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Mavi Gioia
Posted - 2011.03.10 08:41:00 - [331]
 

They need to be un-nerfed wrt to ship stats, resists/hp/fitting/hardpoints etc. Then their jump range needs to be increased to something reasonable, less than a capital-class ship for sure, but more than it is now, an actual useable range. I mean currently Black Ops need to make two covert cyno jumps to go about 5 or 6 systems in some cases. It's so bad.

Defenseless Miner
Posted - 2011.03.27 18:57:00 - [332]
 

any words on fanfest about bo?

Dunkler Imperator
N.F.H.P.
Eternal Evocations
Posted - 2011.03.27 20:24:00 - [333]
 

had my redeemer for 4 months and have never used it in combat. Why would i?no advantage to do it.


Buff em make em usefull for other than a support platform. and so i don't have to fit it with cargo expanders to get some distance with a gang.

RRNL
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.04 15:11:00 - [334]
 

new quen quote:

"For the fifth quarter in a row, electronic attack ships were the least flown ship group. The growth
in the number of titans being flown had led to them surpassing the number of black ops, with 472
titans and 449 black ops being piloted."

Ospie
Ransom and Kill
Core.Impulse
Posted - 2011.04.06 14:33:00 - [335]
 

Edited by: Ospie on 06/04/2011 14:44:56
As someone who actually uses my redeemer in combat whenever I can (which is still infrequently :() would really like to see a few changes made.

Don't really see the need for it to warp cloaked though.

I'd like to see:

- T2 resists (t2 ship bonuses in general improved)
- Longer jump range
- Nicer black ops skill bonus for all
- Bit of love for panthers / sins, definitely sins (fly redeemer myself and aside from the above issues I generally think it's ok)
- A little unrelated, but slightly different icon for covert cyno mod from regular cyno mod would be nice too (have lost a rapier before cause of this - AB/MWD got the love they needed and tbh the risk [per individual ship] is less w/ those)

As it is to get a real black ops gang going (not a bomber/recon briding BO's, but proper BOs) you want at least 4 heavy dps BOs (sorry sin :( ) since you really don't want to be sitting about in those expensive "shoot me cause I have little tank" ships for any amount of time. Trying to get enough people to hop in what's currently a bit of a gimmicky expensive gank ship at the same time can be tricky (before you even consider timezone / RL issues).

Anyway, I fully support any action that will improve the plight of these poor, though amazing, ships.

Solaris Avanger
Posted - 2011.04.10 01:23:00 - [336]
 

suported i want a sin that do something better than just cloack compared to a domi

Simeon Whiteheaven
Posted - 2011.04.11 18:49:00 - [337]
 

Black ops need some type of improvement, so I support this.

EnthusiGASM
Posted - 2011.04.12 02:09:00 - [338]
 


Spazz21
Rage For Order
Nihil-Obstat
Posted - 2011.04.12 04:15:00 - [339]
 

Due to the Fact there are more Titans then BOPs, I feel as there is a gapping hole in BOPs as they are easy to build but obviously have less demand then a 50billion isk ship.

Xtoveruss
Posted - 2011.04.15 17:57:00 - [340]
 

bump

Jaik7
Posted - 2011.04.16 00:31:00 - [341]
 

the ship is purely to fill a logistical niche that very few people have. that being, getting a bunch of warships into a cyno jammed system in order to cause chaos. it is already a very powerful tool, capable of putting extremly dangerous ships deep into hostile "secured" space.

but it sucks at face to face engagements. the thing loses to its t1 counterpart. that said, WHY ARE YOU USING A BLACK OPS AS A DIRECT FIRE WEAPON?!?

the black ops is not supposed to be seen. it is supposed to move around ships that make people pee their pants when they see them. does ccp have to remove all combat bonuses to get you to see that? given my understanding of the ship's role, it is working as intended.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.16 08:59:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: Spazz21
Due to the Fact there are more Titans then BOPs


Um, there are more Black Ops Battleships sold every month in Jita than there are titans in EVE. The QEN quote is the number of active hulls being used at the time the snapshot was taken, therefore it doesn't account for ships sitting in hangars while the owner is flying something else, or in SMAs, etc.

Because you can't dock a titan, more or less every character who owns one will have been sat in it at the time of the snapshot, whereas many of the blackops owners will have been flying around in other hulls.

Now, I don't disagree that the Blackops BSs are pretty underpowered and could do with some attention, but I thought I'd correct this misinterpretation of the data.

Alurie Santillian
Posted - 2011.04.16 15:18:00 - [343]
 

Yes it's a dead horse, but I'll bump it anyway. Yes, I am actually a BO pilot (BO V and all that).

A lot of people want BOs to be combat ships, but I simply want BOs to fulfill their role under a realistic set of in-game circumstances. Sure, they can fulfill their role in a limited fashion now, but only under ideal circumstance, which almost never present themselves. I won't get into individual race tweaks, though they could be a phase 2 of BO luv. In any case the class needs the following to become useful:

Non-Negotiable to Fulfill BO Role:
Covert cloak
o I suppose the expectation now is the BO pilot is supposed to portal people in then sit there cloaked and wait to portal them out. Wow, that's fun CCP! Remember this is a game, and us foolish players actually want to enjoy it.
About double the jump range
o The current range is not tactically significant.
Either a larger fuel bay or less fuel consumption to portal ships
o Bringing along a Blockade Runner should not be mandatory for a highly specialized convert strike force. As it stand now all this means is someone has to drag an alt along, which is just plain tedious.

Would be nice:
HPs equal to T1 and Force Recon resistance bonuses
T3 able to fit Covert Cyno (Tangentially related)


I don't think these changes will take a lot of recourses from a Dev perspective, and I can't see there being much argument to these changes.

Rosalina Sarinna
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2011.04.16 17:37:00 - [344]
 

Edited by: Rosalina Sarinna on 16/04/2011 17:39:11
Edited by: Rosalina Sarinna on 16/04/2011 17:37:57
I'll followup this last post just with the one suggestion;

Let Black Ops use Covert cloak, or some new Battleship version of it.

To be frank, it seems a bit silly that a BO has all the electronics and capability to create a covert portal, but can't even form a covert cloak around itself. Surely that would require less power/energy than creating a covert jump portal! We are, after all, talking about not only creating the portal, but cloaking the portal. I can't see how a portal would be easier to cloak than a battleship sized object seen as the object is just a 'solid shape' whereas a portal is a flux of energy the cloak has to adapt to or 'fight' with to maintain the cloak.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.04.16 18:47:00 - [345]
 

I actually quite like my Sin as it is, and wouldn't propose any major changes there. When the idea for T2 BS was first floated aeons ago however, I did hope sexy looking for a jump-drive capable blasterthron... though, on second thoughts, with blasters as they are these days - *lol*

Personally I see two possible routes: either make them worth the cost of acquiring in the first place i.e. beef up combat abilities e.t.c e.t.c

or,

accept them for what they are, but knock the build costs down signficantly (250M ish and I'd use it more often).

Either way, more jump range is also needed.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.04.17 02:45:00 - [346]
 

DEAR OP

Quit your whining and raging and changing this topic on people. Repost with the original proposal now.


oh and it took 3 years for rockets.

Finally it's only a lost cause if you do something like this, so stop your *****ing and make it proper again. EvE never gave respect to anyone who backed downed and cried about it.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.17 12:29:00 - [347]
 

Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 20/04/2011 12:25:18
bump

Snaketzu
Gallente
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2011.05.04 21:02:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade

Personally I see two possible routes: either make them worth the cost of acquiring in the first place i.e. beef up combat abilities e.t.c e.t.c

or,

accept them for what they are, but knock the build costs down signficantly (250M ish and I'd use it more often).

Either way, more jump range is also needed.


This. Understood that they are niche ships, but currently the niche is so small they are more of a curiosity than something useful. A little love would help.

suptrader
Posted - 2011.05.08 18:47:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Hemmo Paskiainen
Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 31/12/2010 15:35:18
Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 11/10/2010 11:38:11
Changes needed:
Sin:
-Sin needs 2000 base power more, a lol 8800 (ccp did u forgot a 1 in front of the 8800? redeemer has 17000 base power) base power on a semi hybrid boat is fail
-Remove all turret slots and replace 5 % hybrid damage bonus for a 25m3 drone bandwidth usage bonus per gallente bs level and increase max drone usage from 5 to 10 (max dps 950 with ogre's).
-Change agility bonus to a 7,5% bonus in max velocity of drone flight time
-Give sin the special bonus of scooping drones from 7,500 meters and deploying drones at 5,000 meter.

Redeemer:
-Need a 30% boost in large pulse damage and a reduction from 125m3 drone to 25m3 drone bandwidth)

Widow:
-Needs a 200 cpu boost
-Needs 25% boost in torpedo dps
-Needs a slight boost in cap recharge 10-20%

Panther:
-Needs 1 extra mid slot
-Needs a 40% boost in projectile dps and a reduction from 125m3 to 25m5 drone bandwidth
-Velocity bonus need to be changed in a 10% fall off bonus per Black Op level

Changes in general:
-Range increase from max 4,5ly to 6,5ly
-Range formula should get an exception that the Black Op can always jump 1 system jump. Some systems with + 4,5ly (10ly-20ly, A to B with +4,5ly range need to be done manually in the current state)
-Standard fuel bay increase from 1000m3 to 3000m3
-A bonus should be given to the fuel bay amount when a Black Op Jump Portal is fitted, it will add a additional X amount of m3 of fuel bay per black op level, example adds 3000m3 to fuel bay per Black Op level.
-The Black Op Jump Portal should give a 10% reduction in fuel usage of that module per Black Op level. Currently a recon that bridges uses 1500-1600 fuel while only 6666 fits in the fuel bay

new:
-All bo should use same type of fuel.



Suported, exept the range boost.

Fara Naava
Posted - 2011.05.08 23:11:00 - [350]
 

Edited by: Fara Naava on 08/05/2011 23:11:13
Something else: How would everyone feel about splitting blackops into two versions ?

-one "combat black ops" with no portal for others, but those nice t2 resists + all the grid + combat boni that were proposed

-one "support black ops" with increased jump range + much bigger fuel bay + (maybe some kind of command bonus stuff)

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.10 09:28:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Fara Naava
Edited by: Fara Naava on 08/05/2011 23:11:13
Something else: How would everyone feel about splitting blackops into two versions ?

-one "combat black ops" with no portal for others, but those nice t2 resists + all the grid + combat boni that were proposed

-one "support black ops" with increased jump range + much bigger fuel bay + (maybe some kind of command bonus stuff)


Good idea, would deffinaly solve some issue's. Most T2 ships have 2 or more variants, exept the black op's.

Sarina Rhoda
Posted - 2011.05.10 10:42:00 - [352]
 

IIRC the QEN works by taking a snapshot at a given moment of how many of a certain ship is being piloted. BOps are an extremely niche ship and will only be flown when being used as apposed to titans that have to have a pilot in them at all times.

My point ?
a) The QENs snapshot can be borderline useless as it doesnt take into account length of time the ship is flown or the number of a particular ship owned. I am pretty sure if you counted up the number of Bops owned it would exceed titans by a extreme margin.
b) Quoting QEN as a reason to buff BOps is a flawed argument.

However I am in favour of buffing BOps, but not their base stats. I would only buff their jump range and either decrease the amount of fuel it takes to bridge people or the increase the amount of fuel they can hold in their fuel bay.
The fact they cant bridge a proper recon fleet to their max jump range due to fuel limitations I think is what cripples them the most.

They are and should be IMO a mini titan (overpriced and only really useful for bridging gangs on-top of people) and should relatively weak for any type of solo work.

TLDR: ONLY buff jump range and either increase their fuel bay or decrease the amount of fuel they require to jump

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.11 05:32:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
IIRC the QEN works by taking a snapshot at a given moment of how many of a certain ship is being piloted. BOps are an extremely niche ship and will only be flown when being used as apposed to titans that have to have a pilot in them at all times.

My point ?
a) The QENs snapshot can be borderline useless as it doesnt take into account length of time the ship is flown or the number of a particular ship owned. I am pretty sure if you counted up the number of Bops owned it would exceed titans by a extreme margin.
b) Quoting QEN as a reason to buff BOps is a flawed argument.




Excellent point Sarina. You know what they say, 90% of people blindly use statistics without actually knowing what they mean Very Happy


Samillian
Posted - 2011.05.11 07:54:00 - [354]
 


Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.12 01:58:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Alurie Santillian
Yes it's a dead horse, but I'll bump it anyway. Yes, I am actually a BO pilot (BO V and all that).

A lot of people want BOs to be combat ships, but I simply want BOs to fulfill their role under a realistic set of in-game circumstances. Sure, they can fulfill their role in a limited fashion now, but only under ideal circumstance, which almost never present themselves. I won't get into individual race tweaks, though they could be a phase 2 of BO luv. In any case the class needs the following to become useful:

Non-Negotiable to Fulfill BO Role:
Covert cloak
o I suppose the expectation now is the BO pilot is supposed to portal people in then sit there cloaked and wait to portal them out. Wow, that's fun CCP! Remember this is a game, and us foolish players actually want to enjoy it.
About double the jump range
o The current range is not tactically significant.
Either a larger fuel bay or less fuel consumption to portal ships
o Bringing along a Blockade Runner should not be mandatory for a highly specialized convert strike force. As it stand now all this means is someone has to drag an alt along, which is just plain tedious.

Would be nice:
HPs equal to T1 and Force Recon resistance bonuses
T3 able to fit Covert Cyno (Tangentially related)


I don't think these changes will take a lot of recourses from a Dev perspective, and I can't see there being much argument to these changes.


I'm on the fence on this one, as I have never piloted one, but just playing devil's advocate, I would like to ask if anyone has considered the unexpected side effects of these buffs?

I mean, I think buffs to other ships in the past, though meaning well and did fix the problems with the ships that they were meant to fix, caused shifts in the play balance in the game, which were unintentional (for example, I think somebody in the forums once mentioned that suicide ganking is now much easier and cost effective for the ganker than before).

I would then hypothesize that allowing a BO ship to use covert ops cloak would make it the griefing ship of choice.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.05.12 11:53:00 - [356]
 

Im just going to leave this here for the people who think black ops cant fight toe to toe, you just need to have the right setup.

As for what boosts I would like to see for them I dont think a covert cloak is going to be helpful, its supposed to be a support ship not some solo gank mobile.

However I certainly wouldnt argue against boosts in their tank, DPS and jump range or against a substantial increase in their fuel bay size because that increases their ability to do what they were supposed to do in the first place, to support and enhance covert gangs.

Eperor
Posted - 2011.05.12 13:08:00 - [357]
 

Propolsal to create new module or ability to black ops to see cloucked ships on grid and be able to warp to them and declouck, that wil give defenders chane proteckt agenst afk clouckers hoo siting in systems days and weeks .

Trin Javidan
Posted - 2011.05.19 12:02:00 - [358]
 

Makes 2 classes with a damage variant and a logistic type would be perfect

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.05.19 14:35:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote:


THERE ARE MORE TITANS THEN BLACK OPS!




Only because of this!

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.19 14:43:00 - [360]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 19/05/2011 14:45:10
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 19/05/2011 14:44:32
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 19/05/2011 14:43:45
Originally by: Cyberus
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote:


THERE ARE MORE TITANS THEN BLACK OPS!




Only because of this!


As you seem to be the kind of person who only pays attention to the headlines, I'll bring you up to speed on this, (apologies for the lack of credit to the one on the thread who originally cited this fact) -- this statistic is completelyMISLEADINGand already shown to be a a red herring. If you have a Titan, you most likely will leave it piloted, as you cannot dock. So the figures in the QEN are inflated (QEN does state this in fine print). There is, with a great degree of certainty, more black ops than titans.



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