybrid Turret damage and 20% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per skill level


BRB, TRAINING AMARR BS5

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.30 21:51:00 - [4]
 

Training gal bs 5 and capital energy turrets sounds like lasers on a moros might work well

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2009.11.30 22:00:00 - [5]
 

Be really nice if this tiny little change that totally destroys the ship for certain uses was mentioned in the patch notes...

Vrenth
Gallente
The Program
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.30 22:08:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Be really nice if this tiny little change that totally destroys the ship for certain uses was mentioned in the patch notes...


Didn't you know? CCP's secret to success is building their empire on lies and deceit. That is obviously why they have over 50,000 concurrent users online.

Or perhaps it's the reason they don't have 500,000 concurrent users online, you decide.

But seriously, if CCP doesn't stop "fixing" things by making everything suck as bad as the worst ship in it's class, I'm leaving... and no, nobody can has my stuff. You fix things by making everything balanced. You can achieve balance and player happiness by making ALL of the ships in it's class on par with the best. Shocked

General Meridus
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.30 22:56:00 - [7]
 

Well I guess there is some logic, if you design by spreadsheets and graphs. First some assumptions: Dreads can only use is to shoot fixed hubs from a static range period. No small group stuff, no dread vs dread, no pos shooty.

Ok. We'll make the Revelation the base by way of dps. That means the Moros with 50% drone bonus is overpowered. Nerf it. The Phoenix balances with target painters and static range. (Remember?) Now the Nag. We know it requires double skill set. So it will be the most uber by fitting 4 hardpoints plus a siege module. There everyone happy?

So I don't know why everyone is upset. It all works, doesn't it?

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.01 00:16:00 - [8]
 

Some logic is MIA, u sitll have low sec poses, 00 npc poses and 00 poses. plus wormhole pos takedowns. So really dreads are still needed. Sure they will shoot hubs in a static range period but small group stuff will still happen

I think stuff in line with the revelation as a base is static. The upsetness from the player base is that it doenst work as well as it used to

achoura
Posted - 2009.12.01 12:50:00 - [9]
 

Wasn't there a big fuss about this in the capitals thread afew weeks back, which resulted in this change being removed? Sneaking it in afew days before the patch won't change how people feel, nor will it change how badly the ship "most capable of defending it's self" is incapable of defending it's self.

It's doing less dps on sub caps than my ishtar :S

Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.01 13:00:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Vadimik on 01/12/2009 13:43:04

Ok now, what the hell?
Are you telling me that they are nerfing moros anyways, even though they reverted the changes on SiSi after negative feedback?

Even though nothing is mentioned in patch notes, even though this very question has been asked three times in patch notes discussion thread and no info on the change was given?

Because if they do, it's beyond lame, it's SOE-style in it's finest.

Just to clarify: I do hope nothing is mentioned because nothing is changed on TQ, and SiSi changes are just that - SiSi changes.

Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.01 13:17:00 - [11]
 

Im pretty sure that railguns were getting a buff to compensate.

Mundem Pashdale
Sacred Templars
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.01 13:21:00 - [12]
 

How lame.

Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.01 13:22:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Ap0ll0n
Im pretty sure that railguns were getting a buff to compensate.

You are being sarcastic, right?

I SoStoned
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.01 13:27:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: General Meridus
Well its been put back to 20% per level. I frankly don't get it. Ship has been out for years. Its not like there's been some great player outcry for being too uber. It was a unique ship in what is increasingly becoming a cookie cutter game. 20% per level equates to not enough to be of use in that class.

Nag is out.
Phoenix is waaay out.
Revelation ftw.
Currently the Moros, on Tranquility, has a drone bonus of 50% per Gallente Dreadnaught skill level. Last I heard they were going to make that bonus, in the Dominion release, applicable only when the ship was in siege mode.

Please clarify your reference to 20% and "back to".



Actually, Moros enjoyed a massive bonus to drone damage... siege level damage without being in siege mode (500% to drone damage). Of course, this being eve, enterprising and annoying twits have been station camping with them ever since. Complete immunity to gate guns, complete immunity to return attacks due to the broken docking mechanic, and no worries about loosing extremely cheap drones (compared to a carrier loosing its fighters).

THIS is why they've changed the drone damage bonus to be effective in siege mode only.

Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.01 13:41:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: I SoStoned

Actually, Moros enjoyed a massive bonus to drone damage... siege level damage without being in siege mode (500% to drone damage). Of course, this being eve, enterprising and annoying twits have been station camping with them ever since. Complete immunity to gate guns, complete immunity to return attacks due to the broken docking mechanic, and no worries about loosing extremely cheap drones (compared to a carrier loosing its fighters).

THIS is why they've changed the drone damage bonus to be effective in siege mode only.

And so they nerf drone damage to 20% instead, and don't even mention it in patch notes?
Where's the logic in that?

Aeon Storm
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.12.01 15:22:00 - [16]
 

Its 20% bonus in siege and out of siege. That is what is on sisi. You are referring to is what the devs talked about some weeks ago. That is not what they did. Surprised?

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2009.12.01 19:12:00 - [17]
 

I think they went with 20% all the time since a domi could almost kick out the DPS of a Moros when it wasn't in siege mode.

mkmin
Posted - 2009.12.01 20:36:00 - [18]
 

It sucks not to have the faith in CCP's ability to do capital ships right. Right now my tentative goal is to get into a moros. But I'm not convinced it's a good idea. I'm so not-convinced I let my isk-generating alt account go inactive until some kind of balance is achieved, and I can feel I trust capitals not getting nerfed to oblivion.

my vision of how the dreads should balance:

Moros: strength - devastating against sub-capitals, highest sustained armor tank, very high DPS at close ranges (usefulness of antimatter ammo), weakness - moderate DPS against capitals/structures outside of short range
Revelation: strength - highest reinforced armor tank, high DPS at a variety of ranges especially with no reload times, weakness - doesn't outperform in any particular area, just good all-rounder, only moderate DPS at extremely short and long ranges
nag: strength - 4 hardpoints should equal massive unparalleled DPS at most ranges, weakness - less tank than other dreads (but not pathetically so)
phoenix: srength - highly effective long range DPS (with no falloff), weakness - least effective DPS at short to moderate ranges

How much of my balance vision is true, or should be true? If they were effectively balanced as I suggest, would there be a mostly equal number of each in both large and small engagements? Or would the nature of the likely range of engagements still exclude certain ships and fittings (i.e. pre-buff blasters)?

Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.12.01 20:49:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 01/12/2009 21:29:12
Originally by: mkmin
It sucks not to have the faith in CCP's ability to do capital ships right. Right now my tentative goal is to get into a moros. But I'm not convinced it's a good idea. I'm so not-convinced ...


In case it hasn't been eminently made clear to you yet by CCP's antics, the only dread capital you should be training for now is the Revelation ._.

{edit}Changed dread to capital since CCP nyxed the Triage boost.{/edit}

Dr 0wnage
The Dark Tribe
Posted - 2009.12.01 21:33:00 - [20]
 

interesting how this didn't make its way into the patch notes...

ninja nerfs ftmfl!

Sunset Rogue
Posted - 2009.12.01 21:51:00 - [21]
 

Very strange indeed that CCP "forgot" to put this in the patch notes.

Honestly I would rather have no drone bonus at all and go for pure gunnery bonuses instead of what we have now. ick

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.02 00:40:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: I SoStoned

Actually, Moros enjoyed a massive bonus to drone damage... siege level damage without being in siege mode (500% to drone damage). Of course, this being eve, enterprising and annoying twits have been station camping with them ever since. Complete immunity to gate guns, complete immunity to return attacks due to the broken docking mechanic, and no worries about loosing extremely cheap drones (compared to a carrier loosing its fighters).

THIS is why they've changed the drone damage bonus to be effective in siege mode only.
If you don't mind sharing, could you please tell me where you got the 500% figure?

Bottom line is this: They've taken a ship that has been around with the same characteristics for a long time and nerfed the guts out of it. THIS time they just did it. No warning, no notes, they just did it.

CCP keeps saying they listen to the people giving them money. My question is this: Which people would those be? Any particular group of people? Maybe a group that flys a lot of Amarr ships? Maybe a group that has zero interest in balanced game play? Perhaps it's the group that considers it a win if they drive other players from the game. Whoever it is there's only one group that is ultimately to blame. CCP. If for no other reason than they listen to and implement the desires of special interest group(s).

I'm sickened.

achoura
Posted - 2009.12.02 00:54:00 - [23]
 

Well the thinking is it's drone have been reduced but rail boosted bringing it in line with the other dreads while shooting pos type thingamajigs. Unfortunately the math whiz crunching the numbers seems to have failed while accounting for the fact that the moros does not have drone for pos bashing, it has drone for shooting smaller ships. So they "balanced" the moros to bring the pos hooting dps in-line with the other dreads. It's a pity that it's now trying to fill the role that the revelation already does better, while removing the, literally unique, role of the moros.

So someone in ccp ran some numbers, changed some numbers in the code and never bothered to check the final effects. Left hand not knowing what the right is doing? Or was it slipped back in deliberately?

For ccp it looks like deliberate deception - regardless of whether it is or isn't - people are going to be logging in and be (understandably) ******-off.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.02 01:05:00 - [24]
 

Well the thinking with the rails boosted and drones reduced. The maths wizz seems to have gotten the maths right. Why not putlasers on a moros ?

The code went awol and decepticions. Titans can dd in low sec to

Hans Rex
Gallente
Federation of Traders and Miners
Posted - 2009.12.02 01:06:00 - [25]
 

And that is what is so irritating. It looks like a deliberate deception. Nerf proposed, put on sisi, player outrage, nerf removed. So it sits there normal for weeks, then 2 days before launch in slips major nerf with no patch notes.

All this after a dev makes several posts about no such thing as hidden nerfs. At most they are a simple oversite. Well in this case I say bull****.

Sunset Rogue
Posted - 2009.12.03 09:09:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Hans Rex
And that is what is so irritating. It looks like a deliberate deception. Nerf proposed, put on sisi, player outrage, nerf removed. So it sits there normal for weeks, then 2 days before launch in slips major nerf with no patch notes.

All this after a dev makes several posts about no such thing as hidden nerfs. At most they are a simple oversite. Well in this case I say bull****.


Yeah. This isn't a "oh lol we forgot, sorry"
Fix the moros. (and the nag, and the phoenix)

5ilent 5hift
Amarr
Daj'Juntar
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:02:00 - [27]
 

I have to admit, i'm quite shocked by this... I've always known ccp makes mistakes when balancing things, especially cap's, but slipping in a nerf and not putting it in the patch notes? damn.

Also, thank **** for me choosing an amarrain character when i did Shocked

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:09:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: 5ilent 5hift
I have to admit, i'm quite shocked by this... I've always known ccp makes mistakes when balancing things, especially cap's, but slipping in a nerf and not putting it in the patch notes? damn.

Also, thank **** for me choosing an amarrain character when i did Shocked


well we did expect stealth nerfs not in patch notes and ccp devs replied that all things would be listed, covert ops deploying covert cyno fields was another stealth buff

Alex Raptos
Caldari
Phoenix Rising.
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:10:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: HeliosGal
Originally by: 5ilent 5hift
I have to admit, i'm quite shocked by this... I've always known ccp makes mistakes when balancing things, especially cap's, but slipping in a nerf and not putting it in the patch notes? damn.

Also, thank **** for me choosing an amarrain character when i did Shocked


well we did expect stealth nerfs not in patch notes and ccp devs replied that all things would be listed, covert ops deploying covert cyno fields was another stealth buff
Correct me on the wild assumption that i'm wrong, but Covert Ops have ALWAYS been able to deploy Covert Cynos. Just stop trying to look smart already Helios.

Sunset Rogue
Posted - 2009.12.03 17:53:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: HeliosGal

well we did expect stealth nerfs not in patch notes and ccp devs replied that all things would be listed, covert ops deploying covert cyno fields was another stealth buff

That isn't new. Take your stupidity elsewhere.

@ CCP: why was this intentionally withheld from the patch notes, and when do you plan to fix the moros, phoenix, and naglfar?
What are your plans toward fixing the three dreads?


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