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lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.10.18 04:24:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: xOm3gAx
Originally by: Zartanic
Edited by: Zartanic on 17/10/2009 19:35:45



There are certain posts that I tend to jump on, especially in the new player forums, as I think they contribute a lot to either stopping player's enjoying the game or put them off starting.

I think all the following are either wrong or extremely simplistic, so they may as well be wrong:





1. You cannot do anything worthwhile in this game without several weeks or even months training.
False - Condor + target painter - very useful
2. A character with high SP will always beat a character with low SP
False - I have killed higher sp players dozens of times and i've lost to lower sp players - yes it was solo
3. You need a lot of ISK to even get started.
False - frigs are cheap high end is maybe 400k and very effective at mining / ratting for the cost / risk ratio with low skills.
4. PVP is hard to get into and extremely expensive. You can't PVP in a cheap ship.
False - I pvp and win in t1 fitted frigs and cruisers, yes i prefer bc and bs however frigs and cruisers are often underestimated or used wrong.
5. Low and nul sec is boring and pointless (I say that myself sometimes, I must stop doing that)
This is only occasionally true - they both need variety and something done to increase conflict and player count.
6. You spend all your time travelling between systems and nothing else
with worm holes yes, with normal travel no not unless im going 25+ jumps cus then even with WTZ it sucks
7. Mining is the only way to earn ISK for noobs (some EVE reviews say this but they are several years out of date)
False, missions are also good income so are belt rats. Mining is just the most efficient until you can use lvl 3 missions which takes about 1 week at 2 hours a day 3 - 5 missions per day.
8. The game is taken over by Griefers
False - This only exists if someone is constantly bothered in a noob system. Stay in a noob system until you learn the ropes. Also, its not hard to fight back.
9 The game is taken over by Carebears
False - care bears only exist in high sec mostly.
10 You need a maths degree to do anything like research, trading or manufacturing.
False -you just need basic understanding of the mechanics. Attainable through trial and error. Manufacturing is easy. Just add up the cost of mins have enought o build something and tack on a ton of profit.
11. You cannot enjoy the game playing solo.
True - BUT Its an mmo not a solo game. Possible but not fun. This is true.
12. You cannot have fun in PVP in a cheap Frigate
False - this is fun and cheap. Yes you may lose alot but its still fun. OFC if u use the right frig you get some kills, also if you make them opportune.
13. The game has a very steep learning curve which is a major barrier to even starting
T/F - Not compared to when i started, however some players will always have problems.
14. PVP and PVE takes no skill, it's just point and click.
False - it does take skill to use transversal to your advantage and properly fit a ship. But it doesnt take much skill no.
15. You must train your learning skills as soon as possible.
False - You must only do this is you want to have the best SP/time ratio possible in the shortest time possible.








And still they keep biting!! Laughing

Holy crap it's a sni

Bunzan Cardinal
Ascendent.
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.10.18 04:50:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Bunzan Cardinal on 18/10/2009 04:52:16
Originally by: Arch Law
OP says: I think the following points are wrong.

Other ppl say: Dude, your points are wrong.

...




lol i thought i misread the OP after reading half the thread.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.10.18 04:58:00 - [33]
 

One of two possibilities to explain this phenomenon:

1. Blind leading the blind. A person who isn't sufficiently versed in EVE giving bad advice - non shocker of the century tbfh!

2. Subconsciously antagonistic towards new players, because they want them to put up with all the same hardships they did as a newbie, otherwise its "not fair". Thankfully, if anyone is truly spooked by any of those words, they probably lack the mental fortitude to advance the learning curve in any reasonable manner.

Either way, not really anybody's concern. Most newbs quit because they are incapable of playing a game which provides zero guidance on what to do and where to go outside of agent missions. Call it indoctrination from past MMOs. Treating everything as a sandbox is the way to have fun, but in the end, most people are more comfortable with a familiar structure.

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.10.18 07:08:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 18/10/2009 07:17:22

OP's points have been "tuned" so most of them contain both true and false elements.
Let's try again.
(note that I've used OP's list, but modified some of the points - this is *not* quoted material)

Mostly true:

1. You cannot do most things in this game without several weeks or even months training.
2. A character with high SP will has a major advantage over a character with low SP
4. Startng PvP early as a rookie will slow down establishing your character (ISK and Skills)
5. LowSec is boring and pointless uness you are a gankBunny
6. You spend far too much "dead time" travelling between systems
8. PvEers feel there are far too many Griefers in EvE.
9. GankBunnies feel there are far too many Carebears in EvE.
10. There are large "barriers to entry" for many PvE activities, like research, trading or manufacturing.
11. It is very difficult to establish yourself as a solo player outside highSec.
13. The game has a very steep learning curve which is a major barrier to even starting
14. PVE takes no skill, it's just point and click.
15. You must train your learning skills as soon as possible.

I think OP left out a number of EvE "rookie taxes", but I won't add anything to the list.


Mostly False:

4. PVP is extremely expensive.
5. Nul sec is pointless
14. PVP takes no skill, it's just point and click.


Pure "Strawmen". Nobody claims these:

3. You need a lot of ISK to even get started.
7. Mining is the only way to earn ISK for noobs (some EVE reviews say this but they are several years out of date)
12. You cannot have fun in PVP in a cheap Frigate


A problem which is identified can be solved. A problem denied cannot.

Griefers, "rookie taxes", game design errors "damage the game" in the sense of discouraging rookies.

Zeredek
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.18 09:38:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: lollerwaffle
Originally by: xOm3gAx
Originally by: Zartanic
Edited by: Zartanic on 17/10/2009 19:35:45



There are certain posts that I tend to jump on, especially in the new player forums, as I think they contribute a lot to either stopping player's enjoying the game or put them off starting.

I think all the following are either wrong or extremely simplistic, so they may as well be wrong:





1. You cannot do anything worthwhile in this game without several weeks or even months training.
False - Condor + target painter - very useful
2. A character with high SP will always beat a character with low SP
False - I have killed higher sp players dozens of times and i've lost to lower sp players - yes it was solo
3. You need a lot of ISK to even get started.
False - frigs are cheap high end is maybe 400k and very effective at mining / ratting for the cost / risk ratio with low skills.
4. PVP is hard to get into and extremely expensive. You can't PVP in a cheap ship.
False - I pvp and win in t1 fitted frigs and cruisers, yes i prefer bc and bs however frigs and cruisers are often underestimated or used wrong.
5. Low and nul sec is boring and pointless (I say that myself sometimes, I must stop doing that)
This is only occasionally true - they both need variety and something done to increase conflict and player count.
6. You spend all your time travelling between systems and nothing else
with worm holes yes, with normal travel no not unless im going 25+ jumps cus then even with WTZ it sucks
7. Mining is the only way to earn ISK for noobs (some EVE reviews say this but they are several years out of date)
False, missions are also good income so are belt rats. Mining is just the most efficient until you can use lvl 3 missions which takes about 1 week at 2 hours a day 3 - 5 missions per day.
8. The game is taken over by Griefers
False - This only exists if someone is constantly bothered in a noob system. Stay in a noob system until you learn the ropes. Also, its not hard to fight back.
9 The game is taken over by Carebears
False - care bears only exist in high sec mostly.
10 You need a maths degree to do anything like research, trading or manufacturing.
False -you just need basic understanding of the mechanics. Attainable through trial and error. Manufacturing is easy. Just add up the cost of mins have enought o build something and tack on a ton of profit.
11. You cannot enjoy the game playing solo.
True - BUT Its an mmo not a solo game. Possible but not fun. This is true.
12. You cannot have fun in PVP in a cheap Frigate
False - this is fun and cheap. Yes you may lose alot but its still fun. OFC if u use the right frig you get some kills, also if you make them opportune.
13. The game has a very steep learning curve which is a major barrier to even starting
T/F - Not compared to when i started, however some players will always have problems.
14. PVP and PVE takes no skill, it's just point and click.
False - it does take skill to use transversal to your advantage and properly fit a ship. But it doesnt take much skill no.
15. You must train your learning skills as soon as possible.
False - You must only do this is you want to have the best SP/time ratio possible in the shortest time possible.








And still they keep biting!! Laughing

Holy crap it's a sni


What? Is the sniper ba

Tenokiro
Posted - 2009.10.18 10:39:00 - [36]
 

I find the following to be true

Quote:
1. You cannot do anything worthwhile in this game without several weeks or even months training.

Ofcourse you can do something, but not anything actually worthwhile (end-game is all that counts for me)

Quote:
2. A character with high SP will always beat a character with low SP

Well that largely depends if the high SP player have done something usefull with his skills, but yea lets say you match a person with 10 mill SP versus someone with 100k... go figoure.

Quote:
3. You need a lot of ISK to even get started.

Perhaps not, but as in real life, you can't make money without having some already.

Quote:
4. PVP is hard to get into and extremely expensive. You can't PVP in a cheap ship.

Lets say your going to war, what would you rather bring as your weapon a wooden stick or a tank?

Quote:
11. You cannot enjoy the game playing solo.

Well I guess some people may enjoy playing solo, but they might aswell play another game.

Quote:
13. The game has a very steep learning curve which is a major barrier to even starting

There is a reason why this game does not have millions of people playing it, but I think it is better the way it is. If you doubt me then just look at the rookie chat.

Quote:
14. PVP and PVE takes no skill, it's just point and click.

Just like all other MMO's, once you know how the system works it's mearly a matter of who started out with the biggest boots.

Quote:
15. You must train your learning skills as soon as possible.

Unless you want to have a setback ofcourse, I doubt anyone would want to learn skills at 50% without having trained any learning skills.


And now for something else

Quote:
6. Many MMORPG players, in my opinion, are lazy and do not consider the learning experience part of the fun.


I find watching timers terribly boring, I imagine the game will be more interesting later on, once you are actually capable of dooing something other than go here and shoot things. I for one am glad that they reward me for not playing the game, it grants me so many more options that WoW or any of it's competitors ever did, like watching tv or clean the house.

EvE is playable for everyone, it is perhaps focusing a bit too much on those people who only have half and hour here and there throughout the day.

Sargeant Bash
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.10.18 11:14:00 - [37]
 

@Tenokiro - respect for spending time doing all that quoting! Wink

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2009.10.18 13:11:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Zartanic


4. EVE is seen as hardcore yet really it is not.




Eve is hardcore because you can kill a person and loot his corpse. Any game in which you can take/destroy hard earned equipment is hardcore not to mention podding. If you can manage an amazing feat where you pod a guy, know where his clone is, and pod him again. There is a devistating possibility he did not update clone that's XP loss. Clone updating is one of those things I think they need to emphasize to noob players. It nearly f'd me when I started out cause I didn't know it was there, neither was I aware of the SP hits I was taking from dying in my pods.

Eve is and always be a game for those that want a challenge, and like spaceships.

Truth be told. If they make it so you can loot the Corpse in WOW. I'd play that in a heartbeat. The EMOtears that would be shed, and the entire PvP dynamics in WOW would be completly changed. Course then again I would be sorry for the noob characters in the noob towns that so often get ****d by the 5person lvl80 gang that rolls in from time to time.

Anhur Shu
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.10.18 13:39:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Dagsalt
Originally by: Zartanic
Edited by: Zartanic on 17/10/2009 19:35:45



There are certain posts that I tend to jump on, especially in the new player forums, as I think they contribute a lot to either stopping player's enjoying the game or put them off starting.

I think all the following are either wrong or extremely simplistic, so they may as well be wrong:


*15 points*




Is it wrong for me to laugh at the people who are arguing with the OP saying that his points are wrong, when the whole reason behind his post is that the points he lists are wrong?

If you read the *whole post* before commenting, it makes you seem smarter too..

(Sorry, I'm just easy amused today)


^^ this Smile

I think everyone needs to sit back, relax, and actually go READ the post. OP is saying that these are myths.

lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.10.18 13:42:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Anhur Shu

^^ this Smile

I think everyone needs to sit back, relax, and actually go READ the post. OP is saying that these are myths.


Ssshhh!! Needs more bites 1st Laughing This is like the Gulfodaden thread that drew many many many pages of lulz Laughing

lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.10.18 13:44:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Zeredek

What? Is the sniper ba


I think I saw him over the

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.18 13:47:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 18/10/2009 13:48:48




Thanks for the replies. A few of you are so used to arguing on the forums you automatically assumed I was saying these things when I said the opposite. Kind of sweet really. But that doesn't matter to the replies.

To the poster that said they had true and false elements I agree, which is why I said 'extremely simplistic' to describe them too.

When I read other forums or talk to plays I'm trying to get to join they come out with one or more of the points I made in the list. It's damn frustrating because they got that from reading what others said or the wrong impression when they tried the trial.

It seems to me that a lot of players do not play EVE for the WRONG reasons. This is unlike any other game.

So my question again is:

1. Are these 'features' or impressions desirable to keep out the riff raff or keep the game unique, special, niche or for whatever reason.

2. Should CCP do even more to try and correct the errors. If so what can they do?

3. Should I give up and grab for my sniper gun?







Wiley Peterson
Posted - 2009.10.18 14:50:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Lemmy Kravitz
Originally by: Zartanic


4. EVE is seen as hardcore yet really it is not.




Eve is hardcore because you can kill a person and loot his corpse. Any game in which you can take/destroy hard earned equipment is hardcore not to mention podding. If you can manage an amazing feat where you pod a guy, know where his clone is, and pod him again. There is a devistating possibility he did not update clone that's XP loss. Clone updating is one of those things I think they need to emphasize to noob players. It nearly f'd me when I started out cause I didn't know it was there, neither was I aware of the SP hits I was taking from dying in my pods.

Eve is and always be a game for those that want a challenge, and like spaceships.

Truth be told. If they make it so you can loot the Corpse in WOW. I'd play that in a heartbeat. The EMOtears that would be shed, and the entire PvP dynamics in WOW would be completly changed. Course then again I would be sorry for the noob characters in the noob towns that so often get ****d by the 5person lvl80 gang that rolls in from time to time.


When I think of "hardcore" I still think of games where character death is permanent. So I guess that would make EVE "softcore." Maybe if eve add permanent death, fuel costs to travel, and food costs for your character to live ( so you couldn't leave the game too long without having a stockpile of food) then we could call it hardcore.

Tenokiro
Posted - 2009.10.18 15:01:00 - [44]
 

And even then you could take it a step further and in the end you would end up with (look outside your window) real life, whick makes you wonder why your playing a game in the first place. But yes I guess that permanent character death would pretty much describe a hardcore game, but I doubt that it would get very far sicne people would never actually live long enough to get anywhere, and those who did would be too scare to ever leave the rock they had crawled underneath.

Wiley Peterson
Posted - 2009.10.18 15:27:00 - [45]
 

I think the problem is that many people don't understand the sandbox concept. Most other major MMOs guide your character along a set path of progress, with heavy emphasis on NPC interaction. So when they get to EVE, they end up following the mission treadmill and wondering how long before they get to the good stuff. Following the mission treadmill also keeps them in the level-based mindset, such as going up in level automatically means bigger badder ships. They ignore that this is a skill based system, where if you jump into a battleship at the expense of core skills, you will not fair so well.

On the flipside a lot of EVE players who say things like "go play WoW" come off as elitist and rude. The fact that EVE is "lawless" to a degree and the fact that people are allowed to steal, scam and commit fraud against each other is a selling point. However, this is really anti-social behavior, and the perception that this is the norm, discourages new players. You can't have cooperative play in a game where everyone is your enemy. And the fact is, there are thousands of very nice, courteous players who are willing to help each other out.


I would also respond to the player that said trading and research have high barriers to entry. This is patently false. You can start trading right away in your noob ship, and make a profit. The only thing is opportunity cost, since it is more time efficient to run missions than carry small hauls long distances. But "carebear" activities have a far lower barrier to entry than pure combat professions, both in terms of ISK and skill time investment.

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.10.19 01:23:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Zartanic
<...>
It seems to me that a lot of players do not play EVE for the WRONG reasons. This is unlike any other game. <...>
1. Are these 'features' or impressions desirable to keep out the riff raff or keep the game unique, special, niche or for whatever reason.
2. Should CCP do even more to try and correct the errors. If so what can they do?
<....>


EvE could *easily* be made more "rookie-friendly" without changing the underlying characteristics of the game. The biggest constraints aren't technical though. At any given moment, the majority of players have been playing 6+ months, and have bought in to the standard myths. This makes it dangerous for CCP to make major changes quickly, unless existing players ask for changes. And what existing players consistently ask for is the means to make rookies' play even less fun.

What could they do? Step one: Test your assumptions. Consider the response styles for "polically correct" discussions like "remove/keep/change local" vs "politically incorrect" discussions like making implants survive podKill. You can't substitute memes and myths for thinking and expect to get anywhere.

Eve cannot improve because EvE players as a group are so afraid of changes they refuse to even discuss the way the game works.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.19 01:35:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 19/10/2009 01:41:21


EVE players are certainly a conservative bunch on average which has its advantages sometimes. It stops the game being like all the others, WOW clones. But one of the things that really stuck out for me when I first played was the terrible UI, people complaining about it but no one suggesting CCP implement a simple and free (for CCP, no licence fee) script so players can design their own interface and considerably improve the game experience with no change at all in game play.

I've not seen one post suggest this but a million on planets. Sod planets I want a usable UI first. It's also another reason why some new players do not continue with the game as they find the UI so irritating it puts them off before they even get started. My own overview is bugged to hell (a big problem when at war and you also want to identify negative standings) and the fleet info is next to useless. Hardly stuff of the future and its not what most modern MMORPG players expect. But I bet it will be the same in 10 years time.

Dirty Wizard
Posted - 2009.10.19 03:42:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 19/10/2009 03:43:37
We're arguing with each point which isn't solving anything. The issue isn't whether they're true or not (imo most aren't).

The real issue is that these ideas are mass perpetuated to new players. And what we perceive to be true often overrides the real truth. Added to the fact that bad gossip spread like wildfire while good gossip spread like molasses on a cold winters day.

It would take a monumental effort from the playerbase to disprove these points to each and every newbie. Or it would require an alteration of the game that shows these points are true/false. Either way it's an uphill battle.

There's no easy solution, but I have to agree it does need to be addressed.

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.10.19 04:20:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 19/10/2009 04:22:41

@Zartanic
I agree about the UI, and that significant improvement is possible, though it's perhaps not as high a priority with me.
My personal focus is all the unnecessary "rookie taxes" like the attribute-enhancing "Learning" skills, implants, rigs and L5 skills as pre-reqs for basic shipFits, the T2 mess, etc. But try to discuss *any* of these things just attracts unthinking denial and pathetic insults.

I don't think EvE can change until EvE players stop believing they and the game are somehow "better" than other MMO games and gamers.


@Dirty Wizard
Most of those points are true enough, and telling rookies otherwise won't change thst. Most could be fixed too. But not if everyone decides to claim they aren't issues. A problem denied cannot be solved.

Dirty Wizard
Posted - 2009.10.19 04:26:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 19/10/2009 04:31:11
Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 19/10/2009 04:30:07
Originally by: Gsptlsnz
@Dirty Wizard
Most of those points are true enough, and telling rookies otherwise won't change thst. Most could be fixed too. But not if everyone decides to claim they aren't issues. A problem denied cannot be solved.
Heh, I'm intrigued. Seriously.

I'll yield that some of these points are valid. Specifically these:

1. You cannot do anything worthwhile in this game without several weeks or even months training.
2. A character with high SP will always beat a character with low SP.
(In a PvP situation I would agree with this point)
3. You need a lot of ISK to even get started.
11. You cannot enjoy the game playing solo.
13. The game has a very steep learning curve which is a major barrier to even starting
15. You must train your learning skills as soon as possible.
(I don't believe it's necessary, but that's the common belief going around)


What sort of fixes would you apply if you were in charge?

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.19 05:25:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 19/10/2009 05:30:11
Edited by: Zartanic on 19/10/2009 05:27:24
Originally by: Dirty Wizard
Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 19/10/2009 04:31:11
Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 19/10/2009 04:30:07
Originally by: Gsptlsnz
@Dirty Wizard
Most of those points are true enough, and telling rookies otherwise won't change thst. Most could be fixed too. But not if everyone decides to claim they aren't issues. A problem denied cannot be solved.
Heh, I'm intrigued. Seriously.

I'll yield that some of these points are valid. Specifically these:

1. You cannot do anything worthwhile in this game without several weeks or even months training.
2. A character with high SP will always beat a character with low SP.
(In a PvP situation I would agree with this point)
3. You need a lot of ISK to even get started.
11. You cannot enjoy the game playing solo.
13. The game has a very steep learning curve which is a major barrier to even starting
15. You must train your learning skills as soon as possible.
(I don't believe it's necessary, but that's the common belief going around)


What sort of fixes would you apply if you were in charge?


That's the problem with the points, it all depends on perception and expectations. I solo'd for months very happily and had a blast, I may do so again. The reason I do that is in my last game I was heavily involved for years running Guilds and Raids and all the rest of it, its great to be alone for for once. Others would hate being solo and I appreciate that, its a MMORPG after all and I certainly agree the best thing a new player can do is get into a good guild as soon as possible.

Also define 'worthwhile' To me if I have had fun its worthwhile, even if that's jumping in a cheap frigate and just attacking something. Others would disagree of course.

But as you say it only has to be said once and a negative view spreads like wildfire and stays for years even if they were once true (look at Aion, I suspect all the botitng and spam will kill that game in the West irrespective of the player's experience and even if they fix the problem)

When I came back a few months ago I was very impressed with the new tutorials and the epic arc was great to teach new mechanics in digestible chunks. CCP are trying, that's obvious, but it seems to be an uphill struggle. We have excellent guides and many players ingame have altruistic objectives (look at Eve University et al) I know no other game that offers this. So why is the same old crap believed by so many which stops them even trying to start the game?





Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.10.19 05:29:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 19/10/2009 05:36:50

DW - here's a modified list (copied from an earlier post I made in this thread). I think these versions are "mostly true":

1. You cannot do most things in this game without several weeks or even months training.
2. A character with high SP will has a major advantage over a character with low SP
4. Startng PvP early as a rookie will slow down establishing your character (ISK and Skills)
5. LowSec is boring and pointless uness you are a gankBunny
6. You spend far too much "dead time" travelling between systems
8. PvEers feel there are far too many Griefers in EvE.
9. GankBunnies feel there are far too many Carebears in EvE.
10. There are large "barriers to entry" for many PvE activities, like research, trading or manufacturing.
11. It is very difficult to establish yourself as a solo player outside highSec.
13. The game has a very steep learning curve which is a major barrier to even starting
14. PVE takes no skill, it's just point and click.
15. You must train your learning skills as soon as possible.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm not prepared to make serious suggestions for all the obvous and easily addressed "rookie-influencing" flaws in EvE. I will happily paticipate if a thread gets started though.

Here's one obvious thing (it's not original, and AFAIK it's the only one that won't attract the attention of the lunatic fringe of EvE conservatism):

15. You must train your learning skills as soon as possible.
Learning skills are just crazy. Even the oft-recommended 5/4 takes far more SP than the 100% bonus of 1.6 million points. Any way you figure it, you need to spend 75% or more of the bonus on Learning skills, or plan to stop playing in 3 months or so. Stupid. If you *don't* take them early, you'll realize you should have at about the same time you're being blackmailed into L5 skills for T2 gear. You notice you've fallen behind in your SP total, and that you *really* want to train 1 to 1.5 million SP in Learning skills, but it has to be at "1/2 speed". I wonder if CCP know what proportion of people who don't train Learning skills early stay with EvE?

Suggestion: Remove Learning skills. Credit everyone who's trained them with exactly that number of SP to use for anything they like. Increase everyone's learning rate by something close to Learning 5/4.


This is certainly more than is appropriate for this thread, so I won't add further suggestions here, nor respond to comments (regardless of whether they are positive or negative :)

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.19 05:35:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 19/10/2009 06:05:15

By learning skills I was meaning all of them ASAP and go and buy ISK to get expensive implants. Terrible advice until a player knows he likes the game. And if it means he cant even fly a Destroyer for weeks they will quit with boredom.

I think learning skills should be removed anyway and replaced with something else, anything would be better. The one time you're trying to learn the game and all excited about learning new stuff these skills come along with no obvious benefit at all and trip up any plans you have.

As to your other points:

1. You cannot do most things in this game without several weeks or even months training.

Join RvB for PVP on day one. I was manufacturing and doing level 3's in a few weeks and scanning/exploring soon after. So yes you can do a lot and in the meantime you do need to learn the game. Because other games reward players for simply being able to hit a button many come with expectations of instant and regular rewards they have been programmed to think that way. The fun of getting to a goal and finding interesting things to do while they get there is lost to them.

2. A character with high SP will has a major advantage over a character with low SP

No, big fallacy. It all depends on where those SP's are and the player experience. The biggest drawback for a new player is lack of knowledge, not SP's. But that's fine as its a game and accepted.

4. Startng PvP early as a rookie will slow down establishing your character (ISK and Skills)

Not really. When I PVP I lose about 2 hours a week, big deal compared to the fun I get. You can PVP with cheap implants and many do in expensive implants, you just have to know how to do that. You can PVP ina Frigate which, with Insurance, you can get 5 fully fitted Rifters with named mods for 1 million ISK easily. I agree it helps to have an ISK buffer though but really a player can do that while learning the basics of the game.


5. LowSec is boring and pointless uness you are a gankBunny

Agree but mainly due to the scanning spam I need to do. Boring for me.

6. You spend far too much "dead time" travelling between systems

Yes and it takes time to work out that's when you do your stuff like check orders etc. For new players they don't have that organised. They also won't have established their mission hubs etc.

8. PvEers feel there are far too many Griefers in EvE.

True although that's what attracted me to the game, I was sick of all the 'nice guys' who were really scum bags. At least in EVE scum bags are honest about it.

9. GankBunnies feel there are far too many Carebears in EvE.

No comment, I think the whole discussion is silly:)

10. There are large "barriers to entry" for many PvE activities, like research, trading or manufacturing.

Disagree although the UI makes it complicated so it seems inaccessible. It's actually not that hard when you know it. You don't need many skills to be reasonably competitive at a low level.

11. It is very difficult to establish yourself as a solo player outside highSec.

Agree but its something I'd like to do and many do it successfully, is just not for new players. Also hopefully the new patch will sort that to some extent.

13. The game has a very steep learning curve which is a major barrier to even starting

Yes. I like that as its fun to me not a barrier but many people won't see it that way. I don't think EVE should ever compromise on that except to stop making the whole game mechanics so opaque with the UI. (Ironically WOW is very complex at a certain level but Blizz are very smart in hiding it except for those who want to see it, and it's there in plain sight then)

14. PVE takes no skill, it's just point and click.

True. Maybe sleepers will improve that but I don't think CCP ever want PVE to be interesting.

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.10.19 06:56:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 19/10/2009 08:16:07

@Zartanic
Intro comment: If I'd tried for a full list there would be additional items.
I've commented only points where we might not be in full accord.

1. See 4 and 15. I dislike this tradeoff intensely, especially because I don't see any benefits, and I believe it would be easy to "fix". Remember that each SP you get at 2 million is 20 times as useful as an extra SP at 40 million SP.
2. At 1 million SP you can barely fit both tank and a full set of weapons on a Rifter. I doubt you're better than 60% of the fighting power of a rifter with rigs and T2 modules. Try it on an alt. Of course the gap gets less and less, but even at 4-5 million SP you're well behind. This is a result of CCP's ship and module design, and is related to the way SP and the economy work. It's not an accident, and it could easily be addressed.
4. Rookies are always short of ISK. Alts not ofc, so high-SP players forget. Implants? It's not politically correct to discuss them, but the problem is still real.
13. It's not the basics, like fitting a ship. It's all the weird little tricks and the vast game knowledge you need for even basic PvP. Only EvE Uni and RvsB (both fantastic initiatives) offer a practical learning path. Both restrict your options (not in an unfair way ofc). I decided to defer PvP until I can solo L3 wormholes. But I would have preferred to do both PvP and basic character setup at the same time. Others may make other choices of course. Why not allow for both? It offers a benefit to everyone (even the gankBunnies would get more action :) without any disadvantage.

Azirapheal
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.10.19 07:36:00 - [55]
 

1. You cannot do anything worthwhile in this game without several weeks or even months training.

false, my first kill was at 2 days old (with 42000 sp) against a t2 fitted ferox. i used superior tactics tand the fact that i had him scrambled to let stationguns kill him when he tried to abuse the old gang mechanic to kill me the most valuable memebers in any pvp op are those that can tackle and not much else.. i always used to provide these "newbies" with free fitted ships to keep them going

2. A character with high SP will always beat a character with low SP

a character with high SP has choice and can do many things. but can only do some things up to a point. any noob that specialises in navigation and interceptors and chooses one to get t2 weapons for and max out... will be just as good as me with that ship. i have level 5 skills that give me a 1-2% edge in some areas... but my crow is as good as a specialised noobs crow

3. You need a lot of ISK to even get started.

ive never had more than 400m isk in my wallet at once.... and usually have sub 50m depending on how my latest scam/ransom goes

4. PVP is hard to get into and extremely expensive. You can't PVP in a cheap ship.

see point one... ship i was flying was a bleeder fit punisher with autocannons

5. Low and nul sec is boring and pointless (I say that myself sometimes, I must stop doing that)

lowsec markets were killed by wtz. and any skill in dodging the camps was reduced to a lottery which is why im now after 3 years raising my sec. i want to flip cans and grief people or merc instead. and i hated pos games.... looking forwards to taking swarms of nublets out to zero zero to just annoy the ruling powers

6. You spend all your time travelling between systems and nothing else

used to be the case but now you alt is never more than 15 minutes from jita


7. Mining is the only way to earn ISK for noobs (some EVE reviews say this but they are several years out of date)

ive never ever ever mined

8. The game is taken over by Griefers

hmmm. im a griefer and i havent taken over... mainly due to the overabundance of highsec and my inability to source lowsec market mods


9 The game is taken over by Carebears

while i do think that it should not be possible to make more than 10m a day doing highsec missions im not going to knock the way someone wants to play, after all they support this game that i love too. this will not stop me from doing my level best to grief them and ninja salvage them and smack talk them in local though... as this is my playing style

10 You need a maths degree to do anything like research, trading or manufacturing.

i actually think this is true although im starting to get a grasp of trading

11. You cannot enjoy the game playing solo. wrong....

12. You cannot have fun in PVP in a cheap Frigate wrong

13. The game has a very steep learning curve which is a major barrier to even starting google the mmo learning curves graph

14. PVP and PVE takes no skill, it's just point and click. i hate people that say this. gb2WOW ;)

SomebodyKickedMyDog
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.10.19 20:51:00 - [56]
 

opinions are like *******s: everyone's got one; and they all stink. here's mine:

1. You cannot do anything worthwhile in this game without several weeks or even months training.

what's worthwhile is subjective and a bit vague, so it's hard to comment on this one. although i will say that i didn't start winning fights until i had some decent training under my belt, and especially after i started fitting t2 mods.

2. A character with high SP will always beat a character with low SP


all things being equal, of course a higher SP char will always beat a lower SP char. it's straight up math. the thing is, though, all things are never equal. a lower sp char has a chance if the higher sp char has a poor setup, or uses poor tactics, or has some other disadvantage (low resists to the damage type that the lower sp char is dealing).

but at the same time, i would think that as a char's sp increases, these types of mistakes decrease, given the player's additional knowledge.

3. You need a lot of ISK to even get started.

i wouldn't see why a new player needs a lot of isk when they don't even really know what they're doing yet. Razz and lots of isk won't even really be useful without the skills to use the ships and mods it'd go towards.

4. PVP is hard to get into and extremely expensive. You can't PVP in a cheap ship.

without others to help you along, i do think pvp is hard to get into. heck, the game in general is hard to get into; there's so much to learn. new players don't know about optimal (and fall off) ranges, tracking, sig radius, damage types, etc, let alone the different ways to tank a ship, how to best tank a ship, and of course the long list of mods. but of course this complexity is one of the great things about eve.

as far as money:

* you can pvp in a cheap ship if you don't mind dying a lot (well, that may be true even in an expensive ship)
* you can pvp in a cheap ship if you're with a fleet
* you can pvp in a cheap ship against other cheap ships (or opponents with less experience)

but i won't say that pvp isn't expensive. it is. at least for me. maybe that's because i like to solo a lot so i lose a lot of ships and burn through isk. Sad in fact, i would dare to guess that the cost of losing ships is why there isn't less blobbing and more pvp in general.

5. Low and nul sec is boring and pointless (I say that myself sometimes, I must stop doing that)

lowsec can be boring. i spend far too long sometimes just trying to find someone to engage (against whom i have at least a reasonable chance of winning solo). but it has so much potential Cool

i haven't really spent much time in 0.0, except for a little ratting. i think i'll check it out some more, though.

6. You spend all your time travelling between systems and nothing else


traveling is one of my pet peeves. it seems that it takes so long to do anything in eve, and traveling just adds to that.

13. The game has a very steep learning curve which is a major barrier to even starting

i would agree. there's a reason for that funny learning curve graphic.

14. PVP and PVE takes no skill, it's just point and click.

yes and no. it takes knowledge, but not reflex-based skill.

15. You must train your learning skills as soon as possible.

get rid of learning skills altogether! meh.

Belid Hagen
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.10.19 21:09:00 - [57]
 

I do not accept the premise of your argument - undock that rifter and head for lowsec/0.0

Crop Circle
Posted - 2009.10.20 00:02:00 - [58]
 

I'm one weeks old and am about to make my first billion if all goes wellRolling Eyes scammingShocked you might ask and the answer is noLaughing come check out Juunigaishi stargate in Uedama solar systemCool gm's are welcome tooEmbarassed

The AEther
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.10.20 00:31:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: The AEther on 20/10/2009 00:31:40
Originally by: Anhur Shu
Originally by: Dagsalt
Is it wrong for me to laugh at the people who are arguing with the OP saying that his points are wrong, when the whole reason behind his post is that the points he lists are wrong?
If you read the *whole post* before commenting, it makes you seem smarter too..
^^ this Smile
I think everyone needs to sit back, relax, and actually go READ the post. OP is saying that these are myths.

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Arch Law
OP says: I think the following points are wrong.
Other ppl say: Dude, your points are wrong.

I thought it was too cute to tell them, aww look at the little forum nublets who cant read good and poast good too Embarassed

Originally by: lollerwaffle
And still they keep biting!! Laughing
Holy crap it's a sni

Originally by: lollerwaffle
Ssshhh!! Needs more bites 1st Laughing This is like the Gulfodaden thread that drew many many many pages of lulz Laughing

The OP has asked in his original post at the very bottom:
Originally by: Zartanic
...Does anyone think some of the above is correct or even a desirable feature? Should CCP do more to try and stop these fallacies and how could they do that?


Players going over these points one by one are simply expressing their opinion on the myths he listed, either agreeing or disagreeing, and not telling the OP that he is wrong.

I know you guys have trained reading comprehension level 1 because you have shown that you have read the top part of original post. Clearly it is time to train reading comprehension level 2 and read the bottom part of it as well Wink

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.20 01:58:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 20/10/2009 01:59:07


...and it does not matter if people think I believe the points as it comes to the same thing anyway most of the time.

Anyway, of the games I have played EVE is possibly the most misunderstood and it intrigues me as to why. CCP will have known all this a long time ago and it's not rocket science. I personally think the UI is a major factor as the take up of this game is very low and I know from experience fighting the UI to try and get the most basic info can be a nightmare. I really like the game but I have logged off many times due to frustration or losing interest over tying to find or do something I consider basic. A new player would simply go elsewhere.


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