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Adyriana
Posted - 2009.11.01 19:20:00 - [1]
 

[High]
4x Rocket Launcher I w/ Thorn Rockets
*Blank*

[Med]
Medium Shield Extender
named Web
1MN MWD
Scram I

[Low]
Micro Auxilliary Power Core
Damage Control I

[Rigs]
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer
Warhead Calefaction Catalyst


Planning on maybe putting a 150mm Gattling in the last highslot. Anyways, would anybody point of the flaws with this fit please?

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2009.11.01 19:26:00 - [2]
 

3/10

Points for actually starting a topic about solo PvP in a lolHawk, but you lose major points for putting such an awful fit on it that it isn't a plausible troll.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.11.01 19:40:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin
3/10

Points for actually starting a topic about solo PvP in a lolHawk, but you lose major points for putting such an awful fit on it that it isn't a plausible troll.


For the "would anybody point of the flaws with this fit please?" he deserves at least an extra point.

4/10 imo


SwineFlu H1N1
Posted - 2009.11.01 19:42:00 - [4]
 

I'll only give it 1/10 cause its been done to death.

Adyriana
Posted - 2009.11.01 19:50:00 - [5]
 

okay fine I simply must throw in the towel then. What shipclass should someone begin to use after they're done with hte rookietraining with frigs?

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.11.01 19:53:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Adyriana
okay fine I simply must throw in the towel then. What shipclass should someone begin to use after they're done with hte rookietraining with frigs?

Cruisers and Tech 2 frigs that aren't the Hawk (the Harpy is quite good though).

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.11.01 22:36:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Adyriana
okay fine I simply must throw in the towel then. What shipclass should someone begin to use after they're done with hte rookietraining with frigs?

Cruisers and Tech 2 frigs that aren't the Hawk (the Harpy is quite good though).


Hawk is good if you think the Kestrel is too good and want to do it in something more gimped though.

I once died to one in a Rifter, but he had a deadspace booster. Fortunately the Hawk has been nerfed since then so that won't happen again.


Adyriana
Posted - 2009.11.02 00:01:00 - [8]
 

Okey, so lets say a Harpy. What should I focus on while rigging it up for solo pvp?

Zaius Caine
Posted - 2009.11.02 00:30:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Adyriana
Okey, so lets say a Harpy. What should I focus on while rigging it up for solo pvp?


Lots of players blaster fit their Harpys but I've never been a big fan of this because other ships do it better (like the Ishkur) The only way to fit a Harpy imho is with 75mm rails and a MWD. The dps is low but the idea is to kite your opponent and chip away at him. Works great.

Mansoto
Posted - 2009.11.02 00:53:00 - [10]
 

Quote:
Hawk is good if you think the Kestrel is too good and want to do it in something more gimped though.


The real problem with the Hawk is it's overshadowed in most every way by Caracal, with the exception of a minimal agility / speed loss. Assault Launchers are quite a different mechanic and lends itself to the Hawk's demise no matter how you look at it, unless they do something radically different with the Hawk altogether.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.11.02 01:04:00 - [11]
 

The problem with the hawk, OP, is that rockets are terrible. Look at explosion radius and velocity of rockets...You do reduced damage to FRIGATES for christ's sake.

Hawk's not horrible if you want to fit standard missiles on it (I think it gets a bonus to them). However, you would be MUCH better suited to training for T2 modules before a t2 ship. T2 DCs, shield extenders, etc. will give you the same performance boost as going from a t1 to a t2 ship for a tiny fraction of the cost. At least I'd try to put some named mods on.

Minkert
Caldari
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2009.11.06 05:44:00 - [12]
 

Ima give away a secret- When you fit a ship- look at it's ship bonuses. A hawk can take hella damage as a primary- if fitted correctly.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2009.11.06 06:17:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Minkert
Ima give away a secret- When you fit a ship- look at it's ship bonuses. A hawk can take hella damage as a primary- if fitted correctly.



No it can't. It is too slow to keep transversal up (or, if you fit a MWD to be fast enough, you no longer have cap to run your "awesome" tank), which means as soon as someone bothers to call you primary, you'll be dead almost instantly.


Not that anyone will call you primary, of course, since you do what, 50 dps at most? By the time anyone bothers to shoot at a ship as terrible as a Hawk, all of the good ships in your gang are already dead, so your "tank" just delays the inevitable for a couple seconds.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2009.11.06 11:18:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 06/11/2009 11:40:48
To the OP : the main problem with the Hawk is that it doesn't do enough damage, making the fights last too long, greatly increasing the odds of your opponent getting help at which point you're in deep trouble as you are not good at disengaging. If you want to do that kind of damage, use a Crow and politely leave the scene if your mate insists on turning your little intimacy moment into an orgy. AFs have to commit to the fight, which can be acceptable for high damage ones, but is really bad for the low damage ones.

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
The problem with the hawk, OP, is that rockets are terrible. Look at explosion radius and velocity of rockets...You do reduced damage to FRIGATES for christ's sake.


Guess what... Frigate guns don't do their full damage on frigates as well... Autocannons and blasters always end up in falloff and lasers usually have tracking issues...

Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Minkert
Ima give away a secret- When you fit a ship- look at it's ship bonuses. A hawk can take hella damage as a primary- if fitted correctly.



No it can't. It is too slow to keep transversal up (or, if you fit a MWD to be fast enough, you no longer have cap to run your "awesome" tank), which means as soon as someone bothers to call you primary, you'll be dead almost instantly.


Not that anyone will call you primary, of course, since you do what, 50 dps at most? By the time anyone bothers to shoot at a ship as terrible as a Hawk, all of the good ships in your gang are already dead, so your "tank" just delays the inevitable for a couple seconds.


It's called a cap booster. How to win most frig hulls duels on the test server (can work on tranq just stay away from sentinels and long range fit):

[Hawk, Test server]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Power Diagnostic System II

1MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Booster II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 200
Warp Scrambler II

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Fuazzole
Posted - 2009.11.06 11:44:00 - [15]
 

You don't need a lot of DPS solo if you can tank the enemy, that's how the Vengance works.
87 dps
218 tank
37m sig

Unfortunatly for the Hawk, it can't tank, so sell/stash and wait till a long and distant patch that cures it.

Hawk
Same DPS as Vengance (kinetic only)
1/2 Tank
up to 35% more sig radius

Conclusion:
If you really really want to fly a missle AF, use the Vengance, not the best solo ship around but quite a bit better then the Hawk.

Aseir Miristar
Posted - 2009.11.06 12:07:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Aseir Miristar on 06/11/2009 12:08:37
Edit: ****ing CEO alt, and ****ing CCP's broken as hell forums that keep setting it to my default character. This is Merin.


Originally by: Lubomir Penev
It's called a cap booster. How to win most frig hulls duels on the test server (can work on tranq just stay away from sentinels and long range fit):



And note the AB on your comedy fit. This means that you are too slow to keep transversal up, and will be taking 500-1000 dps* just from one ship, considerably more than the 108 dps (peak, not sustained!) your setup can tank. Even a single frigate can break that "tank", and without any significant dps, you aren't going to be killing anything before they do.



*Yes, I know you limited your setup to SiSi frigate duels, but the person I was replying to in the post you quoted claimed that the Hawk was a good tanker as a primary, implying use in gang PvP, not just SiSi duels.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2009.11.06 12:59:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Aseir Miristar

And note the AB on your comedy fit. This means that you are too slow to keep transversal up, and will be taking 500-1000 dps* just from one ship, considerably more than the 108 dps (peak, not sustained!) your setup can tank.



On Sisi, (Free crystal set, etc...) it can tank more than 200dps, way more in kin/therm which will be the damage dealt by the most of the usual suspects (Enyo, Taranis, Ishkur). Hence king of duels, not that it got much relevance with Tranq PvP.

And considering it operates in scram range anyway AB is the best choice, provided you have a mean to get in scram range in first place, but many people will throw themselves happily in scram range. Against a MWD cruiser even webbed you'll control range and have quite a bit of transversal. Also sig is not bloated by an extender.

Ralavina
Vivicide
Posted - 2009.11.06 13:41:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Ralavina on 06/11/2009 13:42:33
Get a Harpy instead, much better.


[Harpy, Solo]
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Gistii C-Type Small Shield Booster
Gistii C-Type Small Shield Booster
Coreli A-Type 1MN Afterburner
Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I

Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Dark Blood Small Nosferatu

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II


Lenartowicz
FireStar Inc
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.11.06 14:20:00 - [19]
 

fail at cost

Mikael Mechka
Gallente
Time Bandits.
Posted - 2009.11.06 14:30:00 - [20]
 

Have a look at this.

Rockets might be getting a fix at some point...

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2009.11.06 16:02:00 - [21]
 

I did manage to build a passive tanked hawk on SiSi using medium shield extenders, and it could tank any frigate sized ship, but I just couldn't get it do do enough DPS to be a threat. I tried and tried to make a decent pvp Hawk fit which didn't fail and gave up, best I could do was work on the passive theme and build a bait hawk that was immune to neuts, but bait ships are meta pvp rather than real pvp.

I did manage to tank the 'You *will* lose your ship' training mission in an active boosted hawk, so it can tank, but in PVP it runs out of midslots and falls over when neuted.

Zalena Skytrayn
Ceptic Innovations
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
Posted - 2009.11.10 00:18:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Aseir Miristar

And note the AB on your comedy fit. This means that you are too slow to keep transversal up, and will be taking 500-1000 dps* just from one ship, considerably more than the 108 dps (peak, not sustained!) your setup can tank. Even a single frigate can break that "tank", and without any significant dps, you aren't going to be killing anything before they do.


Bit of noob help required with this please...

The only ships I can think of that could possibly put out that kind of DPS are like BS / SB with torps ? but how exactly are they going to hit an Afterburned AF ? unless they are fitted with small weapon systems, that wouldn't be able to output 500 - 1000 DPS ?

This is a genuine question BTW, I have never seen the point in putting a MWD on an AF and ballooning it's sig from 39 upto 266 - thus helping the opposition to kill you ...

Also, the numbers people quote here confuse me somewhat .. 50DPS ? is that correct ? My Hawk put's out 93.7DPS with tank of 86, this is far from what I'm reading here..

Any clarification on these numbers would be appreciated, because I actually like the hawk, it's like an irritating little fly IMO and as everyone who plays eve knows (well, everyone that posts on these forums) being an annoying arse is win in eve .. :P

My current fit BTW

[Hawk, Cheap version]

4x Rocket Launcher II (Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket)
Small Nosferatu II

Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier I
1MN MicroWarpdrive II
Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster

Overdrive Injector System II
Ballistic Control System II

2x Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I



And this is what I'd like to fit, but for the extra 50 mil or so, not sure if it's worth it ... (104 DPS, cap stable with all mods running)

[Hawk, More Expensive]

4x Rocket Launcher II (Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket)
Corpii C-Type Small Nosferatu

Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
Dread Guristas Stasis Webifier
Gistii B-Type 1MN Afterburner
Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster

Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II

Small Bay Loading Accelerator I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Regards

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2009.11.10 00:41:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 10/11/2009 00:53:15
Quote:
Bit of noob help required with this please...

The only ships I can think of that could possibly put out that kind of DPS are like BS / SB with torps ? but how exactly are they going to hit an Afterburned AF ? unless they are fitted with small weapon systems, that wouldn't be able to output 500 - 1000 DPS ?


Various ships as low as cruiser sized can do that kind of damage - but they don't need to. Even somewhere around the 300 region will melt it without difficulty. Stealth bombers aren't even worth mentioning here - they suck against frigates anyway. It's not an issue of your sig radius, it's the fact you're so slow that any cruiser can kite you and drop your transversal to zero, with fairly predictable results.

Quote:
I have never seen the point in putting a MWD on an AF


Let me just reiterate that:
A Cruiser can outrun you.
This is why an AB is nothing short of comedy here. The only stuff that gets in range will be grossly dimwitted or unlucky pilots (and it's not like killing those makes the Hawk a passable ship) and people who want you to be there.

Quote:
it's like an irritating little fly IMO and as everyone who plays eve knows (well, everyone that posts on these forums) being an annoying arse is win in eve .. :P


Why settle for just being an arse, when you could be an arse that can actually deal some hurt and tackle just as well for the same or lower price?

Speaking of price, both your fits are lolworthy. I'm amazed you didn't realise that needing a faction mod which costs more than the ship just to be passable is usually a sign you're flying the wrong thing. If you're willing to spend that kind of ISK, why not just get 2-3 fully fitted Harpies instead?

Actually as I'm bored, let's see roughly what these would cost altogether (give or take a few mil):
First fit - Around 60mil
Second fit - Around 85mil

For a ship inferior to every other AF, cruiser, and even some tech 1 frigates.
Yeah.

Zalena Skytrayn
Ceptic Innovations
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
Posted - 2009.11.10 01:00:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Zalena Skytrayn on 10/11/2009 01:04:08
OK, no good at quoting, takes too long to mess around with :P

Cruiser, outrun an AF ? 861 m/s versus webbed cruiser speed ?

And, I just looked at a caracal fit (yeah yeah, caldari blah blah) 1200 m/s with MWD, for 40secs .. so can a cruiser out run ? especially when scrammed / webbed ?

I thought damage scaled on differing factors, ie, sig radius & explosion velocity, tracking speed etc .. this is what i really struggle with, people say about getting optimals, and tracking etc, but when it comes to the hawk, none of that seems to matter .. everything hits a hawk for full damage ? even when it's doing just short of 900 m/s in 4k orbit ? (please advise what weapons would do massive damage to a 900m/s 39 sig frigate at 4k)

why not get 2 - 3 harpies ? well .. is this not maybe where some people's peception of different ships fail; ? as a missile spec pod pilot, I have lots of SP (from my limited pool of SP) in missile skills, which I think helps my DPS, I currently have about 50k in other weapon systems, so no, a harpy is not an option (for 2 - 3 - 4 yr old and more, maybe you have that luxury, but we aren't all there yet)

My biggest issue is the AB vs MWD theory ... MWD goes against one of the biggest attributes of an AF surely, ie, the incredibly small sig radius ?

Thanks for your reply though, the more constructive info posted really helps with making the decisions.. :)

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2009.11.10 01:09:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 10/11/2009 01:13:13
Originally by: Zalena Skytrayn
Edited by: Zalena Skytrayn on 10/11/2009 01:04:08
OK, no good at quoting, takes too long to mess around with :P

Cruiser, outrun an AF ? 861 m/s versus webbed cruiser speed ?

And, I just looked at a caracal fit (yeah yeah, caldari blah blah) 1200 m/s with MWD, for 40secs .. so can a cruiser out run ? especially when scrammed / webbed ?


You'd have a hard time scramming me in the first place if I danced around out of reach raining down cruiser dps pain. See point above about it being a problem catching them at all.


Quote:
I thought damage scaled on differing factors, ie, sig radius & explosion velocity, tracking speed etc .. this is what i really struggle with, people say about getting optimals, and tracking etc, but when it comes to the hawk, none of that seems to matter .. everything hits a hawk for full damage ? even when it's doing just short of 900 m/s in 4k orbit ? (please advise what weapons would do massive damage to a 900m/s 39 sig frigate at 4k)


Explosion velocity and radius is missiles. These are what you will have few problems with.
Transversal on the other hand is turrets, and your afterburner makes you hilariously easy to hit out at range because you just don't have the speed to catch me.

Edit: To elaborate a bit; say you run into Merins Phantasm, which is pretty much the textbook example for this situation - they're out at 20km or so, and they're faster than you. You have no transversal, and are too slow to catch up, so you're taking the full brunt of that battlecruiser level dps, in a frigate hull. That's going nowhere good.

Quote:
why not get 2 - 3 harpies ? well .. is this not maybe where some people's peception of different ships fail; ? as a missile spec pod pilot, I have lots of SP (from my limited pool of SP) in missile skills, which I think helps my DPS, I currently have about 50k in other weapon systems, so no, a harpy is not an option (for 2 - 3 - 4 yr old and more, maybe you have that luxury, but we aren't all there yet)


"I have low gun skills" is not an excuse. Tech 2 frigate weapons are pitifully easy to train and WELL worth it. Want some perspective on that? My blaster Harpy does more than double the damage of the lolhawk and my gunnery is nothing to brag about. To be exact; I have over 3 times more SP in missiles than gunnery, yet my blasters double the lolrockets. They're THAT fail.

Quote:

My biggest issue is the AB vs MWD theory ... MWD goes against one of the biggest attributes of an AF surely, ie, the incredibly small sig radius ?


Hint: MWDs have an off button.

Zalena Skytrayn
Ceptic Innovations
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
Posted - 2009.11.10 01:18:00 - [26]
 

Hmm, firstly, please don't be so aggressive with your replies (why does every post reply on this forum have so much love involved) I'm asking questions for serious help ..

So, my hawk fits are fail, because of the AB, but I just looked at the top 10 rated Harpy fits on BC, and not a single one of them has a MWD fitted ? now surely, based on the fact that BC is a very well used site, there should be lots of harpy fits with MWD at the top rated, or at least all the AB fits should be called lolharpy ?

I honestly can't see why 1 fit is good for one ship, and lol for another ? that's why I'm here asking ....

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2009.11.10 01:25:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 10/11/2009 01:28:49
Originally by: Zalena Skytrayn
Hmm, firstly, please don't be so aggressive with your replies (why does every post reply on this forum have so much love involved) I'm asking questions for serious help ..

So, my hawk fits are fail, because of the AB, but I just looked at the top 10 rated Harpy fits on BC, and not a single one of them has a MWD fitted ? now surely, based on the fact that BC is a very well used site, there should be lots of harpy fits with MWD at the top rated, or at least all the AB fits should be called lolharpy ?

I honestly can't see why 1 fit is good for one ship, and lol for another ? that's why I'm here asking ....



Be highly suspicious of anything you see on Battleclinic. 90% of stuff I've seen there is completely ******ed. And they're not just fail because of the AB, the massive cost and pitiful dps make it a completely pointless choice as well.

Sure you can fly an AB fit, but doesn't it disturb you at all that there are battlecruisers that can kite you to death? Hell, at 861m/s my Drake can go faster. That web and scram is completely ineffective if you can't catch the target to apply it.

Edit - Also, the sad fact is, the way you've fitted it (minus the faction gear) is pretty much the only way you can fit a Hawk. It lacks the grid and CPU for a viable standard missile build.

Zalena Skytrayn
Ceptic Innovations
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
Posted - 2009.11.10 01:32:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 10/11/2009 01:28:49
Originally by: Zalena Skytrayn
Hmm, firstly, please don't be so aggressive with your replies (why does every post reply on this forum have so much love involved) I'm asking questions for serious help ..

So, my hawk fits are fail, because of the AB, but I just looked at the top 10 rated Harpy fits on BC, and not a single one of them has a MWD fitted ? now surely, based on the fact that BC is a very well used site, there should be lots of harpy fits with MWD at the top rated, or at least all the AB fits should be called lolharpy ?

I honestly can't see why 1 fit is good for one ship, and lol for another ? that's why I'm here asking ....


Be highly suspicious of anything you see on Battleclinic. 90% of stuff I've seen there is completely ******ed. And they're not just fail because of the AB, the massive cost and pitiful dps make it a completely pointless choice as well.

Sure you can fly an AB fit, but doesn't it disturb you at all that there are battlecruisers that can kite you to death? Hell, at 861m/s my Drake can go faster. That web and scram is completely ineffective if you can't catch the target to apply it.

Edit - Also, the sad fact is, the way you've fitted it (minus the faction gear) is pretty much the only way you can fit a Hawk. It lacks the grid and CPU for a viable standard missile build.


Hmm ok, guess i'll hold off on the faction mods for a while then and see how well / or how bad it does in reality :) only 8 days of training for each race frig 5.. guess that's an option while I test ..

TY

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.11.10 08:57:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 10/11/2009 08:57:38
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

Be highly suspicious of anything you see on Battleclinic. 90% of stuff I've seen there is completely ******ed. And they're not just fail because of the AB, the massive cost and pitiful dps make it a completely pointless choice as well.


Battleclinic is not a sensible place to look for ship fits. The Caracal was mentioned in this thread as a particularly good frigate killer - but the top-rated Battleclinic anti-frigate Caracal is an hilarious ABing lolfit with a scrambler.

The advice that you get on this place may will be rude and terse, but it'll also be good advice. And yes, the Hawk is basically worthless.

HANZ BLIX
Posted - 2009.11.10 11:37:00 - [30]
 

Thier is nuthing wrong with AF's (cept the hawk) it is all pilot error.

I have lost many many AF's, I fly all 8, yet to lose a vengance though.
Never have I lost 1 due to the Afterburner, infact it is because of the Afterburner that they survived most engadgments.



AF vs close range = AB
Good vs close range, not so good vs long range.

AF vs long range = MWD
Bad vs close range, less then average vs long range.


AB fit your AF, and avoid long range targets unless you can lure them to scram range eg. acceleration gate.

Know your enemy, Blaster cruisers often have web + good tracking, AC fits may be long range attackers in disguise.

Know you ship, the Hawk sucks. Use ships strenths and beware of its weakness.


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