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blankseplocked Not a moral issue, but a practical one.
 
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Nonexistent Face
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.13 01:03:00 - [1]
 

Try your very best to view this as not a moral issue, but as a logical/practical issue.

I'm about to start recruitment for an all-deaf / deaf-friendly corporation, and I want to ensure it's good future by accumulating ISK. This character is relatively new and ever since he has been existent - I've set him on the long path for maxing all learning skills, probing, salvaging, AND corp skills. After all of these boring, skills are out of the way, I'm setting my character on the route of mission runner / complex runner / explorer. The general PvE profession - but of course, as any decent EVE player would, I'll occasionally PvP, and I've already gained more than enough experience on my no-longer played combat character.

So, what agent I want to use later on, you ask?

Of course, I want a L4 Q20 agent. I'm an Amarrian - so the corporation will have to be Ministry of War. I want the LP from that corp anyways. I'm hanging out here in Taru, trying to get some people to share mission turn-in's with me WHILE I do not have any combat skills and cannot even do level 1's. I want the turn-in's not for the ISK or LP, but for the standings. Some people in Taru cannot comprehend this, but pretty much 99 out of 100 of all mission runners through Taru won't let me piggyback on them, even if I offer to return the ISK from the turn-in reward AND pay back them some more ISK for the lost LP.

I'm sitting here... no one's giving me anything. Time is money. I need to do something. I have maxed learning skills, probing, salvaging, and corp skills. How to make money? Hate to say it, but I had to resort to temporarily ninja salvaging. I've gotten used to the probing system (i was completely new to it a week ago) and I can find someone and warp to them in less than 5 minutes. If that's slow, oh well - it's certainly fast enough for me.

So... while I'm occasionally sending out my ad for piggybacking onto someone's mission turn-in AND paying them ISK OR paying them with the service of salvaging their mission and splitting the salvage with them, I'm usually ninja salvaging another person's mission. Almost naturally (and expectedly), I get called out by whatever mission runner sees me in system - and I get labeled 'as a regular ninja'.

I tried to make Taru comprehend the practical application of my skills to making ISK. How does one with my skills make money with no combat skills? I do not know any trading, and I needed to practice probing anyways. It's not like EVE is a nice game, of course there will be ninja salvagers - but I do not intend to always be a ninja salvager. I am just making ISK and putting my skills to good use until I can finally do something MYSELF in my own missions.

So, what say you, EVE GD? Practically, was I right in my actions? Or not?

inb4 ****storm of moralnubs

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2009.11.13 01:25:00 - [2]
 

Ninja salvaging is a perfectly legal profession.
You're welcome to my wrecks whenever I'm in Mani Razz

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2009.11.13 01:32:00 - [3]
 

Um, good luck on what should be a very interesting corporation. I hope that it is successful. As for your predicament, have you explained to us what you need the ISK for? You claim that you can't run level 1 missions, but that is absurd. Of course you can. Teaming up with high-level mission runners is fine, but begging "99 out of 100" of them may have a negative impact on your dignity.

Also, why do you care whether we think ninja salvaging is "moral" or not? Ninja salvaging is perfectly OK. This is a role playing game. Typically, however, people who play the role of a ninja salvager, pirate, thief, or mercenary do not have moral qualms and go on the Internet to ask, "is this morally acceptable?" The fact that you are posting this query makes me wonder. If you are uncomfortable ninja salvaging, don't do it.

I think you need to choose one path. Either play as a scoundrel and take the knocks, or play as a carebear and join the hug-fest. Don't play as a scoundrel and get upset when carebears won't hug you.

Snasty
Caldari
The Hippies
The Bohemians
Posted - 2009.11.13 02:09:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Nonexistent Face
since all other corporations are not friendly towards deaf players in this game.


I cant see any reason why this would be true, certainly my corp would have no issue with a deaf player, it's not hard to have another player relay vent commands into chat windows if thats the issue.

Nonexistent Face
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.13 02:15:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Snasty
Originally by: Nonexistent Face
since all other corporations are not friendly towards deaf players in this game.


I cant see any reason why this would be true, certainly my corp would have no issue with a deaf player, it's not hard to have another player relay vent commands into chat windows if thats the issue.


Well, of course it's an exaggeration, but think of yourself in my shoes. I've played EVE for a long time and I've heard the same exact thing from every corporation.

"Yes, we definitely can accommodate you."

It's not JUST the chat relay (which all corporations have sucked in doing so far in my past) but it's also the social aspect of a corporation. In any regular corporation with ventrilo or teamspeak at their disposal (which is... well, all corporations really) - they are going to use VoIP to socialize instead of the text-based chat in EVE.

What does this make me in any regular corporation?

An outcast.

Snasty
Caldari
The Hippies
The Bohemians
Posted - 2009.11.13 02:20:00 - [6]
 

OK, perhaps it would be better to say that corps are not very effecient at catering for deaf players, rather than them being unfriendly?

Either way, good luck with your goal...

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.11.13 02:27:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Snasty
I cant see any reason why this would be true, certainly my corp would have no issue with a deaf player, it's not hard to have another player relay vent commands into chat windows if thats the issue.


Have you actually done this yourself?

What I've found historically is that the interaction via typing with the deaf people starts off with good intentions, but then the reality of not being able to partake in the voice conversation while transcribing turns most people off.

Try it yourself - while you're transcribing it's very hard to follow the spoken conversation. You as the transcriber will become isolated just as much as the deaf person you're transcribing for.


Snasty
Caldari
The Hippies
The Bohemians
Posted - 2009.11.13 02:33:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Have you actually done this yourself?

What I've found historically is that the interaction via typing with the deaf people starts off with good intentions, but then the reality of not being able to partake in the voice conversation while transcribing turns most people off.

Try it yourself - while you're transcribing it's very hard to follow the spoken conversation. You as the transcriber will become isolated just as much as the deaf person you're transcribing for.




OK, point taken. Is a very large corp the answer then? When I was in Eve Uni with an average of 200+ on-line at any time voice comms were a non-starter, all the discussions took place in chat.

methic
Posted - 2009.11.13 04:00:00 - [9]
 

Do you have a vent server for your corp we could discuss this deeper on there

Noun Verber
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.13 04:57:00 - [10]
 

Obviously you need a vent server....

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.11.13 05:16:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Snasty
Is a very large corp the answer then?


No need for large corp, just stop using voice chat for daily communication for a few days, pretend that you're deaf yourself. Some people desperately need to speak and be heard, others aren't using voice chat for much more than listening to the attention seekers, and a few rare people will actually be using voice chat for fleet operations.

If you and your corp can handle text-only chat a few nights a week, start advertising yourself as deaf-friendly and see if the deaf/sound-off people feel welcome.

This advice is to the world in general of course, not at anyone in particular.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2009.11.13 05:18:00 - [12]
 

Will you be ****ed if come Incarna you cannot make an avatar without a face?

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.11.13 05:18:00 - [13]
 

Well, in another game I played we used to do the cutting edge stuff. The normal player base also did this content sooner or later and would never have dreamed of doing it without vent. But we never used it except for social chat because:

1. If you have insufficient situational awareness to see what's happening then we did not want you.

2. Its distracting (important when milliseconds could count) and sometimes lead to the 'waffle' syndrome where a player or two would not STFU at important moments.

3. If you need to be told what to do you sucked.

4. It lead to reliance on others to make decisions for you and discouraged independent thought and initiative.

Now EVE is different in that it does require target calling, at least for PVP, some of the time. Also, with scouting for instance, you cannot always visualise your fellow players. Unfortunately EVE does not support text macros (like /raid attack %t) so its a lot harder for the deaf to get involved and very tricky to avoid vent.

But there are elements of the game that are better without vent I suspect and even in PVP I can see problems being solved with some thought and practise.

As to ninja salvager, well like anything in life if players think your profiting from their efforts some will be annoyed. It's up to you if that worries you or not. Just remember that this game does support the dog eat dog game style which is a reason even some of us carebears like to play it.

Cors
It's A Trap
It's A Trap Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.13 05:22:00 - [14]
 

OK. Way too much info. If you want to know the agent to go to, it's easily.

Pick a race(caldari, amarr whatever) Sounds like amarr for you.

Pull up the info on them.

Scroll down the list of corps, and pick the one you want(Sounds like the Ministry of War).

It'll show you a list of agents. Pick the highest one you can use(I'm assuming you want one in highsec) and then use it.

It's really not that hard.

Training for mission running takes less then 6 weeks on average.

raven.
Cruise missles
Medium drones

away you go.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.11.13 06:53:00 - [15]
 

That is a long post when you could have simply typed "I fail at level 1 missions and don't even want to spend the time to train the skills to complete level 1 missions"

I don't see why you want to be "power leveled" through to high standings for a level 4 agent when you cannot even run level 1 missions. If you get the standings and you will still be there sitting on your bum. If people don't want to help because you are too lazy to do the grind then do the grind.

And stop training learning skills and train something useful ffs. Nothing worse than a new player that is already failing at adapting. EVE = adapt or die, not whine on forums.

Nonexistent Face
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.13 15:22:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
That is a long post when you could have simply typed "I fail at level 1 missions and don't even want to spend the time to train the skills to complete level 1 missions"

I don't see why you want to be "power leveled" through to high standings for a level 4 agent when you cannot even run level 1 missions. If you get the standings and you will still be there sitting on your bum. If people don't want to help because you are too lazy to do the grind then do the grind.

And stop training learning skills and train something useful ffs. Nothing worse than a new player that is already failing at adapting. EVE = adapt or die, not whine on forums.



Why do you post when you cannot read?

Regarding first statement: Who said I was not planning on training? Note how I said I was going to finally train combat skills after I get all of the non-combat skills. I really think you're a troll because of this.

Regarding second paragraph: Refer to above answer...

[sarcasm]

Regarding third paragraph: Yes, you're absolutely correct. Learning skills are totally useless and must never be learned, even if you're going to play this game for a long ass time, and have already played this game a long ass time on other characters. You make such a great point! Also, yes I am a new player, I do not know wtf I am doing and need guidance.

[/sarcasm]

Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
Posted - 2009.11.13 15:25:00 - [17]
 

In space no one can hear you scream Razz

Hoo Is
Posted - 2009.11.13 15:45:00 - [18]
 

I run into a similar problem as our auditory impaired friend here.

My play schedule revolves around my family... when I do get time to play is normally when the kids are napping or asleep for the night. I can't have the voice blarring across the speakers while I play, and headphones are not an option cause I need to hear if the baby wakes up.

Jamyl TashMurkon
Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.13 16:00:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Hoo Is
I run into a similar problem as our auditory impaired friend here.

My play schedule revolves around my family... when I do get time to play is normally when the kids are napping or asleep for the night. I can't have the voice blarring across the speakers while I play, and headphones are not an option cause I need to hear if the baby wakes up.

Why have i read all of this before...

NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
Peregrine Nation
Posted - 2009.11.13 16:10:00 - [20]
 

It should be easy to find a corperation that dont use voice chat. Especially in corperations were there are a lot of non native english speakers chat is the easyest way to communicate.Just ask around in the recruitment channel,let them know that you do have an issue with voice chat,and go from there. I know for a fact that a lot of people would be thrilled that someone finally dont set voice chat as a requierment for them joining the corp :)

(not on topic really but tought i should trow it out there anyway)

Titan Pilot
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.11.13 16:19:00 - [21]
 

Keep playing, ignore the naysayers and have fun.

I would recommend you try to make friends with mission runners. Being social and friendly will get you farther than playing a lone ranger.

Because your not in 0.0 or at war, just minimize local if it offends you.

If it were me, I would pay special attention to the smack talkers in local. Flip their can, knock them off their game a bit. Trust me when they aint hitting the 40/mil per hour mark you are hurting them.






Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2009.11.13 16:21:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Par''Gellen on 13/11/2009 16:21:30
Originally by: Nonexistent Face
Well, of course it's an exaggeration, but think of yourself in my shoes. I've played EVE for a long time and I've heard the same exact thing from every corporation.

"Yes, we definitely can accommodate you."

It's not JUST the chat relay (which all corporations have sucked in doing so far in my past) but it's also the social aspect of a corporation. In any regular corporation with ventrilo or teamspeak at their disposal (which is... well, all corporations really) - they are going to use VoIP to socialize instead of the text-based chat in EVE.

What does this make me in any regular corporation?

An outcast.
Personally I loath voice chat of any kind and don't use it at all. Mainly because it usually goes like this:

*silence*
*silence*
*silence*
*EVERYONE BURSTS OUT TALKING AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!*
*silence*
*silence*
*EVERYONE BURSTS OUT TALKING AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!*
*silence*
*EVERYONE BURSTS OUT TALKING AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!*
*EVERYONE BURSTS OUT TALKING AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!*
*silence*

Unbelievably annoying. You aren't missing much. Trust me.

I am much more confortable chatting with text. You can be much more expressive with emotes anyway and I tend to act a bit nutty while mining Smile

Junko Togawa
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.13 16:31:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Don't play as a scoundrel and get upset when carebears won't hug you.


You have no justification for your actions. Either own up to them or move somewhere else and try again. Understand though that in EVE you're not going to be trusted not to rip someone off, cos the game encourages that kind of behavior. Therefore, IMO, don't bother. Take it while the taking is good. Swiping salvage may not always be so risk-free as it is now.

N Ano
Caldari
Templars of Space
Posted - 2009.11.13 16:37:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Ninja salvaging is a perfectly legal profession.
You're welcome to my wrecks whenever I'm in Mani Razz


+1 I am in Sankassen

Kazang
Wrecking Shots
Posted - 2009.11.13 17:10:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker


I think you need to choose one path. Either play as a scoundrel and take the knocks, or play as a carebear and join the hug-fest. Don't play as a scoundrel and get upset when carebears won't hug you.


This basically. Salvaging wrecks is a perfectly legal profession and they are first come first serve. However some people will get annoyed at you taking things that they assume to belong to them, even if it doesn't.

If you don't want to annoy these type of people don't ninja salvage otherwise keep at it, its decent money and it's enjoyable enough in small bursts.

Jessica Lorelei
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.16 21:54:00 - [26]
 

why do i get visions of lots of deaf players using sign language on web cams to relay orders, and then scrabbling around for the mouse to hit warp.

for the record a deaf corp is a great idea, my brother is deaf and left eve a while back, but he had issues with fleet/gang engagements due to vent.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2009.11.16 21:58:00 - [27]
 

I find your lack of face disturbing...

Salvo Brunel
Outbreak.
Posted - 2009.11.16 22:34:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Nonexistent Face

So, what agent I want to use later on, you ask?



Begging for standings boosts to get access to a L4 Agent seems pointless unless you have the skills to do the missions. You should be able to do L1 missions right now or at least after no more than 48 hours of combat (or hauling) training.

Get some combat skills, start running L1 missions, your standings will rise as your skills rise. It's hard work, it's called grinding for a reason, but it gets you to a point where you can make decent money.


Another Forum'Alt
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.11.16 23:22:00 - [29]
 

You shouldn't expect anyone to trust you if you steal stuff. Try to see it from their point of view, they know you're a salvage thief, they think you might bring alts in to suicide them if you're in a mission with them.

Perhaps find another system to raise standings in and don;'t steal things there, or just do missions ot get standing up yourself. If you train connections, it really doesn't take long to get to a good l2 or even straight to l3 and from there it isn't that hard to reach l4 agents.


 

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