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Grump Bonedriver
Bad Attitudes Inc
Posted - 2009.11.22 15:53:00 - [1]
 

Not sure which forum to ask this in, so I'll try here...

Background: I've read through the different forum sections and there seem to be several players you can highlight as having a community reputation (good or bad) specific to an area of the game. It seems that a La Vista Vista or a Mynxee type gets solid interaction, because they make a dedicated effort to communicate in detail (often through blogs) the things they think can be improved on the issues they are very close to.

Question: Is there a player or players that have become a community Czar for the specific area of the EVE User Interface? Some of the folks that blog a lot comment in passing on the UI, as do some CSM candidates each election cycle. But I haven't really seen a UI-focused commentary that comes close to those that discuss Piracy, Wormholes, Ships/Fits, or Sovereignty for example. Have I missed it or is it missing? The closest I've seen is EVE is Broken and even that blog spends only a subset of effort on the UI.

Rationale: I've played EVE for 6 months now after having played other MMOs, RPGs, and FPSs for many years. I enjoy the sandbox, the single shard, the player-run economy, and all of the other areas that make EVE fairly unique. Unfortunately, when I sit down to the game the other thing that stands out as unique to me is the UI. It strikes me as a last-generation, outdated implementation in desperate need of a "reimagining" going forward. I think I'd like to make inputs for both immediate and long-term changes, and rather than shotgun them at the Features and Ideas forum I thought if there was a UI Czar I'd initiate contact with them first.

Anyone out there I should look to?

Alex Raptos
Caldari
Phoenix Rising.
Posted - 2009.11.22 17:42:00 - [2]
 

Xaen if he's still around.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2009.11.22 17:52:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Taedrin on 22/11/2009 17:53:12
Originally by: Alex Raptos
Xaen if he's still around.


IIRC, he's still around. However, he is a broken man now - bitter and resentful after years of CCP making no apparent true progress on fixing this horrible UI.

Kurfin
Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.22 18:13:00 - [4]
 

How hard would it really be for CCP to create a completely new interface?

Grump Bonedriver
Bad Attitudes Inc
Posted - 2009.11.22 18:25:00 - [5]
 

Xaen does indeed appear to be the person I seek.

Xaen's thread seems to have a lot of what I was looking for. Although I'm worried because it doesn't look like he's gotten much attention after 3 years.

MsValentineWiggin
Posted - 2009.11.23 03:07:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Edited by: Taedrin on 22/11/2009 17:53:12
Originally by: Alex Raptos
Xaen if he's still around.


IIRC, he's still around. However, he is a broken man now - bitter and resentful after years of CCP making no apparent true progress on fixing this horrible UI.


Originally by: Grump Bonedriver
Xaen does indeed appear to be the person I seek.

Xaen's thread seems to have a lot of what I was looking for. Although I'm worried because it doesn't look like he's gotten much attention after 3 years.


Dante's "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here" applies here. It is frustrating while you still care.

A tinfoil hat theory is that the UI is deliberately unsophisticated and unmodifiable. This marketing ploy gives it a hip, edgey feel so customers see EVE as a niche product and not some mainstream game like You Know What.

A better UI is obviously not a priority, but hope springs eternal: The latest CSM has "CCP pleased everyone by announcing they hired a “Font Guy” which means that improvements on that front are to be expected" - we are hurtling towards the late 90s. Plus the new IGB.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.11.23 03:20:00 - [7]
 

So am I considered a three eyed mutant with an extra arm growing out of my back if I don't have any usability issues with the ui especially since they made all the windows movable including the ship panel? About the only real issues I have heard about the ui have less to do with its utlitarian looks and moar that some of the tools like the corp window are really crappily done but then again that was mostly Rells territory. Only real thing I want for the ui now is an option to use a second display for all the windows and map whilst leaving the main screen free of clutter for the pew pew.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.11.23 04:08:00 - [8]
 

The UI is my pet hate in this game for lots of reasons (putting off new players is one of them). I've always assumed they do not have a UI guy at all, they just add bits to it as and when. Maybe its just not considered sexy enough for devs.

I'm always surprised that they spend a lot of time and effort on graphics which are very good considering the limitations they have to work to then ruin it by a crappy UI.

There's an old expression in the UK 'Ruining the ship for a ha'peth of tar'

Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2009.11.23 04:25:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Zeba
So am I considered a three eyed mutant with an extra arm growing out of my back if I don't have any usability issues with the ui...



Yes. The amount of wasted space, wasted clicks, lack of keybindings, lack of intuitive menus, counterintuitive menus, hidden features, broken features, and general overall assfullness makes the Eve UI quite possibly the worst game UI out there.

It speaks strongly to the strength of the game that it does so well and remains so enjoyable in the face of that.

CavoFury1
It's A Trap
Posted - 2009.11.23 04:31:00 - [10]
 

It's like a computer.

What are the 3 things that are most important to your every day computer use.

Keyboard, mouse, and the screen.

But everyone focus's on the guts of the PC instead.

Same with MMO's.

People focus on eyecandy, FPS, Lag, "balancing", new content. But the thing, that EVERY SINGLE player in EVE interacts with from the time they log in, to the time they log out, the UI, gets very little love.

I DID notice that a bunch of the ideas in the post linked above HAVE been integrated into the game.

But theres still a lot.

My personal pet peeve in the game is the damage notification window.

I play at 1920x1200. I don't need the damned damage notification window to be right in the middle of the screen the way it is.

My suggestion, peel it off to a chat window, that we can move/remove, that shows the last 100/1000 notifications in a chat window.

I saw this in an MMO from 9 years ago. It worked well. Those who wanted to see the damage notifications as they happen, just peel that window off and put it above their chat windows, or off to the side. Others merged it into the main chat window tabs. Others removed it entirely.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.11.23 04:33:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Lui Kai
Originally by: Zeba
So am I considered a three eyed mutant with an extra arm growing out of my back if I don't have any usability issues with the ui...



Yes. The amount of wasted space, wasted clicks, lack of keybindings, lack of intuitive menus, counterintuitive menus, hidden features, broken features, and general overall assfullness makes the Eve UI quite possibly the worst game UI out there.

It speaks strongly to the strength of the game that it does so well and remains so enjoyable in the face of that.
Well I guess with the extra eye and arm I am at an advantage then as I picked up on the ui within hours of first playing the game though I will concede the points on unintuitiveness for new users and some rather odd placement of certain menu choices plus the universaly despised corp interface. Razz

Mr M
Posted - 2009.11.23 04:34:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Lui Kai
Yes. The amount of wasted space, wasted clicks, lack of keybindings, lack of intuitive menus, counterintuitive menus, hidden features, broken features, and general overall assfullness makes the Eve UI quite possibly the worst game UI out there.

My pet peeve is still the lack of a standard. Science and Industry is one way, fitting another. And poor poor LP store looks like something the cat cough up.

Salia WinterDrake
Tsunami Cartel
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.23 05:24:00 - [13]
 

All good replies - yeah the UI or lack thereof frustrates me too.

The ultra-tiny text, the inconsistency, the overall higgledy-piggledy-ness of it all.

So, the main question is not what needs to be shouted, but who's doing the shouting?

You stepping up to the plate, Grump? Laughing

Arkeladin
Posted - 2009.11.23 05:46:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kurfin
How hard would it really be for CCP to create a completely new interface?


By all accounts, not easy.

Most modern MMOs have their user interface done as LUA scripts that are fairly easily modifiable. WoW helped set that standard, and as a result there's literally THOUSANDS of different interface mods out there for it.

EvE is of a much earlier generation, and the UI is hardcoded - much like the original Ultima Online, or Everquest.

To offer a better UI they's either:

1) Have to recode the ENTIRE UI after redesign, with no guarantee of it being any more usable than the original until it hits SiSi. If they then have to change it, that means ANOTHER rewrite. And so on, and so on...it can grow quickly to a non-trivial task. Safe part of this method is that you don't have to worry about nasty user mods enabling things int he game that shouldn't be enabled.

2) Recode the UI once, and make it script (LUA or otherwise) based. Benefit of this is that UI changes can be pushed quickly - bad part is that the UI becomes highly modifiable, and as such more open to cheaters. Even the current UI had that issue for a bit - remember the external program that monitored Local and warned you automagically henever anyone new entered? It was deemed a exploit and banned - and now you know where all the cries to remove Local came from.

Either way has it's pluses and minuses - and CCP probrably doesn't want to devote the time to either right now.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2009.11.23 06:45:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Zeba
So am I considered a three eyed mutant with an extra arm growing out of my back if I don't have any usability issues with the ui especially since they made all the windows movable including the ship panel?


No, i'm pretty sure everyone here can use the UI just fine to do whatever they need. But just because we got used to how agressively obtuse it is doesn't make it good, in any way.

Whoever designed it completely phoned it in. They should allow UI modifications just so grade school kids can give them better ideas.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.11.23 07:31:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 23/11/2009 07:35:59

Originally by: Arkeladin
Originally by: Kurfin
How hard would it really be for CCP to create a completely new interface?


By all accounts, not easy.

Most modern MMOs have their user interface done as LUA scripts that are fairly easily modifiable. WoW helped set that standard, and as a result there's literally THOUSANDS of different interface mods out there for it.

EvE is of a much earlier generation, and the UI is hardcoded - much like the original Ultima Online, or Everquest.

To offer a better UI they's either:

1) Have to recode the ENTIRE UI after redesign, with no guarantee of it being any more usable than the original until it hits SiSi. If they then have to change it, that means ANOTHER rewrite. And so on, and so on...it can grow quickly to a non-trivial task. Safe part of this method is that you don't have to worry about nasty user mods enabling things int he game that shouldn't be enabled.

2) Recode the UI once, and make it script (LUA or otherwise) based. Benefit of this is that UI changes can be pushed quickly - bad part is that the UI becomes highly modifiable, and as such more open to cheaters. Even the current UI had that issue for a bit - remember the external program that monitored Local and warned you automagically henever anyone new entered? It was deemed a exploit and banned - and now you know where all the cries to remove Local came from.

Either way has it's pluses and minuses - and CCP probrably doesn't want to devote the time to either right now.


My preference is LUA script. Player mods in other games are amazing and cost the company nothing. It would revolutionise EVE and attract a lot of new player's who are used to a quality interface and like to bespoke it to their own tastes. Its not that hard to code it to restrict what it can do. The days LUA scripts can be used to cheat are long gone thankfully. They can simply remove the ability to have macro's to start and then introduce them as they get familiar with the ways to make them useful but not overpowered.

I really think they should consider biting the bullet on this. I suspect they found the current UI made WIS useless at worse or very irritating at best so I bet they are having to redesign anyway. Damned if I'm going to right click and select to have my avatar walk.

sg3s
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.23 07:54:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: sg3s on 23/11/2009 07:56:10
Ok let me be clear on this... I AGREE that the current UI is a ****ing mess... But..

1. As stated above a new UI would mean a rewrite of the old, and that doesn't guarantee a better new UI,,,
2. CCP stated they do NOT, I repeat NOT, want players to modify their UI, this is because it can give certain players with a modified UI an unfair advantage over unmodified UIs... And that is just not fair towards players that are excluded to using the mods or players that just aren't tech savie enough... It also opens a world of pain where people sell their mods for money etc, we just can't have that.
3. While yes, it is a mess, and with the two reasons above, there are quite a few things higher on the priority list...

CCP is still making improvements with each expansion though... But at this rate they're not actually gaining distance towards the latest developments in UIs... It still looks like a 90s interface, and I am afraid that even after 2010 we'll have to watch the dull fixed shapes we are used to now...

But hopefully I am wrong and they will introduce a major upgrade next year \o/ (I can hope right?)

Ban Doga
Posted - 2009.11.23 08:49:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Arkeladin


...

1) Have to recode the ENTIRE UI after redesign, with no guarantee of it being any more usable than the original until it hits SiSi. If they then have to change it, that means ANOTHER rewrite. And so on, and so on...it can grow quickly to a non-trivial task. Safe part of this method is that you don't have to worry about nasty user mods enabling things int he game that shouldn't be enabled.

...



You make this sound like it has to be trial-and-error: "Lets build something new and see what we get..."
This is really not the case. It's not like some magic process where you don't see any results until it's finished and you then either keep it or scrap it.

There are people out there who specialize in designing user interfaces, learning/knowing how people (generally) tend to do things, which ways are intuitive/easy/... and which are not.
Building user interfaces has underlying concepts, guide lines, and rules. And they can be taken into account right from the start.

sg3s
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.23 09:12:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: Arkeladin
...

1) Have to recode the ENTIRE UI after redesign, with no guarantee of it being any more usable than the original until it hits SiSi. If they then have to change it, that means ANOTHER rewrite. And so on, and so on...it can grow quickly to a non-trivial task. Safe part of this method is that you don't have to worry about nasty user mods enabling things int he game that shouldn't be enabled.

...



You make this sound like it has to be trial-and-error: "Lets build something new and see what we get..."
This is really not the case. It's not like some magic process where you don't see any results until it's finished and you then either keep it or scrap it.

There are people out there who specialize in designing user interfaces, learning/knowing how people (generally) tend to do things, which ways are intuitive/easy/... and which are not.
Building user interfaces has underlying concepts, guide lines, and rules. And they can be taken into account right from the start.


This is true, but, it's still a load of work, even so much that you'd need a rather large scrum team to accomplish it... Theres a lot of functions in eve ya know... and the UI has to connect to them all, and then considdering you probably need to radically change things to make is a good upgrade.... oh boy, and adaption problems for the older devs (you have to learn how to use the new stuff while it's not done yet :p) Rolling Eyes

Ban Doga
Posted - 2009.11.23 10:11:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: sg3s
Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: Arkeladin
...

1) Have to recode the ENTIRE UI after redesign, with no guarantee of it being any more usable than the original until it hits SiSi. If they then have to change it, that means ANOTHER rewrite. And so on, and so on...it can grow quickly to a non-trivial task. Safe part of this method is that you don't have to worry about nasty user mods enabling things int he game that shouldn't be enabled.

...



You make this sound like it has to be trial-and-error: "Lets build something new and see what we get..."
This is really not the case. It's not like some magic process where you don't see any results until it's finished and you then either keep it or scrap it.

There are people out there who specialize in designing user interfaces, learning/knowing how people (generally) tend to do things, which ways are intuitive/easy/... and which are not.
Building user interfaces has underlying concepts, guide lines, and rules. And they can be taken into account right from the start.


This is true, but, it's still a load of work, even so much that you'd need a rather large scrum team to accomplish it... Theres a lot of functions in eve ya know... and the UI has to connect to them all, and then considdering you probably need to radically change things to make is a good upgrade.... oh boy, and adaption problems for the older devs (you have to learn how to use the new stuff while it's not done yet :p) Rolling Eyes


I'm absolutely sure that this would be a huge task which could (and most probably would) introduce some new problems (bugs etc.).

I hope that the new mail system will be good (haven't found any time to check it out on SISI yet).

Actually this could a reasonable middle ground: update/upgrade the UI one topic at a time.
This will still leave the question what to do with parts that are not specific to a certain topic, eg operations blocking the whole UI or "transaction" handling (reprocessing a large amount of stacks will refresh the quote while it is being reprocessed - unnecessary strain), but it would improve it overall, I guess.

syphurous
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.11.23 13:25:00 - [21]
 

The person complaining about damage notifications, if you don't want to see them, turn them off,... ( yes its possible :P )

The new mail client is just like outlook, or similar clients.

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2009.11.23 13:44:00 - [22]
 

Whats the rotation of my Paladin?

Grump Bonedriver
Bad Attitudes Inc
Posted - 2009.11.23 14:08:00 - [23]
 

Thanks for the discussion so far. I hope to keep this constructive, knowing full well that the UI can be a cause of distress and ire for many (myself included as I play the game more and more).

On the question of stepping up as a UI Czar, I wanted to talk with Xaen first. I'll let you know of any plans after I have that discussion.

Having seen a very complex programming organization (aircraft software) handle user (pilot/navigator) software block change requests, I respect how difficult this UI issue can be. I'd love to see an entire expansion dedicated to an all-new UI rewrite; I'm just as aware how unlikely this is due to the need to keep many programmers active throughout the year who have nothing to do with the UI itself and cannot easily transition. That does not mean however, that the UI couldn't become CCP's top priority for serious change (the most-broken candidate) going forward.

I as well would much rather see a transition to a LUA-based UI or something similar rather than incremental fixes to an obsolete infrastructure. Many major MMOs have fought through this transition, and I think successfully. The pros are simply too many to be crippled by the cons. Those MMOs have distinct procedures in place for combatting bots, encouraging player-created UI mods, and even 3rd-party prohibitions on selling said mods. The standout ones use their players as their UI design team and incorporate the good mods into subsequent updates.

As one of the progressive MMO creators out there, CCP would be well served to take a hard look at their position on this issue, and that's what I want to discuss with Xaen. More to follow (I hope).

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.11.23 14:12:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 23/11/2009 14:17:12

Originally by: sg3s
Edited by: sg3s on 23/11/2009 07:56:10
Ok let me be clear on this... I AGREE that the current UI is a ****ing mess... But..

1. As stated above a new UI would mean a rewrite of the old, and that doesn't guarantee a better new UI,,,
2. CCP stated they do NOT, I repeat NOT, want players to modify their UI, this is because it can give certain players with a modified UI an unfair advantage over unmodified UIs... And that is just not fair towards players that are excluded to using the mods or players that just aren't tech savie enough... It also opens a world of pain where people sell their mods for money etc, we just can't have that.
3. While yes, it is a mess, and with the two reasons above, there are quite a few things higher on the priority list...

CCP is still making improvements with each expansion though... But at this rate they're not actually gaining distance towards the latest developments in UIs... It still looks like a 90s interface, and I am afraid that even after 2010 we'll have to watch the dull fixed shapes we are used to now...

But hopefully I am wrong and they will introduce a major upgrade next year \o/ (I can hope right?)


You're point mentioned in 2. is certainly a valid one and I'm far from competent to know how that would affect EVE (my script experience is from WOW, a totally different game). But scripting provides a substantial amount of benefits and any part can be easily switched off if its thought undesirable. The ability to change font, skins, and UI behaviour would be a big bonus for a start. Being able to lay out the market pages in a coherent manner that suits the player would be a great asset. Being able to put things such as the Compare button in a sensible place or have bespoke drop down lists would not give an unfair advantage. Changing the silly way the damage box is shown or the drones are stacked is one of many things that could be done. The benefits are almost too many to list. You can change the silly way the keyboard is mapped to avoid alt or ctrl, a method of keyboard input that went out years ago. You can colour code text for each channel thereby allowing one window for all chat. The list is endless.

I think CCP's stance is well out of date, there is many ways to be able to chance something without giving advantage. It makes me wonder how many Devs play other games because they should do and see how mods and LUA has evolved over the years.

You never pay for any scripts (mods) they are all free and done by player's themselves. You can use any or none, they are entirely optional.

In my opinion the UI is perhaps the most important thing not dealt with in EVE, the whole game is reliant on it being well designed.

I do think though that the new web interface may well replace the UI in many areas. I hope it can.

Nicski
Posted - 2009.11.23 14:38:00 - [25]
 

How the EVE UI interface was designed:
___________________________

Circa 2000, in a high level design meeting in Iceland:

"OK I've found the solution, there is this company XYZ Graphics who specialise in Graphic engines, they can do this for us, seen some of their work - superb, but a bit pricey - X - can we afford that?"

"Jesus - that much? Well maybe, but they had better deliver!"

___________________________

Circa 2001, in a high level design meeting in Iceland:

"OK the stuff is back (finally) from XYZ Graphics, these spaceship graphics are absolutely superb, but I'm a bit confused, how do you actually interface with them? Where is the gameplay?"

"Well that bit we have to do ourselves, they were just doing the graphics engine, the pretty spaceship pictures, look at the way you can spin them, the shadow and light effects, superb don't you think?"

"You are f***ing joking! I thought they were doing it all. I blew the whole UI budget on them, how the hell are we going to get the rest done?"

"Oh! er... bit of misunderstanding there I guess. OK what about that guy you hired to write the mission storylines - he is something to do with UI isn't he? Get him to do it, maybe buy him a UI book if necessary."

"*&^%$###$** ...so who writes the mission storylines then?

"FFS, give them to me, I'll get my kids to write them, how hard can it be?"

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.23 14:39:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Xaen on 23/11/2009 14:48:47
Originally by: Grump Bonedriver
Thanks for the discussion so far. I hope to keep this constructive, knowing full well that the UI can be a cause of distress and ire for many (myself included as I play the game more and more).

On the question of stepping up as a UI Czar, I wanted to talk with Xaen first. I'll let you know of any plans after I have that discussion.

Having seen a very complex programming organization (aircraft software) handle user (pilot/navigator) software block change requests, I respect how difficult this UI issue can be. I'd love to see an entire expansion dedicated to an all-new UI rewrite; I'm just as aware how unlikely this is due to the need to keep many programmers active throughout the year who have nothing to do with the UI itself and cannot easily transition. That does not mean however, that the UI couldn't become CCP's top priority for serious change (the most-broken candidate) going forward.

I as well would much rather see a transition to a LUA-based UI or something similar rather than incremental fixes to an obsolete infrastructure. Many major MMOs have fought through this transition, and I think successfully. The pros are simply too many to be crippled by the cons. Those MMOs have distinct procedures in place for combatting bots, encouraging player-created UI mods, and even 3rd-party prohibitions on selling said mods. The standout ones use their players as their UI design team and incorporate the good mods into subsequent updates.

As one of the progressive MMO creators out there, CCP would be well served to take a hard look at their position on this issue, and that's what I want to discuss with Xaen. More to follow (I hope).
Yes, I'm still around.

What's up?

Atropos Kahn
Caldari
Imminent Ruin
Posted - 2009.11.23 14:57:00 - [27]
 

There are only 2 complaints I can make with the current UI.

1. Moving Probes around.
2. The whole Corporation interface window. All that stuffs is foriegn to me.

I think EVE has the best UI compared to all the other MMO's I have seen though.


Grump Bonedriver
Bad Attitudes Inc
Posted - 2009.11.23 21:54:00 - [28]
 

Xaen, thanks for the efforts over the last several years in pointing out ways the UI can improve. I have several questions for you, and I'll ask them here instead of in-game so others might get some insight if they desire. I'd prefer if they could be filtered of any bitterness if possible. Thanks in advance.

1) Is there currently a dedicated CCP_XXXXXXXX person on the forums that handles UI discussions? So far I have seen limited blue responses over the years to many of the ideas advanced. Is there a name to search threads for?

2) Have there been any formal blue announcements in recent history governing the UI architecture? I'm talking about something similar to the details being discussed for the new IGB and the new EDEN mail app. Any broader UI roadmap that CCP has proposed going forward?

3) Are there other players besides you that have made a dedicated long-term effort to compile comprehensive, concrete UI ideas? A character named Haffrage seems to also have been a big player in this area in the past.

4) Is there a product such as an Excel spreadsheet or Access database that has been used to compile the user inputs into a comprehensive list, including priority and severity? Has CCP ever asked for one?

5) Is the CSM the mechanism that CCP envisions for all of the detailed EVE UI ideas to go through? So far I've not been impressed by its impact on the game, but I've only been around 6 months.

6) Can you offer a self-assessment of how effective you've been in charging the EVE UI windmill? Does it have enough impact to warrant the effort going forward should others choose to pick up the lance?

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.23 22:26:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Grump Bonedriver
Xaen, thanks for the efforts over the last several years in pointing out ways the UI can improve. I have several questions for you, and I'll ask them here instead of in-game so others might get some insight if they desire. I'd prefer if they could be filtered of any bitterness if possible. Thanks in advance.
Heh....My reputation precedes me...

Originally by: Grump Bonedriver
1) Is there currently a dedicated CCP_XXXXXXXX person on the forums that handles UI discussions? So far I have seen limited blue responses over the years to many of the ideas advanced. Is there a name to search threads for?
I don't believe so. I think t20 or whatever (yes, that *20) was their UI programmer, but my understanding is that he's no longer with the company.

Originally by: Grump Bonedriver
2) Have there been any formal blue announcements in recent history governing the UI architecture?
None that I'm aware of.

Originally by: Grump Bonedriver
I'm talking about something similar to the details being discussed for the new IGB and the new EDEN mail app. Any broader UI roadmap that CCP has proposed going forward?
The CSM members are all saying they're all in agreement and they keep bringing it up, and that CCP wants to do an overhaul from the ground up. I don't think there's been anything formally written down or discussed. It's an enormous project.

Originally by: Grump Bonedriver
3) Are there other players besides you that have made a dedicated long-term effort to compile comprehensive, concrete UI ideas? A character named Haffrage seems to also have been a big player in this area in the past.
None that I'm aware of, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. I was just one of the noisiest, most colorful, and most dedicated there for a while.

Originally by: Grump Bonedriver
4) Is there a product such as an Excel spreadsheet or Access database that has been used to compile the user inputs into a comprehensive list, including priority and severity? Has CCP ever asked for one?
What do you mean? Why would you use an office program to capture user input? I would think something working at the windows API layer would be more effective.

Originally by: Grump Bonedriver
5) Is the CSM the mechanism that CCP envisions for all of the detailed EVE UI ideas to go through? So far I've not been impressed by its impact on the game, but I've only been around 6 months.
I have no idea. It's very hard to get any sort of feedback from the other than. "We do listen." and "It's something we want to do." It's part of how I got so frustrated. Their (CCP's) heart seems to be in the right place, yet they appear to do very little. I've mostly accepted the fact that the UI is going to remain as it is, and attempt to enjoy the game in spite of it.

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.23 22:32:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Grump Bonedriver
6) Can you offer a self-assessment of how effective you've been in charging the EVE UI windmill? Does it have enough impact to warrant the effort going forward should others choose to pick up the lance?
Utterly ineffective. I ranted and raved for literally years and effected exactly zero changes. Then one day they decided to solicit feedback on the drone UI, read that forum thread and used feedback from it, exclusively. So everything I'd said about it up until then was completely pointless. The fact that I had precisely zero impact is a huge part of the reason I stopped trying. My efforts were futile.

That doesn't mean yours will be. By all means take up the standard if you wish, but for your own sake and sanity, don't get your hopes up. For all I know, just capturing keyboard input by default to the client instead of chat is a near-impossible task. There's no way to know since they're basically mute on the subject other than to say they'd like to improve it some day. It just doesn't seem to make it into the schedule, no matter how hard I tried.

Good luck. Queues music


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