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EtherealPain
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.11.09 01:14:00 - [1]
 

can someone explain this to me??? and would it be viable on a tempest?
or any non caldari ship?

Vincent Clarke
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.11.09 01:33:00 - [2]
 

passive shield tanking, not as good as the active mods is good for crusiers, and frigates because it uses no cap, which helps loads with shield boosting, and running a setup, while on a battleship this isn't so much of a problem because its the cap to handle active on constantly (or at least long periods of time)

EtherealPain
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.11.09 01:47:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: EtherealPain on 09/11/2004 01:50:24
i have no idea what you just said..

dose it use hardiners? i take it it dosnt use boosters, but dose it use the sheild recharger modules? or sheild power relays?

Directive
Posted - 2004.11.09 08:57:00 - [4]
 

Pottsey is possibly best person to answer questions regarding passive shield tanking.

Elrathias
Caldari
Legio Prima Victrix
Posted - 2004.11.09 10:03:00 - [5]
 

its not viable. passive tanking takes 100% of your low and medslot wich pottsey "forgets" to mention wich leaves you with #1 nothing to hold the enemy with, #2 no mwd to catch up with your enemy, and #3 extremely low cap recharge....

you say tepest, i say shieldtank it if your using 1400's, armortank it if you using 800's, dual 650's or 425's.

Dust Puppy
Posted - 2004.11.09 10:07:00 - [6]
 

A lot of people say it won't work but I suspect that almost all of them have only looked at the numbers and never tried that for themselves. Pottsey is the only one I've heard of that has tried it. The numbers don't look good by the way but I'm not knocking it till I tried it.

blahh
Posted - 2004.11.09 12:05:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Dust Puppy
A lot of people say it won't work but I suspect that almost all of them have only looked at the numbers and never tried that for themselves. Pottsey is the only one I've heard of that has tried it. The numbers don't look good by the way but I'm not knocking it till I tried it.


I think it would be viable with the right setup. Obviously noway near as good as an armor tanked Apoc with high cap skills and named repairers / hardeners, but still good enough for some situations. And tanks are extremely vulnerable to Noseratu / Energy Neutralizers.. a passive setup wouldnt have that problem.

Imhotep Khem
Minmatar
Doom Guard
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2004.11.09 16:53:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Elrathias
its not viable. passive tanking takes 100% of your low and medslot wich pottsey "forgets" to mention wich leaves you with #1 nothing to hold the enemy with, #2 no mwd to catch up with your enemy, and #3 extremely low cap recharge....

you say tepest, i say shieldtank it if your using 1400's, armortank it if you using 800's, dual 650's or 425's.


Same with rupture. If using Artillery, use shields. I hesitate to call it shield tanking because using Artillery is kind of counting on you keeping your distance and not taking too much damage. You will die vs a ship like the MOA however. And if you use autocannons, armor tank.

Take your pick, but the armor tanking Rupture will spank the shield <i>using</i> rupture. I dont know of a ship that can bet its corresponding armor tanking version except maybe the MOA!?

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.11.09 17:49:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 09/11/2004 17:56:15
“and would it be viable on a tempest?”
In theory yes because you have lots of low and mid slots and missiles that don’t drain cap so you could shoot for ages perhaps even use a cap draining modules in the mid slot. The only ships I tested with is the Dominix and I am still learning about passive charge my self. So I cannot be sure.




“its not viable. passive tanking takes 100% of your low and medslot wich pottsey "forgets" to mention wich leaves you with #1 nothing to hold the enemy with, #2 no mwd to catch up with your enemy, and #3 extremely low cap recharge....”
That’s half true you are not forced to go for a full low and mid slots dedicated to passive. That just me being extreme and that gives you double what a large booster gives. You can afford to scarp 1 or 2 mid or 3 low slots and put in none passive boosting modules not both though. I have just started playing around with EM resistance and found I can lower my shield recharge rate from 102 points per second to 86 points per second but gain 37.5 EM resistance. That’s still double a large shield booster T1 which is only 40 per second. (not 100% we have the maths right for passive charge 102 points per second might not be correct)

The biggest problem is lack of cap. You have lot of cap to play around with because no booster draining cap but recharge is slow. You can fire large Hybrid weapons for around 4 to 6 perhaps 10 minuets before running out of cap then it takes ages to charge up. So if you’re a laser user don’t even think about using passive.

As Elrathias pointed out there are draw backs. MWD is a no go it drains you cap to fast and the reduction in shield straight has a massive bad impact on passive charge. Its not really practical to use any modules that active and drain your own cap. If you have a friend with you who warp and target scrabbles then passive will work. If you need to warp and target scrabble your self passive is a waste of time. It’s good for agent missions or rat hunting no worrying about turning boosters on. Warp in kill then warp out.






“ose it use hardiners? i take it it dosnt use boosters, but dose it use the sheild recharger modules? or sheild power relays?”
Use a mix of shield extenders, Shield recharges in the mid slots and shield relays in the low slot. Do not use shield flux. It might be worth using a shield harder to two. Perhaps EM resistance boost. You can lose a bit of shield recarger but gain a lot of cap recarger by swaping out 2 or 3 shield relays and using Power Diagnostics.




Short version is

Strength
-Group shield skills have a very large impact on shield points per second. Like a free Mid Shield booster on 24/7
-No running out of cap and suddenly losing shield strength meaning death.
-Less worry about cap draining modules from the enemy
-More shield points per second then using boosters and you can keep it for longer. In fact if there damage is below your points per second you can keep it up as long as the servers are up.
-More free cap for weapons
-Works well with drone based ships.

Weakness
-Only works on some ships.
-Generally less flexible then other setups.
-Limits your weapon and module options
-Very slow cap charge.
-Expensive to setup due to modules not being popular and hard to buy.
-No cap draining modules with Hybrid weapons or anything that lowers shield cap. Missiles might be able to get away with 1 or 2 cap draining modules.
-No T2 low slot modules so you’re forced to low T1.
-Everyone thinks you crazy

Did I miss anything?

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.11.09 19:05:00 - [10]
 

you can go overboard with passive shield tanking by equipping Eagle (elite cruiser) with 5 T2 large shield extenders and 4 T2 shield power relays.. this will barely fit

you end up with 8823 shields and 276.28 second recharge, average shield recharge of 32 shields per second. Since shield recharhe is non-linear, it's slower after 50% shield and faster under 50%. So when shields are near 0%, you can get recharhe of about 62 per second

with this setup you'll have no cap, no weapons, no med slots, no low slots. Very Happy

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.11.09 20:34:00 - [11]
 

Ephemeron that setup gives you 76.6 shield hit points per second thats good for a crusier. Might make a good cargo ship. Cannot think of much else does it have a drone bay?

Vasq
Kinda'Shujaa
Posted - 2004.11.09 20:47:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: EtherealPain
can someone explain this to me??? and would it be viable on a tempest?
or any non caldari ship?

passive armor tankin mods r the ones that u don't have to activate, and hence use no cap.
they r usually not as good as the ones that u have to activate, but those use cap.
e.g. (and these figures r not accurate, but give an idea)
passive armor hardener ...30% thermal resistance (its allways on, u don't have to activate it, uses no cap)
std armor hardener ... 50% thermal resistance.. uses 40 cap every 20 secs.
thought i'd explain that, if thats what u didn't understand

Celt Eireson
Minmatar
Posted - 2004.11.09 21:32:00 - [13]
 

Its more viable with assault cruisers because of their already high resists, especially if you use faction passive hardeners which give 40% bonus.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.11.09 22:01:00 - [14]
 

“passive armor tankin mods r the ones that u don't have to activate, and hence use no cap.”
I think he meant how do you do passive shield tanking. Boost you shield out put without using any cap.

Passive amour tanking by its self is impossible I think. No matter what you do amour does not self repair so you going to die. But passive shield is possible due to the self repair without cap draining. Perhaps you could tank amour so high it would take as stupid amount of damage to kill you.

Hematic
Caldari
R.O.T.
Posted - 2004.11.09 22:26:00 - [15]
 

Here is why passive will ALWAYS be worse than boosters:

Cap per second starts out higher than shields per second. Since shield recharge mods aren't any better than cap recharge mods you'll never achieve a better shield recharge rate than cap.

Then when you add a booster which converts cap to shield at a ratio of better than 1 for 1 it makes that much more arguement for shield boosting over passive recharge.

Eraza
Gallente
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
Posted - 2004.11.09 23:52:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Eraza on 09/11/2004 23:55:16
i tried that on my megathron... with 4 shield extender 2's, 6 shield power relay 1's and 1 power diag 2, a got a shield of 12064, with 383 recharge... then i added 6 heavy pulse lasers(cheapest rares, for the cpu, with some luck you can find them below 500k a piece), and 2 siege launchers.. perfect for doing lvl 3 kill missions, without needing to pay much attention to it... very silly idea, i know... but still, it worked fine.. even the mordus mission couldnt get the shield down, even when i let them try :P

EtherealPain
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.11.10 02:36:00 - [17]
 

i like the idea of this, can someone plz give me a possible setup for a tempest or typhoon? and i still dont get if your suposed to use active sheild hardiners or what?

archangel sean
Gallente
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2004.11.10 04:27:00 - [18]
 

These extreme setups are used against suckadons and sukapocs...the ones that use 6+ heavy NOS.


Every setup has a counter-setup.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.11.10 08:09:00 - [19]
 

“i like the idea of this, can someone plz give me a possible setup for a tempest or typhoon? and i still dont get if your suposed to use active sheild hardiners or what?”[

Try this. It will not be the best setup but I don’t have time or the skills to test that ship and try different things. In the mid slots use 3 shield recharge’s. In the rest of the mid slots use larger shield extenders. Now in all the low slots fit shield relays.

Find some low level rats and test. Find some higher level rats and test, find some BS’s and test. You shields should drop faster then around 30 to 50% hold steady. Play around with different modules take out of few shield relays. Try different mix’s of shield extenders and shield recharges. Don’t use any active shield hardners. I sometimes fit 1 passive shield hardner.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.11.10 08:36:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 10/11/2004 08:41:23
Edited by: Pottsey on 10/11/2004 08:38:36
Cap per second starts out higher than shields per second.
They are so close it hardly makes a difference. On my ship its. Cap 5.3 and Shield 2.9. ( I didnt use the extra shield skills in the above number)
Your not taking account of the extra skills that effect passive shields. There are more skills that boost passive charge then cap charge.




”Since shield recharge mods aren't any better than cap recharge mods you'll never achieve a better shield recharge rate than cap.”
How do you work that one out? A large cap extender only gives a 400 cap boost while a large shield extender is a 1000 boost. Also a cap relay has -10% to shield boosters. A sheild relay had no down side to passive sheilds charge.







”Then when you add a booster which converts cap to shield at a ratio of better than 1 for 1 it makes that much more arguement for shield boosting over passive recharge.”

As for your ratio idea my passive is 102 for 0 over 4 seconds how is that worse then shield boosting which is 1 for 1? T2 is shield booster is 1.5 to 1 my T2 would be higher if I could get it. Though if you use a cap relay your ratio is worse then 1 for 1.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2004.11.10 12:49:00 - [21]
 

I don't know anything about shield tanking myself, but my hat's off to Pottsey for taking a crazy-sounding idea and running with it. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but the very fact that there's more than one way to do things is one of the best points in this game. /me hates cookie-cutter templates. Cool

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.11.10 12:54:00 - [22]
 

Thanks and your right the best thing about Eve is there is more then 1 way to do eveything and no best way.

Dust Puppy
Posted - 2004.11.10 12:58:00 - [23]
 

I like this theory because no matter what happens your defences always work. I don't think it repairs as well as a good armor tank or even a good shield tank and that would kind of be unbalanced if it did.

*me starts wishing for a new computer so he can try this wacky passive shield tanking setup*

Hematic
Caldari
R.O.T.
Posted - 2004.11.11 13:40:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 10/11/2004 08:41:23
Edited by: Pottsey on 10/11/2004 08:38:36
Cap per second starts out higher than shields per second.
They are so close it hardly makes a difference. On my ship its. Cap 5.3 and Shield 2.9. ( I didnt use the extra shield skills in the above number)
Your not taking account of the extra skills that effect passive shields. There are more skills that boost passive charge then cap charge.




”Since shield recharge mods aren't any better than cap recharge mods you'll never achieve a better shield recharge rate than cap.”
How do you work that one out? A large cap extender only gives a 400 cap boost while a large shield extender is a 1000 boost. Also a cap relay has -10% to shield boosters. A sheild relay had no down side to passive sheilds charge.







”Then when you add a booster which converts cap to shield at a ratio of better than 1 for 1 it makes that much more arguement for shield boosting over passive recharge.”

As for your ratio idea my passive is 102 for 0 over 4 seconds how is that worse then shield boosting which is 1 for 1? T2 is shield booster is 1.5 to 1 my T2 would be higher if I could get it. Though if you use a cap relay your ratio is worse then 1 for 1.




1) an XL T2 booster + T1 shield amp = 1 cap to 1.95 shields.
2) Don't use cap relays, use PDU II's
3) The natural shield recharge rate doesn't magically go away if I fit a shield booster. So a booster setup ALSO has the benefit of the final modified shield recharge + whatever the cap will support.
4) A scorpion as an example can perma run an XL T2 shield booster and still have a med. slot open and 19 cap. sec.(peak) in reserve.

So if you put a shield ext. II in the last med. slot that's 156 dps from the XL + 10,730.64 shield / 1074.58 recharge = 9.98 nominal dps x 2.5 (simulates peak recharge) = 24.96 = 180.96 dps absorbed.

The concept is that you get the recharge rate of both cap and shield as a bonus when boosting but lose the advantage of cap if you don't equip a booster.

BTW: What's the other skill that affects shield recharge? energy mgmt = shield mgmt, energy sys op = shield op. Not that it would matter much considering you get the benefit of those skills as well if you use a booster.

Cassious Fex
Posted - 2004.11.13 04:18:00 - [25]
 

You can't really compare raw shield hp regenerated per second for passive and active tanking without considering the increased resistances an active shield tanking setup would have.

A passive shield tanker will probably not have enough slots or cap to fit any hardeners.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.11.13 10:22:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 13/11/2004 10:26:18
“A passive shield tanker will probably not have enough slots or cap to fit any hardeners.”
You can use cap on hardeners but the point of passive shield charge is so your not using cap and running out of cap does not mean you defence drops. That’s why I use passive hardeners.

You can fit 1 to 3 hardeners depending on you ship with a passive setup.



“What's the other skill that affects shield recharge? energy mgmt = shield mgmt, energy sys op = shield op.”
Escort Tactic’s gives 10% more shield cap.



 

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