open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked Minmatar Ship fix - Lets throw away "throw away" bonuses.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:53:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/11/2009 10:44:01
Third time lucky....

Issue.
Many Minmatar ships suffer from the affliction of nothing bonuses. Unlike the other races which have clearly focused concepts and bonuses that match, Minmatar ships seem to have been given a hodgepodge of bonuses that are incongruous with the nature of the Race, and are practically redundant given the alternatives. For instance, active tanking bonus to the race with the poorest capacitor and cargo bay sizes, double damage bonuses where in reality, a single larger damage bonus would do... Given the merrigo round that is Minmatar skill training and the fact that certain successful racial traits (ie speed) fail to transfer into later ship classes, I propose a new solution that would aim to solve the "Throw away bonuses" issue...

Solution
Let's Throw away, throw-away Minmatar bonuses in exchange for slots...
The traditional mantra has always been that Minmatar ships where * versatile*. Well active tanking and remote active tanking bonuses (see nidhoggur) more than any other kind of bonus destroy that ideal.
And in the case of shields (unlike armour) can be replaced almost exactly by an additional Tech 2 - shield boost amp (36% from the module vs 37.5% from the ship bonus before stacking is applied) so an extra mid slot in almost every case would directly compensate for the removal of the boost bonus.
In some cases various ships would have an early advantage at as relative tank compared to caldari ships at BS II-IV would be better however is is racially counter balanced by the dual tanking nature of minmatar ships.



Hel
Bonus removed - 5% bonus to Shield and Armor transfer amount per level
New slot layout - 7/7/5



Nidhoggur
Bonus changed - 10% bonus to Shield and Armor transfer capacitor power use per level



Naglfar
(???) Who knows WTF is happeneing to this ship is right now?



Vargur
With the new projectile changes considered I'm happy to keep this as is although the power grid of this ship (even with standard fittings considered) is no where near on par with the other Maruders.
+1500 power grid



Maelstrom
Bonus removed - 7.5% shield boost amount per level
New slot layout - 8/7/5
+50 CPU
Agility modifier changed to - 0.12
Mass reduced to - 101,000,000 kg



Tempest
Although most ships with dual damage bonuses work somewhat, the Tempest most certaintly does not. Barring a full gang fit (of which it has no where near the cpu to successfully fit, it has almost the same the slot/hardpoint layout/drone bandwidth as the Myrmidon. Although it's already faster than a drake, it also has the same sensor strength. All Battleships (with the exception of the scorpion) are designed to tank and gank to varying degree's of difficulty. The Tempest does neither, substituting performance for utility, that has gradually become irrelevant over the years. This combined with the way that rigs tend to improve specialised ships the most, the introduction of the Maelstrom and the speed nerf has seen the Tempest fall behind radically in it's real world effectiveness.

10% bonus to projectile damage per level + 100m3/mb dronebay/bandwidth
+50 CPU
Agility modifier changed to - 0.117
Mass reduced to - 100,000,000 kg
New slot layout - 8/6/6
Speed increased to match the Typhoon
Missile hardpoints changed to 1
Shield recharge rate reduced by 15%

The Tempest can now fit a moderate shield tank + gank or participate in armour RR with increased utility. Although it loses a bit of turret dps, it gains 25% more alpha (+/- 20% over the Maelstrom) and additional drone bay.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:59:00 - [2]
 

Fleet Tempest
10% bonus to projectile damage per level + 100m3/mb dronebay/bandwidth
+100 CPU
Agility modifier changed to - 0.117
Mass reduced to - 100,000,000 kg
New slot layout - 8/7/6
Speed increased to match the Typhoon
Missile hardpoints changed to 3
15% reduction to shield recharge rate

This ship no longer tries to compete (and fail horribly) with the Macherial and gives an alternative shield-turret platform to the Nightmare although top tier guns + tank would be no where near as easy to fit.



Panther
Similar to the Tempest in role and fittings thus...
10% bonus to projectile damage per level + 100m3/mb bronebay/bandwidth
+50 CPU
New slot layout - 8/6/6



Sleipnir
Bonus removed - 7.5% shield boost amount per level
New slot layout - 8/6/5
+50 CPU



Claymore
Bonus removed - 7.5% shield boost amount per level
New slot layout - 8/6/6 or 8/7/5
+50 CPU



Cyclone
Bonus removed - 7.5% shield boost amount per level
New slot layout - 8/6/4 or 8/5/5
+60 CPU
A deeply troubled ship in a tier of battlecruisers that I believe need fixing accross the board really.



Muninn
This is just a slot layout change as so it is better suited to it's role.
6/3/6 slot layout
50mb/m3 drone bay/bandwidth



In summary
The Maelstrom remains a great sniper with generally higher survivability and greater DPS whilst retaining it's PvE performance and noob friendly status however the tempest now becomes the alpha king with much needed improvements to close range skirmish performance.

As a primarily gallente pilot I do understand the frustrations you guys have with various ships. Overall performance is great, however if you want to contribute to a well rounded solution check out this thread...

However right now it's time for Matari pilots to stand up and redefine the meaning of Minmatar.

Red Thunder
WEPRA CORP
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:18:00 - [3]
 

so you want no skill bonuses on most of the ships???

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:24:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Red Thunder
so you want no skill bonuses on most of the ships???
There will still be a single damage bonus, or role bonuses for most ships but now you just have options. Your not condemned to fit a specific setup everytime.

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:34:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 17/11/2009 17:36:00
I'm ok with this, but maybe give +0.25 medium slots per level so you need at least bs level 4 to use this bonus slot. Maybe even +0.2 so you need bs5 to fully utilize your bs, like other races. Otherwise, they *will* cry.
Edit: this will also satisfy the guy that posted below me :P

Also dunno about the tank bonus on sleip/claymore, they're very powerful already, and can tank better than marauders (until you run out of cap booster 800).

Also Nidhoggur is very good as a triage ship, please don't take away it's logistics-like transfer bonus. Nidhoggur is fine IMO, maybe just needs a touch more CPU so it can fit a shield transfer+shield booster and all other gear normally, so you can use it as a shield tanker properly.

Not commenting on Hel because on sisi it now has a 5% resists for drones bonus... Laughing

But, all in all this is probably the best idea I've seen so far to fix tempest/mael. Drop a bonus and give one more slot. Bonuses just give one thing, while a slot can give "versatility".

Supported. Embarassed

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:34:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: Red Thunder
so you want no skill bonuses on most of the ships???
There will still be a single damage bonus, or role bonuses for most ships but now you just have options. Your not condemned to fit a specific setup everytime.


If you're not going to follow the most basic principles of Eve ship design, why are you even trying? T1 ships get two bonuses, T2 ships get four. That's malleable at the level of capitals(right now, carriers get 3, motherships and titans 4), but if your T1 battleships have one bonus, go back and do it again.

Tsuki Kage
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:38:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Tsuki Kage on 17/11/2009 17:45:51
Suporting this proposal Cool

PS: also i c now why they keep nerfing matars Very Happy

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.11.17 18:09:00 - [8]
 

I didn't realize CSM "proposals" could include redoing a whole race's ship lineup. Wow that's... ******ed.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.17 18:14:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 17/11/2009 18:18:36
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
I'm ok with this, but maybe give +0.25 medium slots per level so you need at least bs level 4 to use this bonus slot. Maybe even +0.2 so you need bs5 to fully utilize your bs, like other races. Otherwise, they *will* cry.
Edit: this will also satisfy the guy that posted below me :P
That would be interesting if it was possible although satifing the needs of Herschel Yamamoto has never been my aim.

Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Also dunno about the tank bonus on sleip/claymore, they're very powerful already, and can tank better than marauders (until you run out of cap booster 800).
Little changes in there active tanking performance however they can now do other things, such as fit tackle or passive setups as well as other commandships.

Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Also Nidhoggur is very good as a triage ship, please don't take away it's logistics-like transfer bonus. Nidhoggur is fine IMO, maybe just needs a touch more CPU so it can fit a shield transfer+shield booster and all other gear normally, so you can use it as a shield tanker properly.
Triage is the only thing the Nidhoggur can be concievibly thought at being useful at, and even then cap stability and personal tank > 25% more remote repping even for triage as if you've run out of cap or die a few minutes earlier, whats the point?



But, all in all this is probably the best idea I've seen so far to fix tempest/mael. Drop a bonus and give one more slot. Bonuses just give one thing, while a slot can give "versatility".
Supported. Embarassed
TYVM

Brendor Hasinor
Minmatar
BREAKING-POINT

Posted - 2009.11.17 18:32:00 - [10]
 

Interesting idea. I like it. It's a different solution to the problem and should be given a try. Question - do you think the ships will have enough power/cap to support an extra slot?

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:38:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Triage is the only thing the Nidhoggur can be concievibly thought at being useful at, and even then cap stability and personal tank > 25% more remote repping even for triage as if you've run out of cap or die a few minutes earlier, whats the point?


Making it need more rep mods fitted to do the same amount of rep does nto help cap-stability either.

It's a good ship with a useful niche...

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:46:00 - [12]
 

They really should just be one weapon type or the other. Make the phoon a missile boat and the pest a projectile or vice versa. I think the Maelstrom would go from one of the worst ships to one of the best if the shield boost bonus was both local and remote tank.

As to the Hel & Hog, I'm not sure what the complaint is with the current bonus. It makes them the most desired carrier/mom in a cap fleet. Everyone desires a little Hog lovin.

As to the Nag (a.k.a worst dread, a.k.a. FCs call battleships primary before worrying about these "dreads") - get rid of the missiles and double up on projectile bonuses. The end.

Gamrikis
Posted - 2009.11.17 20:04:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Gamrikis on 17/11/2009 20:05:07
Signed and bump

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.11.17 20:14:00 - [14]
 

Why not retain current bonuses on Tempest but redo it to be the Minmatar armour tank RRBS with 7 turrets / 4 mids / 7 lows and 100m3 dronebay.

That gives it competitive DPS output, free highslot for RR, and a passable tank on top. The Typhoon as it stands is a effective shortrange RRBS, why not make Tempest the same only using projectiles?


darius mclever
Posted - 2009.11.17 20:19:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: Red Thunder
so you want no skill bonuses on most of the ships???
There will still be a single damage bonus, or role bonuses for most ships but now you just have options. Your not condemned to fit a specific setup everytime.


If you're not going to follow the most basic principles of Eve ship design, why are you even trying? T1 ships get two bonuses, T2 ships get four. That's malleable at the level of capitals(right now, carriers get 3, motherships and titans 4), but if your T1 battleships have one bonus, go back and do it again.


this. not supported.

Graugaard
Minmatar
Internacine
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:01:00 - [16]
 

if you remove the shield bonus of mael/sleip/cyclone (cyclone is awesome, you just need slaves), claymore so on, you need to give them 1 extra mid slot, not low slot.

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2009.11.17 23:21:00 - [17]
 

+ 1

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2009.11.17 23:35:00 - [18]
 

As an Minmatar Enthusiast.... I have to say big fat no on this one.

Why the hell is everyone's solution to ships is to put more slots on it?

If you got a problem with bonuses... then fix the bonuses... the Minmatar need much loving... but this is a little overboard.

what's next? Add slots to all the other races? Yeah.. like CCP will go for that... let alone this.

Not supported.

Anna Kommenos
Posted - 2009.11.18 00:31:00 - [19]
 

no, i like my matari ships the way they are; especially my 1kdps permatank claymore :P

Morgan La'Chance
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.18 02:37:00 - [20]
 

Do you realize that you are making the best carrier into the worst carrier by doing this?

Savage Roar
O X I D E
Posted - 2009.11.18 08:34:00 - [21]
 

Maelstrom can tank easily over 1k dps for a long (read: longer than most fights) time by burning cap boosters, while still outputting upwards of 800 dps without overheating guns. This is comparable to a hyperion etc. Does not need fixing. The only thing in this whole thread I support is to remove the sleip active tank bonus, I prefer to run them passive, but then again many people don't, so best to leave that alone too.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.18 11:15:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Savage Roar
Maelstrom can tank easily over 1k dps for a long (read: longer than most fights) time by burning cap boosters, while still outputting upwards of 800 dps without overheating guns. This is comparable to a hyperion etc. Does not need fixing. The only thing in this whole thread I support is to remove the sleip active tank bonus, I prefer to run them passive, but then again many people don't, so best to leave that alone too.

THE ACTIVE TANK CAPIBLIES OF ANY PREVIOUSLY ACTIVE TANKED SHIPS WILL NOT CHANGE

Originally by: Anna Kommenos
no, i like my matari ships the way they are; especially my 1kdps permatank claymore :P
THE ACTIVE TANK CAPIBLIES OF ANY PREVIOUSLY ACTIVE TANKED SHIPS WILL NOT CHANGE

Originally by: Morgan La'Chance
Do you realize that you are making the best carrier into the worst carrier by doing this?
I've made no changes to the Archon.

Originally by: Bagehi
As to the Hel & Hog, I'm not sure what the complaint is with the current bonus. It makes them the most desired carrier/mom in a cap fleet. Everyone desires a little Hog lovin.
I assure you that this is not true. Also, have you seen the new bonuses to the Hel?

Originally by: Graugaard
if you remove the shield bonus of mael/sleip/cyclone (cyclone is awesome, you just need slaves), claymore so on, you need to give them 1 extra mid slot, not low slot.
High slot/Mid slot/Low Slot
All those ships receive an additional mid.

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Why not retain current bonuses on Tempest but redo it to be the Minmatar armour tank RRBS with 7 turrets / 4 mids / 7 lows and 100m3 dronebay.


A cruise missile phoon will still be better than a 1200mm tempest, even with 8/4/7. That and the fact that there is already an abundance of turreted battleships with 7 lows. The 8/6/6 slot layout would keep the Tempests current performance in armour however now it is able to shield tank to the same effectiveness as the Raven whilst keeping lows free for tracking mods, nano's and/or gyro's whilst the Phoon and Maelstrom become the tankers.

Originally by: Xing Fey
Making it need more rep mods fitted to do the same amount of rep does nto help cap-stability either.

It's a good ship with a useful niche...
Show me a cap stable Nidhoggur with 2 remote reps (even a triage setup) and it'll show you a cap stable Archon with 3 reps, as many cap mods and more EHP/better personal tank. There's no use repping 25% more if you die or cap out pretty early. An extra mid would help in this regard.

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.11.18 11:33:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Drake Draconis
As an Minmatar Enthusiast.... I have to say big fat no on this one.

Why the hell is everyone's solution to ships is to put more slots on it?

If you got a problem with bonuses... then fix the bonuses... the Minmatar need much loving... but this is a little overboard.

what's next? Add slots to all the other races? Yeah.. like CCP will go for that... let alone this.

Not supported.
What the tempest REALLY needs is 1300 more base grid. Then if it's still crap maybe another turret hardpoint (if yes then it also needs another 2600 grid on top, to fit said turret), or up the damage bonus to 7.5%(10%?) per level. For some reason, CCP doesn't want to do any of these simple fixes though so people come up with a ton of different (and sometimes dumb) ideas.

This idea is new, and doesn't do anything to overpower said ships, just gives them more different fitting configurations (it should give medium slots tempest/maelstrom, but for example only when you have the battleship skill at level 5). This would also be something unique to minmatar ships, now that they've nearly completely lost their speed advantage.

Yes vagabond is still speedy compared to other races cruisers, but it's the only exception and also not in this proposal. Also it'd probably be best to limit this change to tempest only and do some maths and see where it takes it. Other ships mentioned are already "good" anyway.

Also Nids are the best triage, it's their (tiny) niche and it should stay that way IMO.

I do like the extra mid on tempest and no rof but instead a 10% damage bonus. This gives a huge alpha and you keep the 2 utility high slots. If it also gets a little bit more grid (just 1300), it'd be a lowish range but high alpha shieldtank sniper. Decent. Not OP like an apoc, not awesome like a rokh but still usable, and with a nice alpha niche.

Garr Anders
Minmatar
The Red Circle Inc.

Posted - 2009.11.18 11:35:00 - [24]
 

Supported although I'm a bit cautious regarding the Tempest changes and the removing of ship boni in general (though the mid would open up versatility I admit, I somehow would miss something).

IMHO the Maelstrom should stay the alpha boat leaning more toward arties and the tempest should be the damage over time aka dps boat leaning more toward ACs.

IMHO the tempest shoud be the most agile and fast BS on the field and "dictate range" among the BS. A high agility, speed and decent shield tank and ACs.


TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.11.18 11:41:00 - [25]
 

All ships have 2 bonuses for each skill. Stop being stupid in the name of making your race "more flexible". Don't touch my ships, as I, for one, am happy with minmatar and will be happier after dominion.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.11.18 11:55:00 - [26]
 

/Signed 1000X. The Minnie BSs struggle to do anything well, and the active tanking bonuses are singularly useless (in ALL races) above cruiser (and even there, they're dubious, since most simply don't in PvP).

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:06:00 - [27]
 

All the Nidhoggur needs is some more CPU so you can swap those faction mods with t2 ones, and maybe some more EHP so it's more in-line with other three carriers...

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.11.18 16:36:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Pattern Clarc
THE ACTIVE TANK CAPIBLIES OF ANY PREVIOUSLY ACTIVE TANKED SHIPS WILL NOT CHANGE


...unless they already had a shield boost amp equipped, of course. But who cares about the third module you equip on an active shield tank? It's not like any of these ships had three mids before, right?

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:08:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
THE ACTIVE TANK CAPIBLIES OF ANY PREVIOUSLY ACTIVE TANKED SHIPS WILL NOT CHANGE


...unless they already had a shield boost amp equipped, of course. But who cares about the third module you equip on an active shield tank? It's not like any of these ships had three mids before, right?


Quoting stupidity...


Maelstrom
X-large shield booster II
Heavy Cap booster II
Invulnerability field II
Invulnerability field II
Shield Boost Amp II
Shield Boost Amp II

With active tanking bonus at lvl 5 =

X-large shield booster II
Heavy Cap booster II
Invulnerability field II
Invulnerability field II
Shield Boost Amp II
Shield Boost Amp II
Shield Boost Amp II

Now however, if you don't want to active tank, say you want to passive tank or snipe, you have an additional slot instead of a wasted bonus.

Anna Kommenos
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:17:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Pattern Clarc
THE ACTIVE TANK CAPIBLIES OF ANY PREVIOUSLY ACTIVE TANKED SHIPS WILL NOT CHANGE[/u][/yellow]



yes it does. pvp fit (especially sliep/clay with its active tank) need that tanking bonus more than the extra midslot, which would likely be used for some other utility purpose.
pve sliep or clay means the change is irrelevant.

i can kinda see your point with the mael, mainly cos active tanking pvp battleships make me cry, but again, for pve purposes the change is irrelevant...gotta consider the whole field here


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only