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blankseplocked CCP: When will i see 1) 64bit & 2) DX10 versions of EVE?
 
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brutoid
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:11:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: illford baker
Originally by: Lork Niffle
Don;'t expect any leap anywhere until either Vista/Win7 has 40% and up of Gaming systems .

i will, again, point out this dev blog vista/7 does have 40%+


Yep, i do believe that we are reaching the 'tipping point' where that excuse is wearing thin. Now would be a good time for them to split the client again imo, they are going to be ending up using DX11 (read more specifically tesselation, compute shader) eventually so its hardly like development time will be truly wasted. Players could market this game for them in DX11 'ultra-beaut mode' which would draw some graphic junkies in and probably prompt a few dinosaurs here to upgrade for the extra candy.

Cant wait for Larrabee to finally arrive tbh, i'm sure we are gonna see Intel strike at the gpu market like we haven't seen a company do for a long time. They will be touting DX11, OpenCL, GPGPU etc until developers cant ignore them any longer, as per usual. Might just speed things up here.

ceaon
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:17:00 - [32]
 

i want eve on OpenGL not DX

brutoid
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:20:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: ceaon
i want eve on OpenGL not DX


And i wanna burn on my gf's sister. Whats your point?

illford baker
STK Scientific
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:20:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: ceaon
i want eve on OpenGL not DX
LOL Laughing every thread needs a good joke.

ceaon
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:25:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: brutoid
Originally by: ceaon
i want eve on OpenGL not DX


And i wanna burn on my gf's sister. Whats your point?

oh this is not a desire thread ?

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:26:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Khemul Zula on 01/11/2009 22:27:22
Originally by: brutoid
Originally by: ceaon
i want eve on OpenGL not DX


And i wanna burn on my gf's sister. Whats your point?
Is she a witch? You could possibly argue legal precedent.

Just saying. Legal systems seem to like precedent. Never once specifies fire, or the type of stake.

Blev Oblix
Gallente
ARK-CORP
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:31:00 - [37]
 

The problem is that the uptake of Win 7 will primarily be from Vista users who will have the benefit of a nice easy upgrade (altho I've read horror stories where it's not gone smoothly). As a Win XP user, there is no way I'm going to do a clean install until I have to. From the few bits of tech advice I read, that's the standard advice. So Win 7 will have to wait until I have to buy a new PC - and this one is only a year old.

And, tbh, upping the graphics from Classic didn't add anything to gameplay so what's the rush for the latest graphics standard?

illford baker
STK Scientific
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:40:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: illford baker on 01/11/2009 22:42:00
Originally by: Blev Oblix
The problem is that the uptake of Win 7 will primarily be from Vista users who will have the benefit of a nice easy upgrade (altho I've read horror stories where it's not gone smoothly). As a Win XP user, there is no way I'm going to do a clean install until I have to. From the few bits of tech advice I read, that's the standard advice. So Win 7 will have to wait until I have to buy a new PC - and this one is only a year old.

And, tbh, upping the graphics from Classic didn't add anything to gameplay so what's the rush for the latest graphics standard?

get a small external drive, backup your files, and do a clean install, its worth it. i, too was a XP user. when the beta for 7 came out i upgraded and never looked back. and yes, better graphics doesn't improve gameplay, but we want better graphics because it looks nicer, if you haven't seen DX10 you don't know what your missing so you cant say "DX9 is alright" because that is all you know. once i thought that n64 graphics was good, then gamecube i thought that n64 graphics were trash and gamecube was the best ever. same with DX9, DX10 and DX11

ghosttr
Amarr
ARK-CORP
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:40:00 - [39]
 

Well win7 does allow dx10 stuff to run on dx9 hardware via Direct3D 10 Level 9(although dx10 features are software emulated so if you tried to run with full goodies your framerate would be in the ****ter). And maybe they will backport it to vista.

So hardware isnt as important this time, as it was when upgrading from the classic client, the most important will be the adoption of win7.

SO putting the capability in there at least would improve performance in non-xp systems, even without upgrading the gfx themselves.


64 bit support is not as near term, as most users will probably be running 32 bit versions of win7 (though i dont know why, 64bit version performs alot better, and the majority of cpu hardware now supports 64bit). Win 8 is rumored to be 64 bit only (no 32 bit version) so maybe if that adops well we will get a 64 bit client (that 5+yrs away tho)


More importantly eve should be made to run better on multiple cores/threads

brutoid
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:42:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Khemul Zula


Just saying. Legal systems seem to like precedent. Never once specifies fire, or the type of stake.


Cant answer that without making myself look like a r.apist. Shocked

Originally by: Blev Oblix

And, tbh, upping the graphics from Classic didn't add anything to gameplay so what's the rush for the latest graphics standard?


Upping graphics does not equal nerfing gameplay, the two are not mutually exclusive and can infact help to enhance each other. Shocked

For me its about adding more 'total immersion', keeping my client full screen and keeping me inside the game for longer. It would also keep EvE visually competetive against next years competition. Plus, what shader model are we upto now? and the benefits it brings with it.

Salia WinterDrake
Tsunami Cartel
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.01 23:17:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Salia WinterDrake on 01/11/2009 23:18:37
Business use of WinXP vs Vista vs Win7 is not really of much concern to CCP - they'll be focussing on which OS'es are actually logging into Eve.

Its not tied to the number of PCs now shipping with Win7.

Sure their graphs show that Win7 is starting to make a decent showing, but the majority of 'early adopters' for Win7 are already using it, so the rate of 'organic' conversion as new PCs are shipped with Win7 may well be a bit slower from here on in.
The bulk of new subscribers WITH a new PC will add to these numbers, not current (post-Trinity) subscribers.

New subscribers (not trials) are not likely to make up a huge proportion of the login numbers - I think Win7 users will take time to accumulate further.

Point is, CCP will baulk at having to slice off a chunk of their subscriber base without having an overwhelming economic reason to do so. Dropping the classic client with its older shader model support probably hurt enough.

So reaching 90+% DX11 (or DX10) of all subscribed and logging-in users will take quite some time.

Camanche Jim
Posted - 2009.11.02 00:23:00 - [42]
 

Isn't the question directed at CCP?


Why hasn't the question being answered by CCP?


If those that answered want to work for CCP, put in an application and join the organization - but until then S T F U

Constance Red
Liquicity Industrys
Posted - 2009.11.02 00:28:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Camanche Jim
Isn't the question directed at CCP?


Why hasn't the question being answered by CCP?


If those that answered want to work for CCP, put in an application and join the organization - but until then S T F U


Healthy discussion isn't discouraged :)

If were honestly all waited for CCP to answer questions we'd all be dead of old age :)

illford baker
STK Scientific
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.02 00:30:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Constance Red


Healthy discussion isn't discouraged :)

If were honestly all waited for CCP to answer questions we'd all be dead of old age :)
well, it is 12AM at eveHQ

Cap Jinx
Gallente
Onefix RD
Posted - 2009.11.02 00:46:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Camanche Jim
Isn't the question directed at CCP?


Why hasn't the question being answered by CCP?


If those that answered want to work for CCP, put in an application and join the organization - but until then S T F U
If CCP dropped everything to answer every thread starting with "CCP, bla bla bla whine whine whine" in general discussions, they'de be doing nothing else

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.11.02 00:47:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Camanche Jim
Why hasn't the question being answered by CCP?
Because that would be much less entertaining. Twisted Evil

It's like seeing a shiney button labeled "DO NOT PRESS! SERIOUSLY! YOU DO NOT WANT TO PRESS THIS!". Of course you could do the sensible thing and not press it. After all the sign said right there, 'do not press'. But where would be the fun in that? Plus you'd never live with yourself for not finding out what the button did. I mean it could destroy the world. You could have had a button that destroyed the world and didn't press it! Life is not worth living with that knowledge.

Anyways, I'm not sure how but it is just like that.

Caporiccio
Posted - 2009.11.02 01:09:00 - [47]
 

I'd rather have walking in stations, dust 514, and a larger player base (more targets) way before DX10 and 64bit versions of the game.

Hell look at Adobe. Way more people on this planet use Adobe software than there are people who play EvE (As great as EvE is). Any what do you get from them? Photoshop 64 bit, the rest isn't yet and they aren't particularly in a rush to get the rest of their suite up to par. Why? Well PS actually uses the memory, EvE at max I've ever seen only uses 500-700mb if you've got a LOT going on.

So for 64bit, CCP doesn't need to yet, its not a bottleneck. For DX10, as others have said maybe when Win XP is largely obsolete (AKA not used anymore).

Unfortunately though for developers, I'd put money on it that WinXP is going to be the IE6 of windows desktop application hurdles. It works, and a lot of people will be hanging on to it for quite awhile.

Just my $.02.

It took a few years to ween people off of Windows 2000 towards XP (SP1 is when people started to move over). I'd say when or if Windows 7 experiences a similar move, thats about how long itll be before you start seeing DX11 features in an EvE client. 2-3 years.

Blev Oblix
Gallente
ARK-CORP
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.11.02 09:51:00 - [48]
 

Quote:
get a small external drive
Thank you but no, I'm not buying more h/w just to carry on playing a game (that's why I bought this PC). And why do you assume a small drive?

Quote:
backup your files, and do a clean install, its worth it.
Thanks but no thanks. I've wasted far too much of my life in doing clean re-installs and it's never been worth it, only necessary. And so far as the published advice goes, Win 7 is yet to be a necessary upgrade for Win XP.

Quote:
when the beta for 7 came out i upgraded and never looked back.
Perhaps you should start looking back if only to find out where you've been, where you are and where you might be going.

Quote:
but we want better graphics because it looks nicer,
Actually, I prefer substance over style - I've played far too many games that looked great but played like crap.

Quote:
if you haven't seen DX10 you don't know what your missing
If it's like the last graphics upgrade which gave us clever stuff like reflective station interiors, pretty asteroids and made Minnie ships look like they were wearing lace panties then thanks but no thanks.

Primnproper
Posted - 2009.11.02 10:55:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: brutoid
Originally by: Blev Oblix

And, tbh, upping the graphics from Classic didn't add anything to gameplay so what's the rush for the latest graphics standard?


Upping graphics does not equal nerfing gameplay, the two are not mutually exclusive and can infact help to enhance each other. Shocked


Since when did, saying that graphics didn't add anything equate to nerfing gameplay?

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.11.02 11:50:00 - [50]
 

I'd settle for them just sorting out the z-distance on the translucent textures so the graphics card doesn't end up having a hernia trying to render twenty layers of red nebula, or four weapon flashes on the hull of my ship.

Oh, and it would be nice if clouds 100km away didn't obscure laser beams and engine exhaust in the foreground.

Upgrading to DX10 would just make the fail more epic.

Raneru
Combat and Recon
Posted - 2009.11.02 12:54:00 - [51]
 

The question is not can we upgrade the client, its should we. What advantages would 64bit and DX11 have that would make it worth it for the current models, textures, data, etc that eve has?


Neamus
Posted - 2009.11.02 15:35:00 - [52]
 

Just to keep things on track:

Windows Vista is really really good.

Windows XP and Windows 7 suck, If you use either of these OS then you have no genitals and your mother is called Henry.

Signed: A Petition to implement a DX6 EvE client in Ubuntu.

I like donkey pron.

brutoid
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.02 16:23:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Primnproper
Originally by: brutoid


Upping graphics does not equal nerfing gameplay, the two are not mutually exclusive and can infact help to enhance each other. Shocked


Since when did, saying that graphics didn't add anything equate to nerfing gameplay?


Upping grahics does not equal nerfing gameplay improvements. It was late and the dog was licking my balls.




DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.11.02 17:39:00 - [54]
 

Goddamnit we had this thread last week, and the week before that.

Simple answer is NO you will not see DX10/11 in the next 4 years because:

- It costs resources (read: money) to make, and the average quality of video game graphics is still below what EVE does today thanks to the persistent current console generation. There is no competitive pressure.

- At least 5-10% of the userbase will cling to XP until their machines physically disintegrate into silica and they're forced to buy new ones where hardware specs require you to run Vista or newer for more than trivial performance differences.

- CCP has a viable 'lite' client for crappy mobile platforms like smartphones and laptops with integrated graphics (read: 98% of the laptops currently being sold)

- Even if the above three conditions are satisfied, a significant portion of households have, or will have OS X machines where DX10/11 API wrappers are experimental and commercial solutions are equivalent to "give us money and we'll hack it the best we can"

- Even if the above four conditions are somehow magically satisfied, emerging and secondary markets (remember there is an EVE China) ensure what becomes mainstream here will require additional time to become mainstream there

DX9 is a pile of crap, and I would love to see them dump it. But even this much is too much for CCP. Its taken almost two years to roll out the majority of Trinity 2 upgrades. And they were perhaps cutting edge when they were announced 2 years before the release of said upgrades. I doubt CCP is looking forward to doing something like that again, as much as they were the first time.

Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:13:00 - [55]
 

Hopefully they are looking into a DX11 Client with support for Tesselation. That could be a VERY nice replace for the current (quite bad) bump-mapping technique they are using. In fact implementing (just) that should be relatively straightforward as the required data is already in the client. And it should also be easy enough to keep the current technique for pre-DX11 cards.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.04 01:10:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: SpaceSavage
Don't get me wrong, i don't have memory issues, my RAM is DDR3 and is nice and fast, and the spec of my PC is good. But wouldn't you like... more?

More... What? Do you even have the slightest clue about how modern operating systems make use of memory?

Hint: A large portion of it gets used for caching stuff from the harddrive. So talk of 'using all my 8 GB of memory' is quite stupid, as you already are.

Also, did you know that compiling the same 32-bit code using 64-bit _INCREASES_ code size and memory footprint by an average of 30% or so? (Pointers take 8 byte, not 4 byte and such). So you're likely to get reduced speed.

Wait, WTF, Are You Serious? The Lastest Hype Word I Learned Will Actually Make My EVE Client Slower and Hog More Memory With No Benefit? OMG#!#!#!#!#!@@#

Or something like that. So leave these kinds of stuff to professionals.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2009.11.04 10:02:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
The limitation with 32bit is that each *process* can allocate 32bits of ram.

On 32 bit Windows its 2GB *per process*, not 4.

Originally by: LaVista Vista
And that is to very little benefit. I have barely experienced an EVE client using up 1gb of RAM. I used 800mb once, but that was due to a memory leak.

In large fleet fights I routinely get over 800MB. At the time of the memory leak I passed 1.7GB just flying around.

To the OP:
CCP is always doing experiments with new technology behind the scenes. They did it with DX10 and very probably starting to do it with DX11 now. If they ever rework the engine there is no reason not to go directly to the more future proof DX11, especially since Vista will also get DX11.

Ralle030583
Mystic Lion Hearts
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.11.04 10:22:00 - [58]
 

Win7 runs quite nice on my old XP pc's who coudn't handle vista...

but back to topic:
gameplay > graphics
i my opinions they should focus more on existing old bugs instead of playing with graphics
current one looks nice and is fine , so whats the problem? we dont rlly need even better graphics
so no need for dx10 or 64bit (cause no need for bigger RAM allocations, me runnung for example fine 5 clients
in window mode on a 32bit system...)

just my 2 cent
Ralle

Mihali
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.04 10:31:00 - [59]
 

It's not a matter of can we, it's a matter of should we?

Since most players live on a limited income and probably couldn't afford new hardware for at least a year or so. You have Joe Blow with his wife & family paying a mortgage, playing the game on a casual basis that can only afford a new system, if it's in the family budget. We can't all be elite tech guys with awesome salaries or live with our parents. So you all can just calm down till Win7 hits the mainstream & at least SP1. Don't forget to take your Ritalin

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.04 10:48:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: AterraX on 04/11/2009 10:48:32
I would rather have tesselated, DX11/10 (When you code for DX11, there is a fallback path to DX10.1, DX10 and DX9) shadered, supersampled transparacy antialiased graphics that immerses me into the game...than walking in stations, I signed up for space...not "System Shock 3"


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