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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.26 05:41:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Burnharder
I'm frankly gobsmacked that you applaud the anti-technocracy, anti-industrial sentiments of this new green religion.




Where did I say that?

Frygok
Minmatar
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.11.26 20:17:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Frygok on 26/11/2009 20:17:58
Originally by: Arron S
Edited by: Arron S on 25/11/2009 21:11:07
Originally by: Spoon Thumb

To the Americans complaining about the tax rises, why don't you cut that massive defence budget of yours? Plant trees, not landmines



Ummm the US has not produced any Land Mines Since 1997, and all the ones they have are sitting in storage collecting dust.

Why dont you go tell that too Finland, Russia, China and South Korea aswell? who all produce landmines


Hmm, do you have any sources to back this up, specifically the part where they are supposed to be collecting dust in storage? I remember writing a university paper, stating that the US made a mockery of the Ottawa Treaty by first forcing changes before they would sign, and then afterwards refusing to sign it, stating that land mines were paramount in maintaining North Korea from invading South Korea. So gathering dust doesn't seem to compute with the State Department, who just the other day still refused to sign it, as it was still necessary for the Korean question. (Linkage )

This treaty the US has refused to sign, puts them in company with such glorious nations as China, North Korea, several Middle East nations that the US has a strained relationship with and India and Pakistan.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.27 00:21:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
And besides, we are already ruining the biodiversity on earth, last I checked there was a hundred percent correlation between the amount of human activity in an area and the decline of biodiversity. More species have gone extinct in the past 100 years than in the 10 million years before that (no source, rough estimate) and we've dont next to nothing about that.


No source, rough estimate, complete bullsh**.

Ever heard of the Cretacious-Tertiary Extinction Event? It was responsible for the extinction of an estimated 17% of all families and 50% of all genera of life on the planet. Among them, the dinosaurs.

Mankind's contribution to species extinction may be severe, but it's nowhere near THAT bad.

As for climate change: the Earth's temperature is not a fixed and permanently stable thing (obviously) and can be altered by all kinds of factors. It would be myopic in the extreme to assume that the unprecedented rate at which we as a species put out CO2 is not going to have some influence.

I do not believe that human action alone can instigate climate change. I DO believe that our influence is now sufficient to amplify and accelerate the effects of an existing trend, maybe several times over. Given that the weight of scientific opinion largely seems to be in favour of mankind contributing to climate change, with only a minority voice claiming otherwise (as happened with Gravity, Evolution, plate tectonics, and all sorts of other things we now widely accept as an accurate model of what's going on) I'm going to listen.

My interest in climate change is fairly pragmatic though. I don't think any amount of effort will halt the change, but if I can save money with a more energy efficient house as a byproduct of trying to live a more "green" life, great! But even if we all moved to a completely carbon-neutral footprint, I think the change would happen anyway just because that's what the Earth was naturally doing. You don't get anywhere by swimming against the current, you just tire yourself out. What we should be doing is looking to adapt our culture to the changing environment, not fighting to preserve the status quo.

continents drift, weather patterns change and species go extinct, and often that's the causal chain of events. All of human endeavor couldn't possibly stop these things, only accelerate them. Should we try to live green and carbon-neutral lives? Yes, because it will hopefully restore things to a less hectic pace where we can adapt to our new condition more easily. But we will have to adapt anyway, so why not start right now?

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.27 14:27:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Spoon Thumb

Guys, take a look at Venus. That's what happens if you have too much CO2 in the atmosphere.



lol! Do you work in for the CRU or something?

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.27 16:49:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Sokratesz on 27/11/2009 16:50:30
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Sokratesz
And besides, we are already ruining the biodiversity on earth, last I checked there was a hundred percent correlation between the amount of human activity in an area and the decline of biodiversity. More species have gone extinct in the past 100 years than in the 10 million years before that (no source, rough estimate) and we've dont next to nothing about that.


No source, rough estimate, complete bullsh**.


Lets compare an event that took hundreds of thousands of years and had completely natural causes with humanity's impact on earth for the past 200 years.

Eran Laude
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2009.11.27 18:23:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Eran Laude on 27/11/2009 18:28:07
I despair for the future of the human race when I see idiots posting on the internets about how they know everything there is to know about climate change. "BUT THE TEMPERATURE GRAPHS SHOW A DECREASE!" they say. "BUT THE ICE ISN'T MELTING", they scream. Unless you're studying Physical Geography, Climatology or any related Earth Science discipline - you know what your favourite media outlets are telling you, nothing more.

I study in a Geography department that specialises primarily in climatology and GIS [remote sensing and interpretation of geographical data, key to climate change research]. I talk to the researchers behind the papers that I see thrown about every day on the net regarding teh topic. I can tell you that climate change is happening, whether you want to believe it or not. We are having an effect on the climate. When you increase the quantity of the only significantly present greenhouse gas in our atmosphere by around 30% over a period that is a fraction of what climate change usually occurs over, then you're going to have a rapid warming effect. Now, of course, we aren't causing climate change - but we are severely speeding the current warming cycle up with such a sudden injection of greenhouse gases.

Unfortunately, it's too late to fully reverse it. Even the IPCC's most optimistic scenarios, predicting strict implementation of green management techniques and a worldwide phase out of fossil fuels within 10 years [lol is all I can say - **** you very much vested interests], put us going over the 2 degrees boundary needed for some measure of "catastrophic climate change". And even more unfortunate is that we can't predict whether it will lead to a medium-term 10 degree drop or a 10 degree rise in temperatures, because it could easily result in either within this century. For example, if the thermohaline circulation of water within the world's oceans fails due to climate change, the Northern Hemisphere will be plunged into an ice age with a -8 to -10 degree drop. If emissions just keep rising and release enough methane from Siberia and Canada to cause a positive feedback loop, combined with uncontrolled and exponentially increasing industrial development, we could see an increase of up to 12-14 degrees by the 2090s. It's hard to say.

But to all of you who flat-out deny the fact that the climate is currently in a process of transition, and who fail to see that humans are having a huge effect on the environment, please get off of this planet. Kthx.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.27 19:13:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Eran Laude

But to all of you who flat-out deny the fact that the climate is currently in a process of transition, and who fail to see that humans are having a huge effect on the environment, please get off of this planet. Kthx.


You're lying. I know this because a youtube video said so.

RogueWing
Tools Of The Trade
Southern Connection
Posted - 2009.11.29 13:13:00 - [68]
 

Meteorologists can't accurately predict the weather 2 weeks in advance. Why should I believe them when they claim to know what is going to happen 100 years from now?

Haxfar Portlaind
Posted - 2009.11.29 13:41:00 - [69]
 

the climate is changing, in fact we should be experience another ice age atm afaik.
and the increase of temperature, being bull****?
hey, when i was younger i was used to snow around Christmas, that ain't going happen this year. and what about the island which is slowly getting smaller?

Dravius Luxor
Minmatar
Independent Galactic Network
Posted - 2009.11.29 15:00:00 - [70]
 

I really don't understand why us humans are so short-sighted sometimes.

Climate change is a constant, permanent process... our climate is always changing. We are currently at the end of an ice age, and before too long we'll go through another one.

Besides that, being a product of the Earth, any effect we have on the climate is merely a natural process.


Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.29 15:13:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: RogueWing
Meteorologists can't accurately predict the weather 2 weeks in advance. Why should I believe them when they claim to know what is going to happen 100 years from now?


The argument from personal incredulity


Originally by: Dravius Luxor

Besides that, being a product of the Earth, any effect we have on the climate is merely a natural process.



While that seems to be a defendable statement, invoking it just shows a thorough lack of responsibility.

TRD 2371
Posted - 2009.11.29 16:42:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: TRD 2371 on 29/11/2009 16:48:21
-

Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:53:00 - [73]
 

I don't think anyone who has actually researched the topic rather than just read the typical bull**** put out by news outlets believes that anthropogenic global warming is irrefutable. Furthermore, I refuse to believe that anyone who has looked at the cost benefit analysis of cutting CO2 emissions believes that we should tackle global warming at all (even if you DO believe it is caused by man), especially when you consider the fact that we have much more pressing problems that could be solved for much less money.

HanRolo
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:59:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Eran Laude
atology or any related Earth Science discipline - you know what your favourite media outlets are telling you, nothing more.

I study in a Geography department that specialises primarily in climatology and GIS


EPIC FAIL!

plenty of gizz on your post!

all the media outlets are agreeing with you!

Mars is losing ice right now!

must be all the rovers! get off the hype wagon! I suppose if we didn't have this climate con you'd be out of a job!

Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
Posted - 2009.11.29 18:04:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Eran Laude
Edited by: Eran Laude on 27/11/2009 18:28:07
I despair for the future of the human race when I see idiots posting on the internets about how they know everything there is to know about climate change. "BUT THE TEMPERATURE GRAPHS SHOW A DECREASE!" they say. "BUT THE ICE ISN'T MELTING", they scream. Unless you're studying Physical Geography, Climatology or any related Earth Science discipline - you know what your favourite media outlets are telling you, nothing more.

Some of us are actually intelligent enough to go to places other than major media outlets. Also, the IPCC no longer claims that thermohaline circulation will shutdown (although it may slow down), and there are several other studies that agree. Then again, what do I know?

Ademaro Imre
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.30 01:12:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Eternal Error
I don't think anyone who has actually researched the topic rather than just read the typical bull**** put out by news outlets believes that anthropogenic global warming is irrefutable.


Really? Irrefutable? Can you produce the original raw temperature data collected by the CRU ? Opps - NO! They threw it out to "save space" because all those books and magnetic tape took too much room in their new building.

Doctor Penguin
Amarr
Sacred Templars
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.30 02:07:00 - [77]
 

So much rebel without a cause in this thread. Pathetic.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 03:41:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: thisisnotright
Originally by: Gariuys

But apparently over here atleast the fact that the earth stopped warming up in 2000 and has been cooling again since 2002 isn't news


Eh? The world is not cooling. Just look at the ice caps and Greenland ffs. I'm suprised that people are willinlgy climbing on board the Glenn Beck crazy train. Poor people. I pity you


You really should try reading, the earth is warmer now then it was 30 years ago. The higher tree lines, melting glaciers/ice caps, and everything else are pretty clear about that. It's just not only not getting any warmer, it's cooling back down again a bit.

Nobody is saying ( that 's sane that is ) that the global climate hasn't changed. The reasons and severity of those changes are in question. Not the actual change itself.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 03:53:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Eran Laude
Edited by: Eran Laude on 27/11/2009 18:28:07
I despair for the future of the human race when I see idiots posting on the internets about how they know everything there is to know about climate change. "BUT THE TEMPERATURE GRAPHS SHOW A DECREASE!" they say. "BUT THE ICE ISN'T MELTING", they scream. Unless you're studying Physical Geography, Climatology or any related Earth Science discipline - you know what your favourite media outlets are telling you, nothing more.

I study in a Geography department that specialises primarily in climatology and GIS [remote sensing and interpretation of geographical data, key to climate change research]. I talk to the researchers behind the papers that I see thrown about every day on the net regarding teh topic. I can tell you that climate change is happening, whether you want to believe it or not. We are having an effect on the climate. When you increase the quantity of the only significantly present greenhouse gas in our atmosphere by around 30% over a period that is a fraction of what climate change usually occurs over, then you're going to have a rapid warming effect. Now, of course, we aren't causing climate change - but we are severely speeding the current warming cycle up with such a sudden injection of greenhouse gases.

Unfortunately, it's too late to fully reverse it. Even the IPCC's most optimistic scenarios, predicting strict implementation of green management techniques and a worldwide phase out of fossil fuels within 10 years [lol is all I can say - **** you very much vested interests], put us going over the 2 degrees boundary needed for some measure of "catastrophic climate change". And even more unfortunate is that we can't predict whether it will lead to a medium-term 10 degree drop or a 10 degree rise in temperatures, because it could easily result in either within this century. For example, if the thermohaline circulation of water within the world's oceans fails due to climate change, the Northern Hemisphere will be plunged into an ice age with a -8 to -10 degree drop. If emissions just keep rising and release enough methane from Siberia and Canada to cause a positive feedback loop, combined with uncontrolled and exponentially increasing industrial development, we could see an increase of up to 12-14 degrees by the 2090s. It's hard to say.

But to all of you who flat-out deny the fact that the climate is currently in a process of transition, and who fail to see that humans are having a huge effect on the environment, please get off of this planet. Kthx.


Then you should also know that there is a "feeling" that we're having a huge effect, it's not a proven fact. It's not a very hard science, cause we lack the data. I live in a country that's fecked either way, either by ice, or by water. Makes little difference. It's gonna happen, we might be able to slow it down a little, and I really do think we should try. But I have no illusions that me using a different light bulb is gonna "save the planet". The planet doesn't need saving, WE need saving.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:08:00 - [80]
 

TBH, it doesn't matter if climate change can be influenced by humans or not. Since we should be reducing emissions ANYWAYS in an attempt to combat smog.

Haraldhardrade
Amarr
Pax Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.30 07:32:00 - [81]
 

1% of scientists doubt climate changes are man made. 1%.
40% of the public doubt the climate changes are man made.

Not suprising due to all the misleading propaganda that the likes of Bush and Exxon were spreading. And not a suprise considering how many cretins there are, without an informed opinion on the world. Not suprising that one of the places with the most doubters is a country where most of the population cant even place France on a map.

If your only news source is Faux News or the daily mail, then I pity you. Because there are overwhelming evidence of lobbyists and corrupt politicians deliberately spreading false information and altering correct information.

I cant say I have any sympathy or tolerance for the so called sceptics. They are in the same category as the flat earth'ers or 9.11 conspiracy nuts.

Ademaro Imre
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.30 08:05:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Haraldhardrade

I cant say I have any sympathy or tolerance for the so called sceptics. They are in the same category as the flat earth'ers or 9.11 conspiracy nuts.


haha

Quote:
The fact is that we canít account for the lack of warming at the moment. -- Kevin Trenberth Oct. 12th 2009, lead author of the 1995, 2001, and 2007 IPCC Scientific Assessment of Climate Change, head of Climate Analysis Section at the National Center for Atmospheric Research


Quote:
... but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.

Burnharder
Posted - 2009.11.30 10:07:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Burnharder on 30/11/2009 10:12:30
Originally by: Haraldhardrade
1% of scientists doubt climate changes are man made. 1%.
40% of the public doubt the climate changes are man made.

Not suprising due to all the misleading propaganda that the likes of Bush and Exxon were spreading. And not a suprise considering how many cretins there are, without an informed opinion on the world. Not suprising that one of the places with the most doubters is a country where most of the population cant even place France on a map.

If your only news source is Faux News or the daily mail, then I pity you. Because there are overwhelming evidence of lobbyists and corrupt politicians deliberately spreading false information and altering correct information.

I cant say I have any sympathy or tolerance for the so called sceptics. They are in the same category as the flat earth'ers or 9.11 conspiracy nuts.


Amazingly blinkered ignorance of the facts alert! There is no bigger special interest than the Goverment. Worldwide, around $75,000,000,000 ($75b) has been spent by Governments supporting the paradigm. Exxon has funded $25,000,000 ($25m) of research against. On the side of the warmists are some of the largest financial institutions in the world (Goldman, Morgan Stanley, et al). They're excited about trading and hedging carbon credits. It's a tax on EVERYTHING we do and they get to take a cut of it.

This is scientific fraud and you're not interested! I'm shocked. Shocked


Haraldhardrade
Amarr
Pax Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.30 10:37:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Gariuys


You really should try reading, the earth is warmer now then it was 30 years ago. The higher tree lines, melting glaciers/ice caps, and everything else are pretty clear about that. It's just not only not getting any warmer, it's cooling back down again a bit.

Nobody is saying ( that 's sane that is ) that the global climate hasn't changed. The reasons and severity of those changes are in question. Not the actual change itself.


Sorry I missed your post earlier.

Re :warmer cooling back : Nothing is in a straight line, there will always be mild winters/cold winters and hot summers/colder summers. But the temprature average has been on a steady rise.


Originally by: Burnharder
Amazingly blinkered ignorance of the facts alert! There is no bigger special interest than the Goverment. Worldwide, around $75,000,000,000 ($75b) has been spent by Governments supporting the paradigm. Exxon has funded $25,000,000 ($25m) of research against. On the side of the warmists are some of the largest financial institutions in the world (Goldman, Morgan Stanley, et al). They're excited about trading and hedging carbon credits. It's a tax on EVERYTHING we do and they get to take a cut of it.

This is scientific fraud and you're not interested! I'm shocked. Shocked


The money spent by the government has been spent on RESEARCH. The money spent by oil companies has been spent on PROPAGANDA. Do you honestly think governments would spend $75,000,000,000 on something that would cost them huge sums of money? In case you are living under a rock, the world comunities are trying to agree on cutting back emissions these days, and going green. And thats something thats going to be VERY costly. I repeat, since you are unaware of this....ITS GOING TO COST A LOT!

Further more, dont you dare speak about facts when you are so deluded.

Burnharder
Posted - 2009.11.30 12:18:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Haraldhardrade

The money spent by the government has been spent on RESEARCH. The money spent by oil companies has been spent on PROPAGANDA. Do you honestly think governments would spend $75,000,000,000 on something that would cost them huge sums of money? In case you are living under a rock, the world comunities are trying to agree on cutting back emissions these days, and going green. And thats something thats going to be VERY costly. I repeat, since you are unaware of this....ITS GOING TO COST A LOT!

Further more, dont you dare speak about facts when you are so deluded.


You're joking, right? Propaganda? Have you been reading the newspapers/watching the news over the last 5 years? It's wall-to-wall green propaganda. The British Government even has a bunny-drowning advert in the UK about Global Warming (sorry, it's called Climate Change now, because it isn't warming). It doesn't cost the government huge sums of money, it costs US, tax-payers. With my country running up debt at £175bn per annum, do you really think the government gives a crap about how much it spends and on what?


Doctor Penguin
Amarr
Sacred Templars
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.30 12:36:00 - [86]
 

I find it ironic that someone called Burnharder doesn't believe in climate change.

Again, the amount of rebel without a cause in this thread is pathetic.

Alex Raptos
Caldari
Phoenix Rising.
Posted - 2009.11.30 13:12:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Doctor Penguin
I find it ironic that someone called Burnharder doesn't believe in climate change.

Again, the amount of rebel without a cause in this thread is pathetic.
And I find it ironic that a Fictional Character in an Online Game called Doctor Penguin is neither a Doctor nor a Penguin.

silly person
Posted - 2009.11.30 13:23:00 - [88]
 

This seemed relevant

Also, there are a lot of statistical statements in this thread. Do you all have this **** memorized or something? Why does no one post a reference to back up their claims? Otherwise its just "blah blah, only 1% of scientist don't believe in climate change", or "yadda yadda, the icecaps aren't really melting".

Haraldhardrade
Amarr
Pax Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.30 13:34:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Haraldhardrade on 30/11/2009 13:35:38
Originally by: Burnharder


You're joking, right? Propaganda? Have you been reading the newspapers/watching the news over the last 5 years? It's wall-to-wall green propaganda. The British Government even has a bunny-drowning advert in the UK about Global Warming (sorry, it's called Climate Change now, because it isn't warming). It doesn't cost the government huge sums of money, it costs US, tax-payers. With my country running up debt at £175bn per annum, do you really think the government gives a crap about how much it spends and on what?




So whats the motive behind these 'climate lies' then? It cant be money, because going green is going to cost a fortune. Is it the new world order? Illuminati? What, please tell us.



Originally by: silly person
This seemed relevant

Also, there are a lot of statistical statements in this thread. Do you all have this **** memorized or something? Why does no one post a reference to back up their claims? Otherwise its just "blah blah, only 1% of scientist don't believe in climate change", or "yadda yadda, the icecaps aren't really melting".


Faux News.


silly person
Posted - 2009.11.30 13:50:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Haraldhardrade
Faux News.

Excellent debate tactic. But at least Faux News links a reference on their story.


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