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Chell Charon
Posted - 2009.11.30 10:39:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 30/11/2009 08:09:59
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 30/11/2009 08:09:37

That said, I must point out that the fact that this report was leaked to the IGS through you in particular does provide a good deal of circumstantial evidence that was previously lacking in No.Mercy's favor. I don't actually put any value in that sort of low quality evidence, but perhaps you should have waited to let Jaakin leak it?


Would you be kind enough to explain to the Summit as to how the fact that Quepec Power released information to -What to them- must seem like the only ones standing up for their rights [Anarchists standing in defence of an Empires subjects?], indicates any level of circumstantial evidence to No.Mercy's slanderous claims?

I mean, who could they have given access to it in order to present it to the Summit?
I will even add a clause to this one: "Without you proclaiming it to be evidence of missdeed and/or portraying the person so doing as an immidiate enemy of your Empire?"

I must admit it's been since I last visited Amarr space [Recent excursions excluded] that I read up concerning Amarr Rules and Regulations, so I'll have to ask you whether there has been some new additions to said rules and regulations. -Is it indeed required that a person accused of a crime (Noting we are not talking of religious crime) is required to prove themselves innocent?

A fair warning, should you answer "Yes" there may be a few more investigations in the near future for PIE. -No doubt all finding it very hard to exonerate the accused for the lack of evidence for or against.

As for the low quality of this particular piece of "Evidence" [I am certain there were lawyers, judges and Yellow media reporters spinning in their graves, when that particular gem hit this media], your own report states that THAT "Evidence" would be the best evidence of ANY missdeed in part of QP so far presented. -But you see there to be some factor of plausability to the unproven Claims of No.Mercy?

Pointing out these meltdowns of intelligent thought is easier than... Hmm... yes, as during my training period I did some mining, I would have to say this is easier than having a teacher fly your ship to the rock, target the rock and telling you to push a button to run One cycle of the lasers.

As a side note, does PIE actually have diplomats? -You know people who are professionals in this arena and actually posses more ability for spin control than evidenced by this particular failure?

As Star Fraction has Taken upon itself to protect the hard working, tax paying And no doubt religious [I'll not count it against them] members of Amarr citicenry from depradations of some members from the 24th Crusade, I feel the need to participate in this show of good will towards the Empire citicenry.

So I would like to request PIE to invest some assets into hiring a diplomat -Or even a used ship salesman from Jita. Because it just feels unsporting even to respond to these, what I must assume to be attempts of spin control... -Or would it be possible that some hostile agency has infiltrated PIE Inc. with double agents instructed to keep Anti PIE press supplied with these gems? [Lets not be too hasty claiming it to be impossible]

Actually here's some PR advise, see if you can get consultation from Jaakin before any decisions and public appearances. He has proven to be intelligent and apparently well versed in this particular form of conflict.

Hoping to see an improvement in your game.


Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 10:57:00 - [182]
 


The report states three things quite clearly.

1. No.Mercy claimed a link between QP and TFS/SF.
2. No.Mercy failed to provide evidence of a link.
3. As a result there is reasonable doubt to believe the validity of their claim.

As a result PIE has taken diplomatic and operational actions in relation to No.Mercy. We view the matter as resolved and the investigation closed unless new evidence presents itself.

Archbishop

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.11.30 15:34:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Archbishop

The report states three things quite clearly.

1. No.Mercy claimed a link between QP and TFS/SF.
2. No.Mercy failed to provide evidence of a link.
3. As a result there is reasonable doubt to believe the validity of their claim.

As a result PIE has taken diplomatic and operational actions in relation to No.Mercy. We view the matter as resolved and the investigation closed unless new evidence presents itself.

Archbishop




Are you condemning No.Mercy corportion for the attempt to extort ransom from Quebec Power. Yes or No?

Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar
Fates Assembly
The Final Stand.
Posted - 2009.11.30 16:07:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Archbishop

The report states three things quite clearly.

1. No.Mercy claimed a link between QP and TFS/SF.
2. No.Mercy failed to provide evidence of a link.
3. As a result there is reasonable doubt to believe the validity of their claim.





well yeah, and there is the visual evidence taken from their communications forum where they announce their plotting, this was shown long before Garst Tyrell made his obviously false claim that there was any link between us and Quebec Power.

I am glad to see a logical conclusion, and while I'm a bit of a fire brand and would prefer a loud denouncement as "heretic" for the once notable No.Mercy, I can understand the use of tact in regards to a group that does fight (thought they are worth much less now that their corp has broken apart on the wall of "Fortress" Kamela).

I’ll be interested to see if Merdaneth flies scout for a Garst operation in the near future, Garst is back from his travels in the frontier and trying the same old tricks…but with just a lot less pilots.

Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.01 20:30:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
That said, I must point out that the fact that this report was leaked to the IGS through you in particular does provide a good deal of circumstantial evidence that was previously lacking in No.Mercy's favor.


Quebec Power doesn't seem to know anything of the games we here play on the IGS. They were contacted by people who said that they'd make Quebec Power's troubles known, so they gave these people information. One of these people was, in fact, myself.

Quote:
I don't actually put any value in that sort of low quality evidence, but perhaps you should have waited to let Jakiin* leak it?


*Fixed

I could blame the fact that a clerical error meant my pilot license renewal was delayed and I needed to remain planetside during the critical point of all this, but in truth she would have gotten it first anyway. My contacts were Grotex and Excommunicator, the former who left the alliance a few days before the investigation was released and the latter who I suspect to be lying to me about odd things. Neither of them were in any position to help me with this.

Her contacts were the ones sent the information, so she gave the information.

I suppose I should give a quick word on my opinion of the report, seeing as this thing is the reason I've earned a very large amount of hatred from fairly influential figures.

This report states that because No.Mercy could not verify it's claims, PIE will not consider No.Mercy to be an ally. PIE has decided there isn't anything else they can do about it, so I suppose the next thing to do is see what the hell CVA is going to do about all this.

But someone else can do that. I'm tired of this ****.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.12.02 17:16:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Jakiin

I could blame the fact that a clerical error meant my pilot license renewal was delayed and I needed to remain planetside during the critical point of all this, but in truth she would have gotten it first anyway. My contacts were Grotex and Excommunicator, the former who left the alliance a few days before the investigation was released and the latter who I suspect to be lying to me about odd things. Neither of them were in any position to help me with this. Her contacts were the ones sent the information, so she gave the information. I suppose I should give a quick word on my opinion of the report, seeing as this thing is the reason I've earned a very large amount of hatred from fairly influential figures.


The main problem you have Jakiin is that nobody knows who you really are. You are accused of being an agent of The Star Fraction, an agent of the 24th Crusade, hell, I think its just about feasible you were an agent of PIE itself trying to defuse the scandal with a façade of false "independence". The truth is I don't have a clue who you work for really, but I have concluded you are not independent and no fitting vessel to appoint yourself an investigator of Amarrian wrongs. You have proven yourself too involved with the Amarrian cause and much too quick to anger and unwise behaviour. Hence I took matters out of your hands.

Quote:
This report states that because No.Mercy could not verify it's claims, PIE will not consider No.Mercy to be an ally. PIE has decided there isn't anything else they can do about it, so I suppose the next thing to do is see what the hell CVA is going to do about all this. But someone else can do that. I'm tired of this ****.


Well the No.Mercy matter is no longer a problem for PIE Inc. really. By removing Garst Tyrell from the shortlist for their Amarrian-of-the-year awards they have declared their position in relatively unequivocal terms. They have found no evidence to support the only possible excuse he had (Quebec / SF / TFS business arrangements) and have provided "secret" orders to their pilots not cooperate with No.Mercy fleets and give no appearance of supporting further piratical initiatives from the brigand and his corpmates.

I consider the whole business has completely vindicated the whistle-blowers from within No.Mercy who provided us all the story a month ago and who have by and large departed that corporation of thieves and ransomers for more productive shores.

It has also demonstrated that if you want to truth of a story you are far better to listen to the testimony of capsule pilots of long reputation and stalwart identity prepared to go and ask direct questions of those involved rather than sitting back and relying on the ambigious "interventions" of unknown capsuleers pretending a degree of intellectual capability and functional independence of thought that they so evidently do not possess.

Next time leave this sort of thing to the professionals "Jakiin".


Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.02 17:57:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
[1]The main problem you have Jakiin is that nobody knows who you really are. You are accused of being an agent of The Star Fraction, an agent of the 24th Crusade, hell, I think its just about feasible you were an agent of PIE itself trying to defuse the scandal with a façade of false "independence". [2]The truth is I don't have a clue who you work for really, but I have concluded you are not independent and no fitting vessel to appoint yourself an investigator of Amarrian wrongs. You have proven yourself too involved with the Amarrian cause and much too quick to anger and unwise behaviour. Hence I took matters out of your hands.


[1]Wait, this is actually something I agree with, to some extent. What's happening? Where's the propaganda spin?

[2] Found it!

So you took matters out of my hands because I was too biased? That's... That's hilarious really. Typical of you, though, but still hilarious.

Keep in mind that not everyone who disagrees with you is working for your enemies. Free minds are just as able to find you ridiculous as any other.

Quote:
It has also demonstrated that if you want to truth of a story you are far better to listen to the testimony of capsule pilots of long reputation and stalwart identity prepared to go and ask direct questions of those involved rather than sitting back and relying on the ambigious "interventions" of unknown capsuleers pretending a degree of intellectual capability and functional independence of thought that they so evidently do not possess.

Next time leave this sort of thing to the professionals "Jakiin".



Identity and reputation do not equate to intelligence or investigative ability. You are no professional and the fact that you've been ranting and raving for years makes you no more intelligent than myself, it just means you've stopped considering the fact your rantings might be wrong.

Of course this isn't true for many or perhaps most of the seniors here, who have indeed become wiser for their time spent. Time does offer the possibility of becoming better at something, but it does not automatically mean one has become better. What you say is that since you have spent more time here you must be my better, it is an absolute. How very narrow-minded of you.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.12.02 18:38:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: Jakiin

So you took matters out of my hands because I was too biased? That's... That's hilarious really. Typical of you, though, but still hilarious.



You misunderstand. I took matters out of your hands because your bias was dishonestly unclear. A fine point but something you should ponder when deciding your next steps in your capsule-pilot career.

I'd prefer an enemy with courage of their convictions and clear identity than a gutless snake in grass pretending to be something he is not any day of the week. And ironically, I think most commentators on the IGS would probably agree.

If you are an Amarrian nationalist be an Amarrian nationalist and do give up any pretense of logical discretion and ethical integrity, all this slithering around the issues without declaring yourself appropriately wins nobody of note to your cause.

Chell Charon
Posted - 2009.12.02 18:45:00 - [189]
 

--Personal Note--

"Old age signifies only one thing, that you are old."

"Wisdom does not come from years."

"For change and hope, look to the children."

"To gain a reputation, do something."

Just to so nobody misinterprets, you do not need to be old or indeed famous to do.

Just being long enough, will result in a reputation and being old.

There is no inherent value in age.

"Being a fool, is no better when your an old fool."

--End of Personal Note--

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.12.02 18:51:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Chell Charon
--Personal Note--

"Old age signifies only one thing, that you are old."



Quite. And such a position is evident in the Star Fraction's recruitment practices actually. We'd rather take on new people with clear agendas and forthright views than ambiguous veterans afraid to stand up and be counted. My point to Jakiin boils down to this. Nobody knows anything about "Jakiin" the man and he was claiming to be somebody we should trust. But "trust" can only be won by actions not words alone on the IGS.



Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.02 19:02:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
You misunderstand. I took matters out of your hands because your bias was dishonestly unclear. A fine point but something you should ponder when deciding your next steps in your capsule-pilot career.

I'd prefer an enemy with courage of their convictions and clear identity than a gutless snake in grass pretending to be something he is not any day of the week. And ironically, I think most commentators on the IGS would probably agree.

If you are an Amarrian nationalist be an Amarrian nationalist and do give up any pretense of logical discretion and ethical integrity, all this slithering around the issues without declaring yourself appropriately wins nobody of note to your cause.



I never said that I was not loyal to the Faith. I am, but that does not exclude me from questioning its flaws. I know you refuse to believe this, but not all loyalists are blind to the flaws of what they're loyal to.

As a side note, I'm no nationalist of the Empire, I am a nationalist of the Kingdom. Not that it makes much difference but when you're accusing me of all the things you accuse nationalists of being I'd prefer it if you at least used the right nation.

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.12.02 20:18:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Jakiin

As a side note, I'm no nationalist of the Empire, I am a nationalist of the Kingdom. Not that it makes much difference but when you're accusing me of all the things you accuse nationalists of being I'd prefer it if you at least used the right nation.


Given fairly recent political developments vis a vis the Kingdom and Empire this is a moot point unless you advocate the Kingdom return to formal secession from the Empire. If the latter, interesting and you would then be making a fair point but it certainly won't endear you to Empire loyalists or, I would have thought, Privy Councillor Khanid himself.

The Cosmopolite


Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.02 20:42:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: The Cosmopolite

Given fairly recent political developments vis a vis the Kingdom and Empire this is a moot point unless you advocate the Kingdom return to formal secession from the Empire. If the latter, interesting and you would then be making a fair point but it certainly won't endear you to Empire loyalists or, I would have thought, Privy Councillor Khanid himself.


King Khanid the Second does indeed have a seat on the privy council, and the Kingdom and Empire have indeed assigned ourselves very close military ties, however at the end of the day we are two entirely seperate entities. The Kingdom operates its own Navy and has its own government completely seperate from the Imperials, not to mention the cultural differences.

We are close allies, that is all.

Chell Charon
Posted - 2009.12.02 21:00:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Jakiin
Originally by: The Cosmopolite

Given fairly recent political developments vis a vis the Kingdom and Empire this is a moot point unless you advocate the Kingdom return to formal secession from the Empire. If the latter, interesting and you would then be making a fair point but it certainly won't endear you to Empire loyalists or, I would have thought, Privy Councillor Khanid himself.


King Khanid the Second does indeed have a seat on the privy council, and the Kingdom and Empire have indeed assigned ourselves very close military ties, however at the end of the day we are two entirely seperate entities. The Kingdom operates its own Navy and has its own government completely seperate from the Imperials, not to mention the cultural differences.

We are close allies, that is all.


Jakiin, what would the pacifistic reclamation look like? Any chance Khanid kingdom -with it's current policies- could be something worth studying to understand this?
a slow assimilation to the Amar...

Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.02 21:08:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Chell Charon
Originally by: Jakiin
Originally by: The Cosmopolite

Given fairly recent political developments vis a vis the Kingdom and Empire this is a moot point unless you advocate the Kingdom return to formal secession from the Empire. If the latter, interesting and you would then be making a fair point but it certainly won't endear you to Empire loyalists or, I would have thought, Privy Councillor Khanid himself.


King Khanid the Second does indeed have a seat on the privy council, and the Kingdom and Empire have indeed assigned ourselves very close military ties, however at the end of the day we are two entirely seperate entities. The Kingdom operates its own Navy and has its own government completely seperate from the Imperials, not to mention the cultural differences.

We are close allies, that is all.


Jakiin, what would the pacifistic reclamation look like? Any chance Khanid kingdom -with it's current policies- could be something worth studying to understand this?
a slow assimilation to the Amar...


Our other discussion would be a better place to discuss this. I will not be able to respond for some time however as my mobile unit is running low. Feel free to think on the questions regarding the pacifist Reclaiming you wish answered.

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.12.02 21:10:00 - [196]
 

Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 02/12/2009 21:17:11

I myself would be inclined to view the designation 'Kingdom of the Empire' as meaning something more than mere allied status. I am also inclined to think the notion that the Empire and Kingdom are still 'entirely separate entities' does violence to the meaning of the phrase but you're perfectly entitled to your view.

I do believe your opinion in this matter is somewhat at variance with the settlement reached between the renegade heir Khanid and the capsuleer she-heretic Sarum but then you don't seem too worried about being at variance with 'authorized' views and I can hardly rebuke you for such an admirable attribute as your refusal to conform.

The Cosmopolite

Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.02 23:35:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: Jakiin on 03/12/2009 00:02:16
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
I myself would be inclined to view the designation 'Kingdom of the Empire' as meaning something more than mere allied status. I am also inclined to think the notion that the Empire and Kingdom are still 'entirely separate entities' does violence to the meaning of the phrase but you're perfectly entitled to your view.


Apparently I missed something, please point me to the article which used the phrase "Kingdom of the Empire" so I can peruse it. Honestly I'm surprised and somewhat embarrassed that I've missed this, I like to keep track.

Originally by: Chell Charon
Jakiin, what would the pacifistic reclamation look like? Any chance Khanid kingdom -with it's current policies- could be something worth studying to understand this?
a slow assimilation to the Amar...


Apparently Mr. Kane doesn't feel our argument was relevant to the purpose of his thread, and since this thread was started by me I'm allowed to derail it as much as I want, so I suppose I'll answer your question where it was asked.

As my signature sates i am a Pacifist Reclaimer. This does not mean I am a Pacifist (God Almighty, no) but instead means that I believe the Reclaiming can best be accomplished peacefully. This is a rather broad term and each Pacifist Reclaimer will likely have different views on why a more typical Reclaiming is unsuitable, but how we wish to accomplish our goals is more or less the same: Rather than burning the heretics and enslaving their children, we wish to convert the cluster through words and thought.

Personally, I feel this way more out of practicality than any moral issues. The Amarr Territories combined still likely hold more military might than any other single entity, but if we set out on the violent Reclaimings of old the entities will band together for self-preservation and strike us down. Since we can't force them to obey us we must convince them to follow us. I feel that virtually any means is acceptable for this task.

For instance I believe (As you well know) that slavery is a valid method of conversion. But I would support a deal in which every single Matari slave was freed in exchange for the Republic government declaring Amarr the state religion.

The Pacifist Reclaiming is, in short, conversion through diplomacy.

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.12.03 02:52:00 - [198]
 

Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 03/12/2009 03:04:27

I am always pleased to aid a seeker after information: article reporting status of "Kingdom of the Empire" conferred on Khanid Kingdom.

Now, the article also says that the Khanid Kingdom will remain an 'independent nation' with a pact of 'mutual protection' but I see this as something of a convenient fiction or perhaps simply a rather inexact expression of what is better said by the she-heretic Sarum herself: "It is God's divine command that we today confirm the status of Kingdom of the Empire on the territories our noble and majestic brother shall continue to rule in the name of Holy Amarr."

The message of this statement, together with all the talk of 'Holy Amarr' united once more and the Khanid Kingdom and people back in the 'embrace' of said 'Holy Amarr', could not be clearer for those who understand what is meant by 'Holy Amarr' – and for all that I am a heretic undoubted, I do retain the grasp of these things that a classical Amarrian education provided me with. When one considers that the seat of House Khanid on the Privy Council of the Amarr Empire is given in perpetuity the message is only underlined the more. Notions of the two polities remaining 'entirely separate' must be dismissed as simply wrong in the face of this.

Indeed, the apparently straightforward concept of 'Khanid nationalism', and with it Amarrian or Imperial 'nationalism', was only just plausible during the period we can perhaps look back on now as the 'Khanid Schism'. My own view is that the concept of 'nationalism' is rather misapplied to the Amarr Empire and the Khanid Kingdom. It is a modern concept, applicable to entities such as the Caldari State (the influence of which may well have fostered a form of nationalist sentiment in some Khanid minds) and the Gallente Federation, but not, I think, with any safety to theocratic empires such as as we see in 'Holy Amarr'.

The spiritual reunification of the Amarrian states we see expressed in the new alignment is by far more significant than the particular temporal arrangements that attend it. I find this sad, of course, as the continuing and self-serving grip of evil old theocrats on the destinies of some truly great peoples is much to be deplored.

Mind you, I do find it most amusing that to achieve the much trumpeted unity of 'Holy Amarr' it took a concordat between a renegade heir, essentially a thief and traitor of the blackest dye styling himself a 'king', and a religious criminal, guilty of numerous infractions of sacred law, who suborned and bullied her way to supreme power.

To my mind the manner in which this 'unity' was achieved sows seeds the fruits of which I very much look forward to seeing harvested.

The Cosmopolite

Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.03 08:45:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: The Cosmopolite
I am always pleased to aid a seeker after information: article reporting status of "Kingdom of the Empire" conferred on Khanid Kingdom.


Ah yes, I remember reading this. I simply didn't remember it for the 'Kingdom of Amarr' comment because I didn't read into it the way you did. I believe that in this case the term 'Kingdom of the Empire' denotes not who the Kingdom belongs to but where the Kingdom comes from.

Quote:
Now, the article also says that the Khanid Kingdom will remain an 'independent nation' with a pact of 'mutual protection' but I see this as something of a convenient fiction...


I find this theory to be quite convenient for the Star Fraction.

Quote:
...or perhaps simply a rather inexact expression of what is better said by the she-heretic Sarum herself: [2]"It is God's divine command that we today confirm the status of Kingdom of the Empire on the territories our noble and majestic brother shall continue to rule in the name of Holy Amarr."

The message of this statement, together with all the talk of 'Holy Amarr' united once more and the Khanid Kingdom and people back in the 'embrace' of said 'Holy Amarr', could not be clearer for those who understand what is meant by 'Holy Amarr' – and for all that I am a heretic undoubted, I do retain the grasp of these things that a classical Amarrian education provided me with.


Of course. Amarr refers most usually to a faith, and Holy, well, that's pretty clear in every language. When one simply says 'Holy Amarr' without adding anything to it we can expect to believe that the speaker refers to the Faith, and I myself hae multiple times pointed out that the Kingdom is one of the groups which devotes itself to the Faith. In fact my pet name for this group is 'The Amarr Territories'.

Quote:
When one considers that the seat of House Khanid on the Privy Council of the Amarr Empire is given in perpetuity the message is only underlined the more. Notions of the two polities remaining 'entirely separate' must be dismissed as simply wrong in the face of this.


Perhaps not entirely seperate, I may have misspoke. The King does now, after all, have a say in the policies of the Empire. The Empire, however, still lacks any control over the Kingdom beyond that a large neighbor usually has over a smaller one.

(Cont.)

Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.03 09:01:00 - [200]
 

Quote:
Indeed, the apparently straightforward concept of 'Khanid nationalism', and with it Amarrian or Imperial 'nationalism', was only just plausible during the period we can perhaps look back on now as the 'Khanid Schism'.


A nation is able to ally with another nation without that nation losing its sense of nationalism. There have been countless examples throughout history of this.

Quote:
My own view is that the concept of 'nationalism' is rather misapplied to the Amarr Empire and the Khanid Kingdom. It is a modern concept, applicable to entities such as the Caldari State (the influence of which may well have fostered a form of nationalist sentiment in some Khanid minds) and the Gallente Federation, but not, I think, with any safety to theocratic empires such as as we see in 'Holy Amarr'.


There are many within the Empire who believe that the Empire is the foremost authority on Amarr. Is this pride not nationalism?

However even if it is not, which one could indeed argue, I will say that the Kingdom does have a far more 'typical' nationalist vent than the Empire. The servants of the Empire and subjects of the Kingdom have different loyalties.

To the servants, the list goes: God, Empress, Empire.
To the subjects, the list goes: God, Kingdom, King.

When you consider that our respective heads of state are generally referred to as the final earthly word in God's will, the difference becomes more clear. The Caldari have changed our culture to an extent that a physical reunification with the Empire at this point would be quite difficult.

Quote:
The spiritual reunification of the Amarrian states we see expressed in the new alignment is by far more significant than the particular temporal arrangements that attend it. I find this sad, of course, as the continuing and self-serving grip of evil old theocrats on the destinies of some truly great peoples is much to be deplored.


As the Empress said

Originally by: Empress Jamyl Sarum
Let it also be known, by the people, by our friends, and, yes, by our enemies, that today Holy Amarr stands united in our faith and our holy mission. In the name of God, we declare this and shall see it done.


It is as you say a spiritual reunification. The Amarr Territories now stand united, and as such our strength is multiplied. Much in the same way that the Republic and Federation are united.

Oh I love the fact you've taken to calling Amarr leaders 'Evil'. Isn't that generally against SF's stance on imperialism?

Quote:
Mind you, I do find it most amusing that to achieve the much trumpeted unity of 'Holy Amarr' it took a concordat between a renegade heir, essentially a thief and traitor of the blackest dye styling himself a 'king', and a religious criminal, guilty of numerous infractions of sacred law, who suborned and bullied her way to supreme power.


I will not argue your views on this, you are obviously far too set in you judgments to consider the possibility of being wrong.

Quote:
To my mind the manner in which this 'unity' was achieved sows seeds the fruits of which I very much look forward to seeing harvested.


So it's 'unity' now, is it? It is a thing to be suspicious of? Did you not just say that there was no real difference between the Kingdom and the Empire?

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.12.03 15:02:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 03/12/2009 15:23:37

The matter of the new alignment is capable of interpretation, that much is certainly so. I have my interpretation, based on my reading of the language used by the she-heretic Sarum and the renegade Khanid; you have your interpretation, based on your own reading of the matter. We differ somewhat as to the implications for the Kingdom and Empire. The comparison of this alignment with the alliance between the Republic and the Federation is really rather silly and I think on reflection you will realise this.

I'm not sure why it is necessary to claim that I am incapable of envisaging myself as wrong. I'm perfectly willing to entertain such a possibility. I admit that I don't find your interpretation compelling enough to alter my own view in this case. However, I may very well turn out to be wrong and will duly revise my opinion if evidence in this regard comes to light.

On the question of Khanid nationalism, which you appear to identify yourself with in a sense that does indeed make sense (ie. nationalism of the Khanid people), I fear you and other nationalists of the Khanid race may have some uncomfortable decisions to deal with in future years. During the Khanid Schism, it was convenient and eminently practical for King Khanid to allow an identification of the interests of the Khanid Kingdom with the interests of a form of Khanid nationalism among the people. It served to strengthen the political cohesion of the Kingdom and bind the people to him all the closer. But you must never forget that Khanid himself is a True Amarr of the noblest blood. He has never abandoned his conception of himself as a true heir to the Imperial Throne and hardly abandoned his ambition to become emperor of 'Holy Amarr'.

The political realignment of the Kingdom as a highly-autonomous territory of the Empire, for that is indeed my interpretation of the true meaning of the concordat, has served to bring Khanid back into the Privy Council and won him retrospective approval for his actions by Jamyl Sarum, who cares not one jot for religious propriety or imperial protocol. In essence, he has handsomely won this round of the long, long game he has been playing since he decided his own will for power and survival outweighed compliance with a senseless ritual and his oaths of loyalty. Given this, I think it is highly questionable whether any Khanid nationalism which emphasises the independence of the Khanid people from the Amarr Empire will for much longer be viewed as desirable or useful by Privy Councillor Khanid. In that connection, I would say that any Khanid nationalism surely must emphasise the independence of the Khanid people in their own state or it hardly qualifies as 'nationalism' at all.

The Amarr Empire itself is not a nationalist enterprise because the primary identification of citizen with the state is religious before it is national. Indeed, the project of Reclaiming is the very antithesis of a nationalist project. It seeks to forcefully identify all peoples with the state through one shared religion that stands above questions of national origin. (The issue of True Amarr supremacy is religious before it is nationalist, and indeed class- or caste-based before it is nationalist.) I really think such Khanid nationalists as may exist need to wake up this reality rather quickly (and I may say that the Caldari would also do well not to continue blithely ignoring it).

Finally, I really do not see what the use of the word 'evil' has to do with being anti-imperialist or not. It is a term denoting that something or someone is morally wrong and not, I would hope you realise, the exclusive preserve of those who believe in notions of imaginery entities whispering instructions into the ears of their rulers. Contrary to mythology and disinformation, we anarchists are moral beings and perfectly able to use the word 'evil' without any difficulty whatever. For example, slavery is evil as it is the slow murder of a sentient being.

The Cosmopolite

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.03 15:14:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 03/12/2009 15:26:03


Quote:


Ah yes, I remember reading this. I simply didn't remember it for the 'Kingdom of Amarr' comment because I didn't read into it the way you did. I believe that in this case the term 'Kingdom of the Empire' denotes not who the Kingdom belongs to but where the Kingdom comes from.



Why, by all that is holy, would the Empire confer a title that says something so inane on a formerly schismatic state?

The title of Kingdom of the Empire means that the Khanid Kingdom is now once more an official part of the Empire of the Amarrian Faith. No more, no less.

I really cannot imagine why you would think otherwise. Khanid is on the privy council and the Kingdom is once more under the greater aegis of God's Empire.

This is good, there is no reason to be worrying about relations with those who are our natural allies when we have Shakor and the Gallente waving their "Khumaaks" at us.

Quote:

The Amarr Empire itself is not a nationalist enterprise because the primary identification of citizen with the state is religious before it is national. Indeed, the project of Reclaiming is the very antithesis of a nationalist project. It seeks to forcefully identify all peoples with the state through one shared religion that stands above questions of national origin. (The issue of True Amarr supremacy is religious before it is nationalist, and indeed class- or caste-based before it is nationalist.) I really think such Khanid nationalists as may exist need to wake up this reality rather quickly (and I may say that the Caldari would also do well not to continue blithely ignoring it).


This is not quite accurate. Amarr is both a nationalistic and religious entity. The Empress is both the ruler of the Amarrian people and the ruler of the Amarrian faith. The first is entirely subsumed by the latter, but it is still present.

That said, the idea of Khanid Nationalism as a status of being pro-Khanid Kingdom is patently absurd as the Khanid Kingdom is ruled by Amarrians and run mostly by Amarrians, and always has been. And, furthermore, the vast majority of Khanid do not live in the Kingdom.

As usual, Gallente concepts such as Nationality fall vastly short when dealing with Amarr. For some reason, the reality of something as vast as the Empire of God's People always tends to defy attempts to categorize it into a neat box.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2009.12.03 15:27:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Jamyl Sarum, who cares not one jot for religious propriety or imperial protocol.


Typical slippery thinking from a slippery Fractionist who can do naught but imprint his own devious and fluid morality upon his understanding of the motivation of others. The Empress has done nothing except do God's will in securing the glorious future of the Empire. All she has ignored are corrupt and self-serving rules piled lie upon lie by minor religious bureaucrats to serve their own selfish needs.

But of course Fractionists love to hide and skulk about beneath rules they can abuse and shelter from harm under.

Can you not see that the Empress knew what threat lay in the future and knew the Empire needed a strong leader? That SHE risked the precious blood line so that SHE could protect us? Thanks to HER the day is coming that all humanity will be united under the rule of God's apointed people.

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.12.03 15:35:00 - [204]
 

Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 03/12/2009 15:40:34

I suspect we are all here dealing with fine distinctions and interpretations. Perhaps I would have been better to say that the Amarr Empire is not strictly a nationalist enterprise. It is certainly an error to analyse it as if it is.

I do agree with the view that the terminology of nationalism is inexact and too readily leads to confusions when applied to entities such as the Khanid Kingdom and Amarr Empire.

The Cosmopolite

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.03 15:47:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 03/12/2009 15:40:34

I suspect we are all here dealing with fine distinctions and interpretations. Perhaps I would have been better to say that the Amarr Empire is not strictly a nationalist enterprise. It is certainly an error to analyse it as if it is.

I do agree with the view that the terminology of nationalism is inexact and too readily leads to confusions when applied to entities such as the Khanid Kingdom and Amarr Empire.

The Cosmopolite



For once, you say something I can agree with entirely.

Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.03 18:45:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Jakiin on 03/12/2009 18:55:16
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
The comparison of this alignment with the alliance between the Republic and the Federation is really rather silly and I think on reflection you will realise this.


I suppose you're correct, I can't think of any current allies which would make good examples. Perhaps the Thukker Tribe and Republic, though I'm not familiar enough with that situation to make a safe comparison.

Quote:
I'm not sure why it is necessary to claim that I am incapable of envisaging myself as wrong. I'm perfectly willing to entertain such a possibility. I admit that I don't find your interpretation compelling enough to alter my own view in this case. However, I may very well turn out to be wrong and will duly revise my opinion if evidence in this regard comes to light.


Not in general, no, but considering how often you refer to my King and the Empress as heretics, renegades, etc., I doubt you'd really be willing to admit them having both come legitimately to power short of the Lord himself stepping down and letting you know He was cool with all of it.

Quote:
On the question of Khanid nationalism, which you appear to identify yourself with in a sense that does indeed make sense (ie. nationalism of the Khanid people), I fear you and other nationalists of the Khanid race may have some uncomfortable decisions to deal with in future years. During the Khanid Schism, it was convenient and eminently practical for King Khanid to allow an identification of the interests of the Khanid Kingdom with the interests of a form of Khanid nationalism among the people. It served to strengthen the political cohesion of the Kingdom and bind the people to him all the closer. But you must never forget that Khanid himself is a True Amarr of the noblest blood. He has never abandoned his conception of himself as a true heir to the Imperial Throne and hardly abandoned his ambition to become emperor of 'Holy Amarr'.


Once again you use 'Holy Amarr' to refer to the 'Holy Empire of Amarr'. I find it strange you keep insisting on using it when the person you're debating with disagrees with this interpretation, it's counter conductive to us reaching any sort of point of agreement.

I see a flaw in your logic, however. First off, Khanid had very little to do with increasing the feelings of the people. Rather the Holders which traded with the State came to, over the centuries, respect the patriotism that the Caldari displayed and passed this on to their subjects. And while this did bind us closer to the Kingdom, by comparison it weakened his hold on us: If the King wishes to rejoin the Empire as a Heir rather than simply sit as an ally on the Council, then he will need to formally reunite the Kingdom with the Empire. I think that considering my position in Khanid society it's fair to say the we Holders would not be pleased with the prospect. Or the King.

Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.03 18:54:00 - [207]
 

Edited by: Jakiin on 03/12/2009 18:56:02
Quote:
[1]The political realignment of the Kingdom as a highly-autonomous territory of the Empire, for that is indeed my interpretation of the true meaning of the concordat, has served to bring Khanid back into the Privy Council and won him retrospective approval for his actions by Jamyl Sarum, who cares not one jot for religious propriety or imperial protocol. [2]In essence, he has handsomely won this round of the long, long game he has been playing since he decided his own will for power and survival outweighed compliance with a senseless ritual and his oaths of loyalty. [3]Given this, I think it is highly questionable whether any Khanid nationalism which emphasises the independence of the Khanid people from the Amarr Empire will for much longer be viewed as desirable or useful by Privy Councillor Khanid. In that connection, I would say that any Khanid nationalism surely must emphasise the independence of the Khanid people in their own state or it hardly qualifies as 'nationalism' at all.


[1] If one agrees to the interpretation, this is agreeable. If one does not, then it does nothing to convince them to. The seat on the Privy Council signified that the Empress recognizes the Kingdom as a valuable nation of God, and that she valued our King's word. Nothing less.

[2] King Khanid has more power than any other Heir. The Kingdom's fleet is likely the third most technologically developed in the Cluster, we have massive trade ties with an ever-hungry Empire and an ever-selling State, and he does not need to worry about the political machinations of other Heirs. If he were only to desire power he has far more now than he would as an Heir.

Additionally the ritual is not senseless, it ensures that the new Emperor or Empress does not need to worry about political rivals seeking to destroy her at every turn. This is not opinion, it is fact: Though you may not agree with the sense that it uses, it does indeed possess sense and is therefor not senseless.

Quote:
[1]The Amarr Empire itself is not a nationalist enterprise because the primary identification of citizen with the state is religious before it is national. Indeed, the project of Reclaiming is the very antithesis of a nationalist project. It seeks to forcefully identify all peoples with the state through one shared religion that stands above questions of national origin. (The issue of True Amarr supremacy is religious before it is nationalist, and indeed class- or caste-based before it is nationalist.) [2] I really think such Khanid nationalists as may exist need to wake up this reality rather quickly (and I may say that the Caldari would also do well not to continue blithely ignoring it).


[1] Agreed

[2] We've both been aware of some time. You'll notice our battleships.

Quote:
Finally, I really do not see what the use of the word 'evil' has to do with being anti-imperialist or not. It is a term denoting that something or someone is morally wrong and not, I would hope you realise, the exclusive preserve of those who believe in notions of imaginery entities whispering instructions into the ears of their rulers. Contrary to mythology and disinformation, we anarchists are moral beings and perfectly able to use the word 'evil' without any difficulty whatever. For example, slavery is evil as it is the slow murder of a sentient being.


Cultural Imperialism, the belief that your morals are inherently superior to someone else's and should supplant them. Generally something that the Fraction seems to attribute to the Federation and the Empire, but I suppose that star Fraction has always been bold enough to throw stones from their glass houses.

Jakiin
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:12:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Why, by all that is holy, would the Empire confer a title that says something so inane on a formerly schismatic state?


Because previous to this the Empire's stance towards the Kingdom was primarily that we were a bunch of Godless heathens and Heretics that should be purged just as soon as it's convenient. By acknowledging that we are a part of the 'Holy Amarr' (Which seems to be a synonym for 'Amarr Territories', or rather the reverse) the Empress has ended this pointless little feud.

Quote:
I really cannot imagine why you would think otherwise. Khanid is on the privy council and the Kingdom is once more under the greater aegis of God's Empire.


You must remember that the Amarr Territories are not composed entirely of the Empire and its colonies. The Delivered Systems, the children that PIE brought into the Flock, are yet to be formally recognized as a part of the Empire. While you may believe that the Empire has a monopoly on the Faith, that is a mistake.

Quote:
The title of Kingdom of the Empire means that the Khanid Kingdom is now once more an official part of the Empire of the Amarrian Faith. No more, no less.


Of course, the empire that the Faith has created the Kingdom has always been a part of. The Amarr Empire, that which has a similar title but refers to the political entity headed by Jamyl Sarum? No, I don't think so.

Quote:
This is good, there is no reason to be worrying about relations with those who are our natural allies when we have Shakor and the Gallente waving their "Khumaaks" at us.


We are allies, bound by God, something which shall not be broken by politics. But we have not been a part of the Amarr Empire for over three hundred years.

Zverofaust
Gallente
Ascetic Virtues
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:20:00 - [209]
 

Quote:
Finally, I really do not see what the use of the word 'evil' has to do with being anti-imperialist or not. It is a term denoting that something or someone is morally wrong and not, I would hope you realise, the exclusive preserve of those who believe in notions of imaginery entities whispering instructions into the ears of their rulers. Contrary to mythology and disinformation, we anarchists are moral beings and perfectly able to use the word 'evil' without any difficulty whatever. For example, slavery is evil as it is the slow murder of a sentient being.


As someone once told me, the word "evil" has no place in objective discussion; as a moral ambiguity it is little more than a subjective and emotionally-corrupted term applied on a whim. The belief in its existence, the existence of some immaterial machination that drives men to commit unfathomable acts, is hardly better than the belief in mythological deities and the invention of fiction. As an anarchist -- that is, as someone who claims to believe in the infallability of the right to self-determination and who fervently believes in the right of all men to live free from oppression, I would think you would be more careful in throwing about vague subjective terms, let alone claiming your absolute acceptance of them. "Evil" is a thing of fairytales told to children as bedtime stories (and to the pious); it is an evocation of basic emotion, an attempt to manipulate man's instinct for fear so that he may be used for another's goals, just as the Amarr state uses it to ensure the servitude of their population through religious terms.

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.12.03 23:45:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Zverofaust

As someone once told me, the word "evil" has no place in objective discussion; as a moral ambiguity it is little more than a subjective and emotionally-corrupted term applied on a whim. The belief in its existence, the existence of some immaterial machination that drives men to commit unfathomable acts, is hardly better than the belief in mythological deities and the invention of fiction. As an anarchist -- that is, as someone who claims to believe in the infallability of the right to self-determination and who fervently believes in the right of all men to live free from oppression, I would think you would be more careful in throwing about vague subjective terms, let alone claiming your absolute acceptance of them. "Evil" is a thing of fairytales told to children as bedtime stories (and to the pious); it is an evocation of basic emotion, an attempt to manipulate man's instinct for fear so that he may be used for another's goals, just as the Amarr state uses it to ensure the servitude of their population through religious terms.


I am afraid that I entirely disagree with you.

The term 'evil' is not an exclusively religious term, it does not necessarily imply a separately existing or abstracted evil entity, and it is quite capable of use clearly, precisely and unemotionally.

It is not a vague term: that which is evil is morally wrong. That is the simple and plain meaning of the word. Indeed, historically it appears to me evident that the concept of evil as a human thing – that is, morally wrong actions and their conseqences – is entirely independent of notions, in my view cooked up later on, of abstracted evil or evil beings.

You can abandon the concept of something being morally wrong to the religious and those who believe in hobgoblins if you wish. I choose not to do so. The word that describes the concept of morally wrong actions and their consequences is 'evil' and I intend to continue using it.

I repeat: slavery is evil and to engage in the practise of slavery is to engage in evil. Evil because it is morally wrong to imprison another and to use his life solely for the enrichment of those that hold him. Evil because the unjustified use of violence that is the very essence of the practise of slavery is morally wrong in itself.

I would think you might agree.

As for the idea that recognising and identifying an evil is 'cultural imperialism': sheerest sophistry. The day it becomes imperialism to see a wrong and name it so is the day the entire human species becomes unavoidably imperialist. The notion is a nonsense.

As a very wise anarchist once said: "I have repeated a thousand times that I believe that not to actively resist evil, adequately and by every possible way is, in theory absurd, because it is in contradiction with the aim of avoiding and destroying evil, and in practice immoral."

I entirely agree with him.

The Cosmopolite


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