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HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.19 02:14:00 - [31]
 

its a business decision plain and simple. What they need to do is make level 5 worthwhile by throwing on a 10% success bonus. While allowing the lower skills to complete. What ccp will do is add more skills along the way and spread things out and simply existing stuff u might even find sub specilisation ie sleeper salvaging, hacking etc might get level 5 pre reqs. Or tech 3 salvagers, hackers and so forth

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.10.19 02:35:00 - [32]
 

Exploration is one of the most underused proffessions in the game and as a result the lootz tend to be worth quite a bit due to the extreme rarity so profits are abnormaly high and supply abnormaly low. CCP want to get moar people into exploration so that the content will be used past the very small group of dedicated farmers (I used to be one till I got bored of making billions from it) so they are now cutting the reqs so its not such a hit on your skill queue. Of course this means that what is now a ludicrously profitable career for the very dedicated few will fall a bit into mearly a profitable career for the masses. Now go figure why we have the type of responces we have had in this thread as noone who isn't already rich wants the gravy train to end. It will be good for eve as a whole though as it will mean moar stuff to sell on the market and moar people using them in pvp or pve. ugh

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2009.10.19 03:35:00 - [33]
 




Get a movie dictionary...
It was actually pretty awesome :)

I have much sympathy for the expressed sentiment.
Old school exploration was fun, painful but fun.

For quite some time I thought to have found my calling.
Probing in syndicate 0.0 or empire lowsec, the cat and mouse with the local reds, brought quite some tense moments and social interaction.

Yeah sure the reds are still out there, but everyone can scan down a site so quickly now and the signal strength cover from deadspace sites is gone, so that the risk reward scheme really dipped to far to the site of the hunters.

I find no pleasure in pew pew just for pew pews sake.
Violence is always a mean to some goal.
So I never moved to lowsec or 0.0 in search for targets and always tried to evade combat.

Some would call that carebear. I call it simply risk awareness. Carebearism is defined by risk avoidance, defined by choosing the most optimal route to reach ones target.

With the upcoming changes to cloaking, overheating and exploration,
there will be even less income from exploration sites and an even improved risk for the explorer outside of highsec.

After already enabling every noob pirate to probe like a pro, this change will give them:
a) further motivation to hunt explorers by providing access to the phatz (cans) on site,
b) cloaking for free
c) overheating without any tangible time investment.

The issue is not the balance between older and younger pilots,
the problem is one of pure numbers and the balance between the few and the many.
If you boost the abilities of the many to confront the few in a given field of activity, sooner or later the few will be gone either by choice or natural selection.

So in the end there will be even less people active in lowsec that follow any activity, besides pirating. *shrugs*

Oh well I am still in longterm stasis anyways :)


This is why I stoped going to low sec and npc 0.0 space as I to liked the cloak and dager feel of it. But now sadly most of the balls are in the hunters pockets and it is no longer worth my time.

I just run and production corp in high sec now with some short term deployments into wormholes.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.19 03:35:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Lady Aja

What on earth was you guys thinking?

dumbing down eve YET again FTL!


Just quoting this. Maybe you will realize the irony of these two statements next to each other.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.19 04:28:00 - [35]
 

everyone has different approach. Remembering ccp want mroe people in 00 so lower skills get more players out there, change the whole sov system, mroe players means more targets pvpers should be fully supporting all these moves really. Ships replaced faster mroe pew pew less hunting though people that want to be hidden still have options

ElanMorin6
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.10.19 04:40:00 - [36]
 

look at all the bitter vets in this thread.


To hell with all of you. Making the game accessable to new players is a GOOD thing. Maybe we can get some of the rediculous capship prereqs nerfed next.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.19 04:59:00 - [37]
 

for the bitter mains really they need to get on with it , ccp are going to introduce full range of t3 ships yet meaning more skill tree like they have done before and probably sub spec hacking, salvage skills and modules t3 components and all on top of that

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.10.19 06:26:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: ElanMorin6
look at all the bitter vets in this thread.


To hell with all of you. Making the game accessable to new players is a GOOD thing. Maybe we can get some of the rediculous capship prereqs nerfed next.


Yeah, that's what this game needs, a whole bunch of ADD noobs in capships.

But yeah, that's the direction ccp is moving in, sadly.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.19 06:34:00 - [39]
 

actually i think they call em goons. They are moung the best in eve- nah the ADD types can get thier console and hopefully PC fix with dust 514. So eve caters to everyone

SupaKudoRio
Posted - 2009.10.19 07:22:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 19/10/2009 07:23:13
Shocked *goes to buy Thermodynamics book for all accounts* ♥

Originally by: Qui Shon
Yeah, that's what this game needs, a whole bunch of ADD noobs in capships.


I'll take that capship killmail if you don't want it... Very Happy

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.19 07:42:00 - [41]
 

more use of overload will boost nanite paste sales a thought

ASR Briggs
Posted - 2009.10.19 07:43:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: ASR Briggs on 19/10/2009 07:43:12
If you look carefully at this thread, you can see two very distinct groups:

The people who have trained for combat and want the best of both worlds, yelling and screaming that explorers should be less elitist.

The people who have chosen the exploration path, trained hard for it (and sacrificed many other skills in the process), and now find they have a bunch of worthless skills (survey 5 anyone?) and their profession cheapened beyond belief.

Not exactly hard to see who's in the right here.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.10.19 08:29:00 - [43]
 

"Cloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics lev 4 ( was 5)"

faster skilled macro ravens... yay... it's not like they're older than 1 month anyways, at least all 6 i killed last week

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2009.10.19 08:31:00 - [44]
 

I disagree with reducing pre reqs for Hack and Arch. I'm sure isk farmers will love it though. How about we keep these lucrative professions professional? IE make them for dedicated pilots who are willing to put in the training time.

Keeps the riff raff and rabble at bay. It's also a larger blow to farmers who lose characters trained for these.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.19 08:50:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Zeba
Exploration is one of the most underused professions in the game and as a result the lootz tend to be worth quite a bit due to the extreme rarity so profits are abnormaly high and supply abnormaly low. ..

What are you talking about?
The exploration channel has 200-300 people in it on a normal day, when help holds 800-1000 people. Underused profession?

And please tell me about the rare lootz.
Decryptors or Interfaces for Invention? Yeah sure.. prices for the endproduct skyrocketed over the last years.. we need to increase supply immediatly!
Sleeper stuff for Reverse Engineering? That's the logistics and droprate of salvage, which is the bottleneck there.. not finding the damn holes and the sites..
Which rare and expensive loot are you talking about?

Originally by: Zeba
CCP want to get moar people into exploration so that the content will be used past the very small group of dedicated farmers (I used to be one till I got bored of making billions from it) so they are now cutting the reqs so its not such a hit on your skill queue. Of course this means that what is now a ludicrously profitable career for the very dedicated few will fall a bit into mearly a profitable career for the masses.

You're talking nullsec stuff here in an alliance.. know what? Players who are in high sec wont come to low/nullsec if they can be probed down within 30secs in a site they just want to exploit for the extreme isk if they're not part of such an alliance... get real.

Originally by: Zeba
Now go figure why we have the type of responses we have had in this thread as noone who isn't already rich wants the gravy train to end. It will be good for eve as a whole though as it will mean moar stuff to sell on [the market and moar people using them in pvp or pve. ugh

As I already said.. then lower prereqs for everything across the board..
Battleships in 1 hour, Marauders in 2 days.. Titans within a week.
More people earlier in bigger gear means more and better pvp/pve, right?
It will be much more fun for all of us this way.
All can do all.
Yeah.

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.10.19 09:12:00 - [46]
 

CCP fails once again.

Tbh i just will concider next time if it worth totrain some skills to lvl5 to get some new toy/professoin. think it will be simply to just wait up for the next expansion and get that for less skill training.

This game become more noobtard playing ground.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.10.19 09:13:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
What are you talking about?
The exploration channel has 200-300 people in it on a normal day, when help holds 800-1000 people. Underused profession?
The fw militia channels have around that much on average and we stuggle to form a 20 man gang at the best of times. All channels have idlers in them as all you do is merge it to local or corp and it never goes away. Hell I'm usualy in eve radio and I haven't tuned into that in ages.

Originally by: Tres Farmer
And please tell me about the rare lootz.
Decryptors or Interfaces for Invention? Yeah sure.. prices for the endproduct skyrocketed over the last years.. we need to increase supply immediatly!
Sleeper stuff for Reverse Engineering? That's the logistics and droprate of salvage, which is the bottleneck there.. not finding the damn holes and the sites..
Which rare and expensive loot are you talking about?
I can make tens of millions a day using a shield tanked rifter with a core probe launcher to farm gistii mods and it only gets better the lower sec status you go. Where do you think all the deadspace stuff that sells for zillions comes from?

Originally by: Tres Farmer
You're talking nullsec stuff here in an alliance.. know what? Players who are in high sec wont come to low/nullsec if they can be probed down within 30secs in a site they just want to exploit for the extreme isk if they're not part of such an alliance... get real.
Wat? I ran exploration sites for nearly a year in nullsec and only had a few isolated instances of a player arseing themselves to scan me out. Unless you try to run a site in an outpost system noone is ever around.

Originally by: Tres Farmer
As I already said.. then lower prereqs for everything across the board..
Battleships in 1 hour, Marauders in 2 days.. Titans within a week.
More people earlier in bigger gear means more and better pvp/pve, right?
It will be much more fun for all of us this way.
All can do all.
Yeah.
Way to go from exploration and cloaks getting the reqs lowered and invalidating survey 5 (which btw unlocks moon probes!\o/) to getting into a titan in a week. Overexaggerate much? ugh

Amy Wang
Posted - 2009.10.19 09:36:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov
This thread is full of delicious tears.

When you needed to train for it, you cried about how high the skill requirements were.
Now that you've got it trained, you don't want anyone else having it easier than you.


Oh yes, so true...NOT

I never cried about those lvl 5 skill prerequisites not even to myself, I either trained the skill as a choice to improve my character in a certain direction or I didn't train a skill cause it wasnt worth it for me (like archeology ), again a choice I made.

Others made different choices with different consequences, now there wont be any choices or consequences with those skills anymore, boring and unfair, simple as that.

Whats next? t2 guns requiring lvl 4 skills instead of lvl 5 as well? slippery slope CCP, please dont go there

Jonna Red
Posted - 2009.10.19 09:55:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Zeba

I can make tens of millions a day using a shield tanked rifter with a core probe launcher to farm gistii mods and it only gets better the lower sec status you go. Where do you think all the deadspace stuff that sells for zillions comes from?


Nobody is actually complaining about the fact you can mount a core probe launcher right after character creation (you have to train astrometrics I though, maybe this is still to much entry barrier to exploration). You can do all kinds of combat plexes with that. The fact that Radar and Archeology skills are now devalued is what people hate. Those are specializations. I don't complain that I cannot harvest those ABC gravimetric sides I find in 0.0 because I cba to train Mining Barge V and Astrogeology V to get a Hulk. I have people in my corp that can do that.

Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Tres Farmer
As I already said.. then lower prereqs for everything across the board..
Battleships in 1 hour, Marauders in 2 days.. Titans within a week.
More people earlier in bigger gear means more and better pvp/pve, right?
It will be much more fun for all of us this way.
All can do all.
Yeah.
Way to go from exploration and cloaks getting the reqs lowered and invalidating survey 5 (which btw unlocks moon probes!\o/) to getting into a titan in a week. Overexaggerate much? ugh


So it would be ok to lower the prerequisites of a Hulk to Mining Barge IV and Astrogeology IV? That wouldn't be overexaggerated I guess.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.19 10:02:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Jonna Red
You can do all kinds of combat plexes with that. The fact that Radar and Archeology skills are now devalued is what people hate. Those are specializations. I don't complain that I cannot harvest those ABC gravimetric sides I find in 0.0 because I cba to train Mining Barge V and Astrogeology V to get a Hulk. I have people in my corp that can do that.



CCP, listen to the guy. Lower Hulk reqs to mining barge 4 (or even 3) and astrogeology to 4. Everyone will be able to mine after 1st week then! Everyone is happy \o/

/sarcasm

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.10.19 10:18:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Zeba on 19/10/2009 10:20:36

Originally by: Jonna Red
The fact that Radar and Archeology skills are now devalued is what people hate. Those are specializations.


Assume that everyone has 4/4/+3 learnings and the appropriate spread of attribute points.

Survey Rank 1 skill to level 5: 5ish days
Science Rank 1 skill to level 5: 5ish days
Electronics Upgrades Rank 2 skill to level 5: 10ish days.

Note that all these skills to level 5 open up other paths past the ones mentioned in this thread.

So 20 days total training time to open up those type of sites to exploit is a huge specialization training time investment? Oh please.. Laughing


Originally by: Jonna Red
So it would be ok to lower the prerequisites of a Hulk to Mining Barge IV and Astrogeology IV? That wouldn't be overexaggerated I guess.
Wat? Where has anyone official mentioned anywhere that anything other than those skills listed in the op are going to get adjusted? Link? Neutral

Y3R M4W
Posted - 2009.10.19 10:39:00 - [52]
 

I don't fully understand the logic behind these changes, I mean if they want to help new players get good stuff quickly why not remove all level V prerequisites, or maybe reduce all skill ranks to 1... all level Vs anyone? Rolling Eyes

Obviously that's exaggerated but I don't see how they can justify reducing the prerequisites for those skills alone, especially since a lot of them are actually quite helpful and sensible (electronics V for cloaking, energy management V for thermodynamics, etc).

Krxon Blade
Posted - 2009.10.19 10:42:00 - [53]
 

Dumbification or how to make player invested time next to worthless.

Direction 1: Hard EVE == less subscribers
Direction 2: Easy EVE == moar subscribers

Eeny, meeny, miny, mo,
To which direction will CCP go?

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.10.19 10:48:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Zeba on 19/10/2009 10:49:17
Originally by: Krxon Blade
Dumbification or how to make player invested time next to worthless.
Yes because the 20 days of effortless afk training it takes to run both types of sites is anywhere near comparable to the time and grindtastic effort it took to become a jedi before the nge. You guys need to try harder. Razz

Jonna Red
Posted - 2009.10.19 10:53:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Zeba

So 20 days total training time to open up those type of sites to exploit is a huge specialization training time investment? Oh please.. Laughing


A lot people didn't seem to bother training that.


Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Jonna Red
So it would be ok to lower the prerequisites of a Hulk to Mining Barge IV and Astrogeology IV? That wouldn't be overexaggerated I guess.
Wat? Where has anyone official mentioned anywhere that anything other than those skills listed in the op are going to get adjusted? Link? Neutral


That was just an example. I cannot exploit gravimetric sides because I do not train for mining. With this changes I would train it. Thats the reason why we this call "dumbing down". It makes a choice if to train something or not a no brainer.

I wasn't able to run my first plexes in lowsec solo because I had almost no combat skills. I trained that later. Now you just go straight for combat skills and train exploration skills on a day or two when you think this is something to try out.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.10.19 11:04:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 19/10/2009 11:06:28
Originally by: CCP Lemur
I fail to see how this is dumbing down EVE.

Well this was pretty much aswered by poeple for example
* lack of specialization promote solo playing ( i tried everything and i get bored and quit syndrom )

Originally by: CCP Lemur
It is at most less time spent waiting for skills. How is less waiting making it any easier or your words less undumb? You still have to have the same wits and insights to be successful.


This argument is just dumb. Why not drop requirment for titan since it will be less waiting time for skill and you still have to have the same wits and insights to be succesfull.

Why skills alltogether, since they are no consequences of choosing them.

Darriele
Minmatar
THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY
Posted - 2009.10.19 11:35:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Darriele on 19/10/2009 11:36:11
Do you all think that by relaxing some skill requirements does change a thing? To be competitive and effective in a "particular" domain you will always need those "particular" skills trained to maximum.
The changes in the prerequisites for some "skills" aren't such a big fuss, I see them as a new ISK sink, since more unprepared ppl will jump into the "hax/bomb/cloak/tackle/snipe/mine/exploration" bandwagon and get wasted faster than an "veteran max skilled pilot".

LE: corrections.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.19 11:44:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Darriele
Edited by: Darriele on 19/10/2009 11:36:11
Do you all think that by relaxing some skill requirements does change a thing? To be competitive and effective in a "particular" domain you will always need those "particular" skills trained to maximum.
The changes in the prerequisites for some "skills" aren't such a big fuss, I see them as a new ISK sink, since more unprepared ppl will jump into the "hax/bomb/cloak/tackle/snipe/mine/exploration" bandwagon and get wasted faster than an "veteran max skilled pilot".

LE: corrections.


Not really. Most of those people will train up famous "exploration", try it in hisec and get disappointed because HIsec exploration is just ****. I doubt that even 1% of them will try lowsec or 0.0. So as i said earlier: all it does is disappoints people. "I tried it all", "there is no point in joining corp, i can do everything myself", "this game is boring because there is nothing to explore where i play" etc. Its stuff you see almost every day on general discussion.

Draco Argen
Posted - 2009.10.19 12:14:00 - [59]
 

I'm Pro this move.
High end skills should be about improving your ability, not an entry to certain professions.
It makes the game much more appealing to new players and they get to experience new professions and try them out easily. Those with high end V's will always outperform the new players.

Although for the size of Most V's there probably should be a double bonus to justify it for bonuses alone. Otherwise V's are only useful as gateways to other skills that are truely a perfection of a profession as opposed to an entry.

Bombing, I decided to train up Bombardment V anyway (now) instead of waiting for Dominion. As i'm Caldari it makes sense to me. For other non missile races it wouldn't.

Darriele
Minmatar
THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY
Posted - 2009.10.19 12:30:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Darriele
Edited by: Darriele on 19/10/2009 11:36:11
Do you all think that by relaxing some skill requirements does change a thing? To be competitive and effective in a "particular" domain you will always need those "particular" skills trained to maximum.
The changes in the prerequisites for some "skills" aren't such a big fuss, I see them as a new ISK sink, since more unprepared ppl will jump into the "hax/bomb/cloak/tackle/snipe/mine/exploration" bandwagon and get wasted faster than an "veteran max skilled pilot".

LE: corrections.


Not really. Most of those people will train up famous "exploration", try it in hisec and get disappointed because HIsec exploration is just ****. I doubt that even 1% of them will try lowsec or 0.0. So as i said earlier: all it does is disappoints people. "I tried it all", "there is no point in joining corp, i can do everything myself", "this game is boring because there is nothing to explore where i play" etc. Its stuff you see almost every day on general discussion.


Honestly, what have in common some bunch of prerequisites and "joining" a corp ?
I do find this game boring from time to time, but I always seem to find something not "boring" to do.
Ppl will always join a community (corp) no matter what, why?! Because of human interactions.


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