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Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2010.05.07 15:51:00 - [271]
 

walls of text and lots of arguing on semantics itt but when I fly blasterships in game they seem perfectly fine as close range damage dealers, which is their purpose, so not supported.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.05.07 16:09:00 - [272]
 

So to recap;

People aren't fond of the idea of increasing blaster tracking because that will result in little, if any, practical change in their performance.

A straight damage boost is desirable, if only to give us a reason to fit and use them over pulse lasers, however CCP are very leery about allowing fits to top the 1200 DPS 'cap' that seems to exist on most all-gank BS configurations.

A range increase would turn Blasters into Autocannons OR Pulses.

A tracking bonus on all blaster hulls isn't desirable because it would result in all blaster boats having less flavor and secondly a tracking boost would not be helpful.

Reducing blaster fitting requirements is a neat idea but does CCP really want the kind of monstrous EHP coupled with a full rack of neutron blaster II's? I doubt it (despite that being the whole Gallente combat ethos, apparently)

Adding 'special effects' such as shield/armor piercing attributes probably isn't doable because the game code isn't smart enough to handle it at this point.

Adding a third damage type, or even giving them a fixed omni-damage spectrum.. well, I haven't actually heard anyone refute that idea.


Generally speaking it seems to me like the whole combat doctrine CCP wrote for the Gallente faction is a bad afterthought, something they were grubbing around for late at night when they'd already worked out what all the other factions were going to be after they realized "drones drones and more drones" weren't a realistic goal given the technical constraints they had to work within. Then they tried forcing this square peg into the round hole of the game mechanics and guess what? It didn't work.


Mortimer Civeri
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.05.07 16:43:00 - [273]
 

Well, after carefully pondering this topic, I cannot support an across the board buff to Hybrid weapons in general, and Blasters specifically. What is needed is a total rethink of the Gallente race. Their speed is atrocious for the weapons they favor. Gallente are supposed to be the Jason Voorhes, of EVE, instead we get Star Wars kid.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.07 17:26:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: Mortimer Civeri
Well, after carefully pondering this topic, I cannot support an across the board buff to Hybrid weapons in general, and Blasters specifically. What is needed is a total rethink of the Gallente race. Their speed is atrocious for the weapons they favor. Gallente are supposed to be the Jason Voorhes, of EVE, instead we get Star Wars kid.


Why just gallente , blasters are as much caldari weapons as gallente.

Mortimer Civeri
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.05.07 17:59:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Mortimer Civeri
Well, after carefully pondering this topic, I cannot support an across the board buff to Hybrid weapons in general, and Blasters specifically. What is needed is a total rethink of the Gallente race. Their speed is atrocious for the weapons they favor. Gallente are supposed to be the Jason Voorhes, of EVE, instead we get Star Wars kid.


Why just gallente , blasters are as much caldari weapons as gallente.


No, Blasters are not "just as much" a Caldari weapon, rails are a Caldari weapon. Caldari are fine, and before you go blubbering on about how rails need a boost, and the Rohks DPS sucks, consider this. Caldari fit their "style" of warfare. They are optimized for sniping at long range, and rails compliment their "style". Gallente "style" is to bash you over the head with a big hammer. You can't do that in ships that are the second slowest in the universe, yet if you fit them for speed you basically are made of glass. I can understand where CCP wanted to go with the concept of Gallente, their execution of it has fallen flat. I don't know maybe a 5% bonus to AB/MWD speed boost per level, instead of a ROF bonus.

Min Err
Posted - 2010.05.07 18:05:00 - [276]
 

Wow 10 pages , have Ccp even acknowledge that there is a problem with hybrid/gallente ??
I have been watching this thred since it started and it seem like its just been ignored by ccp and the csm

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.07 18:12:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Ogogov
So to recap;

People aren't fond of the idea of increasing blaster tracking because that will result in little, if any, practical change in their performance.

A straight damage boost is desirable, if only to give us a reason to fit and use them over pulse lasers, however CCP are very leery about allowing fits to top the 1200 DPS 'cap' that seems to exist on most all-gank BS configurations.

A range increase would turn Blasters into Autocannons OR Pulses.

A tracking bonus on all blaster hulls isn't desirable because it would result in all blaster boats having less flavor and secondly a tracking boost would not be helpful.

Reducing blaster fitting requirements is a neat idea but does CCP really want the kind of monstrous EHP coupled with a full rack of neutron blaster II's? I doubt it (despite that being the whole Gallente combat ethos, apparently)

Adding 'special effects' such as shield/armor piercing attributes probably isn't doable because the game code isn't smart enough to handle it at this point.

Adding a third damage type, or even giving them a fixed omni-damage spectrum.. well, I haven't actually heard anyone refute that idea.


Generally speaking it seems to me like the whole combat doctrine CCP wrote for the Gallente faction is a bad afterthought, something they were grubbing around for late at night when they'd already worked out what all the other factions were going to be after they realized "drones drones and more drones" weren't a realistic goal given the technical constraints they had to work within. Then they tried forcing this square peg into the round hole of the game mechanics and guess what? It didn't work.


Gallente were supposed to be big drone boats with close range dps to compliment. Then drones were nerfed. Then they were nerfed again. Then blasters were nerfed. Now Gallente suck because they were over-nerfed.

The problem with rails is specifically Gallente. Rails on Gallente ships don't have the range to account for the low DPS. The problem with blasters is specifically Gallente. They have a major range deficit for a small DPS increase.

cadermerin
Posted - 2010.05.07 18:28:00 - [278]
 

about time they got fixed

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.07 19:06:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Mortimer Civeri

No, Blasters are not "just as much" a Caldari weapon, rails are a Caldari weapon. Caldari are fine, and before you go blubbering on about how rails need a boost, and the Rohks DPS sucks, consider this. Caldari fit their "style" of warfare. They are optimized for sniping at long range, and rails compliment their "style". Gallente "style" is to bash you over the head with a big hammer. You can't do that in ships that are the second slowest in the universe, yet if you fit them for speed you basically are made of glass. I can understand where CCP wanted to go with the concept of Gallente, their execution of it has fallen flat. I don't know maybe a 5% bonus to AB/MWD speed boost per level, instead of a ROF bonus.

lol sure , caldari for sniping is fine ,in your dreams maybe.
Amarr does it much better. There is hardly any reason to do less than acceptable dmg at longer ranges than the other races.

Mortimer Civeri
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.05.07 20:03:00 - [280]
 

Edited by: Mortimer Civeri on 07/05/2010 20:14:55
Originally by: Naomi Knight

lol sure , caldari for sniping is fine ,in your dreams maybe.
Amarr does it much better. There is hardly any reason to do less than acceptable dmg at longer ranges than the other races.


Fine, if lasers are better, then fit lasers on your Rohk. Simple Rolling Eyes Have fun burning out T2 laser crystals trying to shoot past 180km when a Rohk with rails can get there with non T2 ammo.Twisted Evil

Seriously, CCP has caved on issues of power creep by whines such as this for far to long. As it stands now Amarr and Minmatar weapons are ballanced. Since hybrids are two races weapons, simply buffing all hybrids will cause balance issues between two races.

EDIT: one buff with twice the headache, balancing it all later.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.07 20:43:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: Mortimer Civeri
Edited by: Mortimer Civeri on 07/05/2010 20:14:55
Originally by: Naomi Knight

lol sure , caldari for sniping is fine ,in your dreams maybe.
Amarr does it much better. There is hardly any reason to do less than acceptable dmg at longer ranges than the other races.


Fine, if lasers are better, then fit lasers on your Rohk. Simple Rolling Eyes Have fun burning out T2 laser crystals trying to shoot past 180km when a Rohk with rails can get there with non T2 ammo.Twisted Evil

Seriously, CCP has caved on issues of power creep by whines such as this for far to long. As it stands now Amarr and Minmatar weapons are ballanced. Since hybrids are two races weapons, simply buffing all hybrids will cause balance issues between two races.

EDIT: one buff with twice the headache, balancing it all later.


... and bringing the discussion back to fixing blasters, which is a far easier discussion than how to fix rails. Blasters need:

1. Easier fitting so the ships can fit more tank.
2. Faster ships.
3. More damage.
4. More range.

Pick one or make some combination that brings them to balance with the other weapons in the game.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2010.05.07 20:55:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Bagehi

1. Easier fitting so the ships can fit more tank.
3. More damage.



That would be my pick.

Mortimer Civeri
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.05.07 20:59:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
... and bringing the discussion back to fixing blasters, which is a far easier discussion than how to fix rails. Blasters need:

1. Easier fitting so the ships can fit more tank.
2. Faster ships.
3. More damage.
4. More range.

Pick one or make some combination that brings them to balance with the other weapons in the game.


Well 1. and 3. are out, since that will buff blaster Caldari ships too, and 4. will just make it like auto cannons(and another stealth buff for Caldari, with their range bouni). That leaves only, Faster ships, as the buff for Gallente, according to your list.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.05.07 21:35:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe

Honestly have not gotten a chance to freshen up on the entirety of the thread however I think this statement pretty much sums up the most reasonable solution to the issue as a whole.

I do not think that the issue lies in blasters inherently. The issue lies in the usage of blasters not specificly their individual stats as a module compared to other weapon types of "similar" ranges.

I think that the entire line of blaster oriented ships needs to be re-evaluated and have their sig, speed, and agility revamped to allow them to expand their engagement envelope w/o overpowering their primary weapon system compared to other races comparable weapons. Some minor slot changes/additions may potentially be needed as well, entirely another debate though.


See, this is why i think its so funny that I am attacked. In that thing that I keep pointing you all towards, this is what I have to say on the issue

Quote:
Blaster ships have an interesting problem. They are designed as solo/small gang ships that are to be very close range. But they do not have any advantages besides their damage output in terms of raw statistics. This makes little to no sense, as was discussed earlier, the closer a ship gets to a solo ship, the better it gets by diversifying its abilities and strengths. Yet blaster ships are specialized towards damage output.

A very telling example of this can be seen by comparing the secondary aspects of Deimos with the Zealot. Even if we assume that the two are balanced with respect to primary strength in terms of damage dealing efficiency and hit points, the Deimos ought to be faster, have better signature radius, faster align times, better capacitor, faster locking times, and be harder to jam. Currently, it only wins on align times, jam difficulty, and very marginally on speed. The Zealot is so much smaller in sig radius than the Deimos that the entire tracking advantage from blasters over pulse lasers is eaten away when shooting at each other! For the most part this means that blaster ships need to get a lot smaller, lock faster, have better capacitor, and be even harder to jam than they are now in order for them to properly fill the role laid out for them.


Specifically I think the thorax should be one of the fastest and most agile cruisers, the Brutix should be brought up to teir 2 quality, the Hyperion made one of the fastest and most agile battleships, and the deimos be made into an even more specialized thorax(2000m/s, 105 sig, 7.5s/align w/ mdw)

But all that you folks see is "boost their damage"... Their damage and hit points really is not the problem.

I mean, for goodness sakes, right now, you can make a 28k EHP thorax with 550 DPS. That is strictly better than a 220 gank Rupture(500 DPS 27k EHP). The only problem is that the damned thorax can't ever get in range of anything to kill it.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.07 21:38:00 - [285]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 07/05/2010 21:39:24
Originally by: Mortimer Civeri
Originally by: Bagehi
... and bringing the discussion back to fixing blasters, which is a far easier discussion than how to fix rails. Blasters need:

1. Easier fitting so the ships can fit more tank.
2. Faster ships.
3. More damage.
4. More range.

Pick one or make some combination that brings them to balance with the other weapons in the game.


Well 1. and 3. are out, since that will buff blaster Caldari ships too, and 4. will just make it like auto cannons(and another stealth buff for Caldari, with their range bouni). That leaves only, Faster ships, as the buff for Gallente, according to your list.


Wait, who puts blasters on Caldari ships? And who worries about Caldari blaster fits being over powered? Hybrid Caldari ships get a range bonus and no tracking bonus and these amount to next to nothing when range starts at only a few km and tracking is an issue at that range. Even if you reduce the fitting requirements and increase the damage, no one in their right mind would put blasters on a Caldari ship if they can fly a Gallente ship.

@ Goum: like I said, you had some good ideas.

Jerick Ludhowe
Southern Cross Empire
Flying Dangerous
Posted - 2010.05.07 22:04:00 - [286]
 

Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe on 07/05/2010 22:16:05
Originally by: Goumindong


See, this is why i think its so funny that I am attacked. In that thing that I keep pointing you all towards, this is what I have to say on the issue

Specifically I think the thorax should be one of the fastest and most agile cruisers, the Brutix should be brought up to teir 2 quality, the Hyperion made one of the fastest and most agile battleships, and the deimos be made into an even more specialized thorax(2000m/s, 105 sig, 7.5s/align w/ mdw)

But all that you folks see is "boost their damage"... Their damage and hit points really is not the problem.

I mean, for goodness sakes, right now, you can make a 28k EHP thorax with 550 DPS. That is strictly better than a 220 gank Rupture(500 DPS 27k EHP). The only problem is that the damned thorax can't ever get in range of anything to kill it.




Awsome Goumindong, seems I see eye to eye with someone at last even if i'm opening myself into a flame target.

I think we should diagnose the primary problem ships and attempt to propose some non radical ideas to get the ball rolling on the blatant issue. Now I don't agree with all the stat changes that were posted in your ship revamp however I think there are many good ideas presented in it none the less.

So I'm going to try and propose some very simple changes, let me know if you agree or disagree.

Thorax: +speed, -mass, - sig
The thorax is in itself a great ship as goumindong pointed out when looking at raw stats however I do not think that it has the baseline ship stats needed to allow it to perform as intended.

Deimos: + cap, - sig
Not even going to get started with this one. We all know it's broke time to fix asap.

Brutix: -sig, + speed, +100 grid, +1 high slot, change all active tanking bonuses to 10%
Now the Brutix is not a bad ship, don't get me wrong here guys. The issue I have with the brutix is that it's most effective fitting does not even take advantage of it's repping bonus.. Now the Idea behind the added grid and high slot is i'm sure no surprise to anyone with half a brain. Lets get a gang mod + full rack of guns please!

Astarte: -sig, +speed, +high slot, mirrior 10% rep bonus change from brutix.
Just like the Deimos, I'm lost on how to make this an expensive low ehp ship good at close range combat however I've tried to at least make it viable in very small scale gangs. Reason for the high is the same as the Brutix, guns + gang mod please!

Now having far less BS fleet experiance I'm going to leave both the Hyperion and the Mega up to the more experianced posters. I will say that I think that after minor speed/agility tweaks and a 10% rep amount bonus the Hyperion will be one hell of a small gang monsters. Mega is already pretty good in my personal experiences however I'm sure there is something "wrong" with it.

Edit: Almost forgot one!

Enyo: +cpu
Now I know this is not designed as just a blaster boat however i think that it could use a small amount of cpu allowing it to fit dmg mods in certain setups.




Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.05.08 00:00:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Brutix:
i don't like the idea of a fast Brutix or Astarte.

The reason for this basically has to do with overlap into the realm of cruisers. If you make the Brutix fast then you can achieve cruiser speed/agility with BC type hit points. Even if its low BC type hit points. Don't get me wrong, you can, already and that is a problem. If the Thorax isn't going to have a range advantage on the Brutix then the Brutix and Astarte need to be slow.

The core concern for a battlecuiser is being a "heavy" cruiser. And so the speed of the Astarte and Brutix are only really necessary so long as they can catch BC's. And they pretty much can already. The problem with the Brutix is that it is simply not hardy enough compared to the other BC's

eliminator2
Gallente
Vindicated Blast.

Posted - 2010.05.08 08:43:00 - [288]
 

support for sexyness

Spugg Galdon
Posted - 2010.05.08 11:37:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe on 07/05/2010 22:16:05

change all active tanking bonuses to 10%




10% is too much. 9% is a much better figure. Also the rep amount bonus needs to be changed to rep amount and remote rep recieved

Temi Heliz
Posted - 2010.05.08 12:09:00 - [290]
 

Agreed, a Brutix shouldn't have cruiser agility/speed.

Blaster boats have more lows than meds. Sounds fair. But you need speed and agility to be efficient with blaster boats; so it's preferable to have:

a passive shield tank: not enough meds considering scram & web is quite compulsory.
an active armor tanking: the rigs screw your speed, and cap injector is needed

Could we leave blasters in their current form, and balance:

- Blasters ships slot layout / bonuses (active armor bonus) ?
- Armor rig downsides ?

Decreasing the mass of these ships would be nice too, but might be too difficult to implement, without creating nano-overpowered boats.



Spugg Galdon
Posted - 2010.05.08 14:16:00 - [291]
 

Yes, balance the blaster boats themselves first. They should be very fast, maybe even the fastest ships in their class, but only in a straight line. Give them a lot of inertia or something so they can charge at enemy ships at very high speed but cannot turn very tightly. This will mean that minnie ships retain their racial feel of very high agility and speed.

Mortimer Civeri
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.05.08 16:34:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Wait, who puts blasters on Caldari ships? And who worries about Caldari blaster fits being over powered? Hybrid Caldari ships get a range bonus and no tracking bonus and these amount to next to nothing when range starts at only a few km and tracking is an issue at that range. Even if you reduce the fitting requirements and increase the damage, no one in their right mind would put blasters on a Caldari ship if they can fly a Gallente ship.


Think on this buttercup: Caldari won't hasve to gimp their tank to put nanos and overdrives in the lows, to get their speed up. Also still able to put mwd/ab, tackling mods, and a respectable tank in their large midslot layout. As for tracking clicking aproach or keep at range virtually cancles out tracking issues. Therefore buffing blasters is a stealth buff for Caldari, not Gallente.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.08 19:23:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: Mortimer Civeri
Originally by: Bagehi
Wait, who puts blasters on Caldari ships? And who worries about Caldari blaster fits being over powered? Hybrid Caldari ships get a range bonus and no tracking bonus and these amount to next to nothing when range starts at only a few km and tracking is an issue at that range. Even if you reduce the fitting requirements and increase the damage, no one in their right mind would put blasters on a Caldari ship if they can fly a Gallente ship.


Think on this buttercup: Caldari won't hasve to gimp their tank to put nanos and overdrives in the lows, to get their speed up. Also still able to put mwd/ab, tackling mods, and a respectable tank in their large midslot layout. As for tracking clicking aproach or keep at range virtually cancles out tracking issues. Therefore buffing blasters is a stealth buff for Caldari, not Gallente.


Omg I havent read such stupidity in a long time.
can put nanos and overdrives in to the lows? realy?:O come on 1-2 lows just go to reactor controls and it have left with 2-3 for magstabs not nano/overdrives.
Large midslot layout?:O where you need 1 mwd 2 tackler gear 1 cap booster and you left with 1 med slot.
Any blaster boost wouldnt make caldari hybrid boats op with blaster fits.
If you realy think caldari blaster ships are that awesome then bring out your blaster fitted eagle for a trip.
I bet you never have flown any caldari ships.

PhantomTrojan
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.09 05:09:00 - [294]
 

/signed

Resha Tsvort
Posted - 2010.05.09 10:28:00 - [295]
 

Signed

van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2010.05.09 11:16:00 - [296]
 

Edited by: van Uber on 09/05/2010 11:16:52
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Mortimer Civeri
Originally by: Bagehi
Wait, who puts blasters on Caldari ships? And who worries about Caldari blaster fits being over powered? Hybrid Caldari ships get a range bonus and no tracking bonus and these amount to next to nothing when range starts at only a few km and tracking is an issue at that range. Even if you reduce the fitting requirements and increase the damage, no one in their right mind would put blasters on a Caldari ship if they can fly a Gallente ship.


Think on this buttercup: Caldari won't hasve to gimp their tank to put nanos and overdrives in the lows, to get their speed up. Also still able to put mwd/ab, tackling mods, and a respectable tank in their large midslot layout. As for tracking clicking aproach or keep at range virtually cancles out tracking issues. Therefore buffing blasters is a stealth buff for Caldari, not Gallente.



Omg I havent read such stupidity in a long time.
can put nanos and overdrives in to the lows? realy?:O come on 1-2 lows just go to reactor controls and it have left with 2-3 for magstabs not nano/overdrives.
Large midslot layout?:O where you need 1 mwd 2 tackler gear 1 cap booster and you left with 1 med slot.
Any blaster boost wouldnt make caldari hybrid boats op with blaster fits.
If you realy think caldari blaster ships are that awesome then bring out your blaster fitted eagle for a trip.
I bet you never have flown any caldari ships.


Didn't you know? Caldari ships can do everything, simultaneously too.

danvill
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.05.10 11:55:00 - [297]
 

Edited by: danvill on 10/05/2010 11:55:56
so if cc donít like the idea of a T1 bs doing more than 1200 dps , they could always make it easier for gallente to reach than other races. one of our biggest problems is we have to be a glass cannon to get the little dps advantage (on paper) over other races. so let say they change our damage mods so we get the same dps from 2 damage mods as we get from 3 now .(thatís one lows slot saved for extra plate , resis , nano W/e) and adjust the penalty so that stacking 3 is like stacking 4 now so unless your not planning on taking any damage there is no real point stacking a third damage mod over a plate/resis. just an idea
QuestionQuestion

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.10 15:02:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: van Uber

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Mortimer Civeri
Originally by: Bagehi
Wait, who puts blasters on Caldari ships?


Think on this buttercup: Caldari won't hasve to gimp their tank to put nanos and overdrives in the lows, to get their speed up. Also still able to put mwd/ab, tackling mods, and a respectable tank in their large midslot layout. As for tracking clicking aproach or keep at range virtually cancles out tracking issues. Therefore buffing blasters is a stealth buff for Caldari, not Gallente.



Omg I havent read such stupidity in a long time.


Didn't you know? Caldari ships can do everything, simultaneously too.


Caldari hybrid ships have an "I win" button, that's why almost no one flies them.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.05.10 18:05:00 - [299]
 

I notice some people discuss improving speed, agility, and weapon tracking.

I believe those attributes should be for AC ships. Blaster ships should still be slow and cumbersome, they just need to have high damage as the main advantage over all other weapons.

Cause if you improve blaster ships in those other ways, then the next thing we'll see is AC/minmatar 10+ page threads calling for fixes.

We should never lose focus of the relationships between 3 close range gun types. Each have advantages and disadvantages, which need to be emphasized, not made more similar.

Mortimer Civeri
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.05.10 18:39:00 - [300]
 

Edited by: Mortimer Civeri on 10/05/2010 18:42:19
Well let's see. A Ferox can probably go 1387 m/s with 3 overdrive II, and a DC II in the lows while fitting 6 heavy neutron II and a lol standard launcher II. A Cyclone can outrun it at ~1750 m/s with the same low slot fitting. Ok, lets look at the armor tankers. The king of the blaster boats the Brutix is the slowest of the bunch at 982 m/s that is with thermal, kinetic, and explosive hardener II's, a DC II, and 3 medium trimark II's. Oh, and you have to fit a RCU in the last low since you can't fit 7 heavy neutron II's and a Y-T8 MWD. The Prophecy barely breaks 1000 m/s With thermal, kinetic, explosive hardener II's, two EANM II's, an ANP II, and 3 medium trimark II's. (BTW I'm trying to keep this all tier I so all you 'apples and oranges' guys can shut up.) Everyone got the same mid-slot fittings with Y-T8 MWD, web, and scram. The Ferox, and Cyclone got 2 Invulnerability II's, with EM II, Thermal II, and CDFE II rigs. The Brutix added a Cap recharger II, while the Prophecy had no spare mid-slot to fit anything else. Of course the Prophecy tops them all with ~74k EHP, then surprisingly the Ferox with ~54k, Brutix with ~52k, and Cyclone with ~42k. The Ferox is able to dictate the engagement with it's speed, and can run in and blast away, run out and recharge a bit of it's shields and run back in again. The only tier one BC able to do that better is the Cyclone.


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